Faxneld: Satanic Feminism

Discussion on literature other than by the Star of Azazel.
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Re: Faxneld: Satanic Feminism

Postby Cancer » Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:12 am

Red Bird wrote:But the problem is, that fighting against nature can be more oppressing than accepting it to some point and oppression often leads to violence in the end.
Yes, this is exactly what I was saying; a blunt yet apt way to put it. The striving to see a human being as pure subject can be compared to the changes that technological development causes in our self-understanding. We are no longer so tightly bound to a certain place - to the extended body that nature near us could be. We can much more easily change our identity - in fact, the very concept of "identity" suggests that we live in a society where radical-ish self-determination is expected of everyone. We often don't have to work physically. And all of this is great, of course. Yet it also disconnects people from the basis of their living, makes then freischwebende, as Heidegger sneered almost a hundred years ago. That I can eat, say, an orange and have absolutely no idea where it came from (and how many slave laborers were worked to death on that particular farm) can be argued to undermine the consistency and meaningfulness of my life. It certainly should undermine my sense of self-worth. To have every product (physical and psychological) available anytime, anywhere, is the previously referenced negativity of reason - negative freedom - brought into practice. Few people notice what a Faustian endeavor our society is built on! For the ultimate form of this escape from matter (Mater...) is of course something like transhumanism (a technological, not theurgic, transhumanism). In the crystal spires of global capitalism clinical immortality is a completely believable idea.

Of course (even non-occult/spiritual) feminist thought can also be conceptualized precisely as opposition to the subjugation of nature both inner and outer. It often is, which is a relief. Feminism should participate in ”stuffing our hands back into the primordial dirt”! And yet it far too often manifests itself as a neurosis of cleanliness, especially in theoretically inclined people who do not belong in its original interest group, like me.
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Re: Faxneld: Satanic Feminism

Postby Cerastes » Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:47 pm

Smaragd wrote: I'm not sure I follow the conversation accurately and if this got answered already. Anyway if this knot refers partly to how I expressed the language of abrahamic religions being completely different thing, I'd like to point out that the images that are communicated in religious myths usually refers to these timeless beings and to the charge between them as they are, so when political questions try to obstruct these models, the only thing such act can do is reverse the polarity in the outer forms. This to me is a dead end and a failure in facing the real problems behind all the hassle. But this is quite the extreme case and in all the good unselfish will that is circulating in feminist agendas will give chances for new perspectives caused by the flipping polarity.

Do you see this polarity flip necessary? I myself am not sure, but then again I'm actually quite ascetic and detached of the culture to have a say in this. Partly it seems almost violent and forced, but that's maybe just the one careless and scared current that usually takes it's place when something as big as feminism sweeps over. I wonder if these problems might have been dealt faster without these flippings by just channeling the female arcetype with greater enthusiasm. But then again the problems are spread on so many different layers that for example allowing outer female to embrace inner man is a cultural "problem" and might be doomed to be dealt as such.

Questons like these makes one find creative ways to use magic.
Yes, this pretty much matches my thoughts.
I don’t think the polarity flipping is necessary or good for society. Actually it is quite harmful, because –like you said- it is done by force and pressure. It seems more like they are erasing polarities anyway.

Sometimes I take a look around from the bird's-eye perspective. It’s a hedonistic, idealistic, materialistic and artificial world. Everyone wants to have it all and it is never enough. That is what causes a lot of hate and even passive/active violence including the need to put others down. In my interpretation, this is also what pushed modern feminism ad absurdum. The most frustrated and aggressive people are often the ones who can’t find their core within this confusing maze of internal and external expectations. Of course this is a result of oppressing the female archetype –including death. To find yourself and your own energies you necessarily need to let something else die and no, you cannot have it all.
Cancer wrote:Yes, this is exactly what I was saying; a blunt yet apt way to put it. The striving to see a human being as pure subject can be compared to the changes that technological development causes in our self-understanding. We are no longer so tightly bound to a certain place - to the extended body that nature near us could be. We can much more easily change our identity - in fact, the very concept of "identity" suggests that we live in a society where radical-ish self-determination is expected of everyone. We often don't have to work physically. And all of this is great, of course. Yet it also disconnects people from the basis of their living, makes then freischwebende, as Heidegger sneered almost a hundred years ago. That I can eat, say, an orange and have absolutely no idea where it came from (and how many slave laborers were worked to death on that particular farm) can be argued to undermine the consistency and meaningfulness of my life. It certainly should undermine my sense of self-worth. To have every product (physical and psychological) available anytime, anywhere, is the previously referenced negativity of reason - negative freedom - brought into practice. Few people notice what a Faustian endeavor our society is built on! For the ultimate form of this escape from matter (Mater...) is of course something like transhumanism (a technological, not theurgic, transhumanism). In the crystal spires of global capitalism clinical immortality is a completely believable idea.

Of course (even non-occult/spiritual) feminist thought can also be conceptualized precisely as opposition to the subjugation of nature both inner and outer. It often is, which is a relief. Feminism should participate in ”stuffing our hands back into the primordial dirt”! And yet it far too often manifests itself as a neurosis of cleanliness, especially in theoretically inclined people who do not belong in its original interest group, like me.
Interesting, that you mention Heideggers freischwebende Subjekte. In fact this is quite suitable for the current situation. It’s ironic that influence of the outer world on the individual grows if it denies it. People tell me all the time how strong and independent they are, but according to my experience you become more independent by accepting your dependence and you become stronger by accepting a certain kind of devotion. Quite often there is no direct way for an aim because everything is bound together.

You are right. What we call freedom is not freedom at all. We will have to pay our dues for the luxury we live in.
Sometimes I like to sleep in the forest. Sure it is cold and not very comfortable but I enjoy the cold because this is what we lost. The influence of nature and the sensitivity of what is happening around us. You can’t find this on Youtube.

Cutting the connection with “Magna Mater” is the problems core and it will not be erased by political statements because it is not a political problem.
My opinion on this is strongly connected with my own path of course and I’m not sure if it works for other people too. Finding this connection automatically leads to a more sustained life. Something that cannot be reached by political or social pressure.
But we are heading in another direction right now and I don’t think it is possible to just turn around.
obnoxion wrote:I am so happy the answer was satisfying, because the topic is so vast and full of subtleties! I just really enjoy these forum discussions, and that's why I write so often. Most days I have a few moments to write, but almost never a long enought time to write as clearly as I would like to. So I just try to keep the conversations going, and offer something interesting as often as possible. Also, I find it especially stimulating when we have a new and active writer on the forum, such as you, dear Red Bird.
To be perfectly honest I usually hate internet forums.
I most cases it is just a bunch of people fighting about who is right on a certain topic. Gladly this doesn't seem to be the case here and there are very specific, unusual structures of communication. (This might come from a high group coherence but I don't think this is the only reason)
So I'm happy to help you keeping the conversation going even if it is challenging my language skills.
“Granny Weatherwax was not lost. She wasn't the kind of person who ever became lost. It was just that, at the moment, while she knew exactly where SHE was, she didn't know the position of anywhere else.”
(Terry Pratchett, Wyrd Sisters)
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Re: Faxneld: Satanic Feminism

Postby obnoxion » Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:34 am

Red Bird wrote: To be perfectly honest I usually hate internet forums.
I most cases it is just a bunch of people fighting about who is right on a certain topic. Gladly this doesn't seem to be the case here and there are very specific, unusual structures of communication. (This might come from a high group coherence but I don't think this is the only reason)
Me too! I have three forums that I follow, and this is the only one of them I write to. It is not a given that we will have these forums up forever, so let's enjoy them while we can.
One day of Brahma has 14 Indras; his life has 54 000 Indras. One day of Vishnu is the lifetime of Brahma. The lifetime of Vishnu is one day of Shiva.
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Re: Faxneld: Satanic Feminism

Postby Nefastos » Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:05 pm

Red Bird wrote:Yes, the problem with the passivity/activity concept is that passivity is often confused with laziness or something that has less influence.
The feminine energy is what I would describe as diffuse, unbound and floating but also relentless, cleaning and very present. As you said, this is is closely connected to death.
The picture of the sun symbol in your books seems accurate. Is there an English version available? (Learning Finnish causes depression so I’d rather not try that again)


Ah, so that's the reason why all the Finns are melacholics.

Sadly no, the first appearance was in the book of mine called Magna Mater, which most likely will not be translated in English for some time. Later I built on that e.g. in the text Fohat, which is part of the alreadly alpha-translated book that must, however, go through another editorial check to be be readied for publication.

Red Bird wrote:Finding the masculinity of death is a very inspiring task. The methods would be highly interesting but this is definitely too much content for this topic and I’m trying not to annoy everyone with my curiosity.


In the day before the last, I was sitting on a picturesque spot near the water at Töölönlahti, under a salix alba reading Dyczkowski's great A Journey in the World of Tantras. It came to my mind to check this forum from my phone & I saw that you had just posted this question. Since the page I was reading was about this "masculine death", I photographed it to be added here. On the previous page, this text about our "absolute masculine Saturn" begins thus:

Dyczkowski wrote:Remeniscent of the early identifications of the Brahman with Space, the image carries over into the Tantras where this transcendetal emptiness is the Sky (variously called cyoman, kha, or âkâsha). Despite the logical contradictions, which cannot anyway affect it, the supreme Void is located, as it were, at the end of a long series of lower more 'concrete" principles. The Siddhânta reserves this level for the Siva principle. Similarly the Kaula Tantras of the Kubjikâ school praise Bhairava, the wrathful form of Siva, as the Void which, although above all things and supremely vacuous, is the the foundation that sustains all things:

I praise that Bhairava who is eternal bliss, supreme, tranquil, formless (niskala), free of defects; beyond the firmament he is the supreme Void. Superior to the supreme, tranquil, pure, extremely pure, I praise that Bhairava who sustains the whole universe.


Bhairava.jpg
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Re: Faxneld: Satanic Feminism

Postby Cancer » Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:15 pm

Red Bird wrote:Interesting, that you mention Heideggers freischwebende Subjekte. In fact this is quite suitable for the current situation. It’s ironic that influence of the outer world on the individual grows if it denies it. People tell me all the time how strong and independent they are, but according to my experience you become more independent by accepting your dependence and you become stronger by accepting a certain kind of devotion. Quite often there is no direct way for an aim because everything is bound together.

You are right. What we call freedom is not freedom at all. We will have to pay our dues for the luxury we live in.
Sometimes I like to sleep in the forest. Sure it is cold and not very comfortable but I enjoy the cold because this is what we lost. The influence of nature and the sensitivity of what is happening around us. You can’t find this on Youtube.

Cutting the connection with “Magna Mater” is the problems core and it will not be erased by political statements because it is not a political problem.
My opinion on this is strongly connected with my own path of course and I’m not sure if it works for other people too. Finding this connection automatically leads to a more sustained life. Something that cannot be reached by political or social pressure.
But we are heading in another direction right now and I don’t think it is possible to just turn around.
I differ from what is probably the majority on this forum in that I actually do see these kinds of problems as also political. Or maybe it's better to say that I would like politics to mean also the area on which these kinds of problems manifest - that I insist on using the word "politics" in a deeper and broader sense than what is the (depression-inducing) norm. I'm very much inspired by people who are both spiritually and politically active, like William Blake, whose prophecies depict the French and American revolutions and who was, so to speak, a feminist, although of course the word wasn't in use then. My views on "worldliness", and on its relation to what occultists call their work or path, are one of the reasons for my leaving the Star of Azazel about two years ago. I still think the brotherhood's impact on the world is tremendously positive, and I understand why most of the people attracted to it abhor "politics" - quotation marks used because clicktivism on social media and voting for party X are hardly going to even postpone the environmental (and human) catastrophes that are already underway.

Such things as randomly sleeping outside, in a forest for instance, are important, however insignificant they might sometimes seem. Learning to cope with discomfort, loneliness, and poverty - finding and sharing the uplifting qualities in these - are part of the meager hope that humankind has. This can also be seen in connection with the thought of death's femininity.

About negative freedom: it is true in a restricted sense that it’s ”not freedom”, as you say, not the best and deepest thing that could be meant by this word. Yet it is an indispensable element in this truer freedom. One indeed becomes more independent by accepting dependence on certain things (such as the tradition of ones thought or the economical basis of ones society), but one must already be negatively free to be able to truly, self-determinedly accept these things. To freely choose the circumstances one has ended up in is the paradoxical formula of meaning(fulness). I for example am always in the process of consciously affirming my affiliation with a certain kind of masculinity, one that has the anima as its energetic core. I have not decided to be thus affiliated, but sometimes it is as if I could retroactively make it my decision to be. In a similar way, you seem to be choosing your type of pre-existing femininity as a beautiful ideal; if you were identical with it, however, not at all ”pure subject” or ”freischwebende”, there could be no ideal or beauty. To even be able to say ”I am a woman / man,” one must experience the gender in question as partly external.

All of this might get needlessly complicated (especially in comparison with your rather more concise style :D), but I’ll take the risk of slipping into rambling because I also teach myself by writing. That I have someone this articulate and perceptive to write to is a privilege.
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Re: Faxneld: Satanic Feminism

Postby Cerastes » Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:56 pm

Nefastos wrote:Ah, so that's the reason why all the Finns are melacholics.
Grammar-induced melancholy? Sounds legit, we might be up to something here. You should write all your books in English in order to avoid this. Of course I’m not recommending this out of self-interest… noooo I’m just worried about your well-being.
Nefastos wrote:In the day before the last, I was sitting on a picturesque spot near the water at Töölönlahti, under a salix alba reading Dyczkowski's great A Journey in the World of Tantras. It came to my mind to check this forum from my phone & I saw that you had just posted this question. Since the page I was reading was about this "masculine death", I photographed it to be added here. On the previous page, this text about our "absolute masculine Saturn" begins thus:
Thank you very much for the book page. I’ve been looking for new literature anyway and almighty google says it’s a good one.
Cancer wrote:My views on "worldliness", and on its relation to what occultists call their work or path, are one of the reasons for my leaving the Star of Azazel about two years ago. I still think the brotherhood's impact on the world is tremendously positive, and I understand why most of the people attracted to it abhor "politics" - quotation marks used because clicktivism on social media and voting for party X are hardly going to even postpone the environmental (and human) catastrophes that are already underway.
Oh, you are a former member? There is nothing wrong about being politically active if you can handle both –"worldliness", and spirituality. I couldn’t, so I’ve decided to stop trying to change the world. Otherwise it ends up with the worst kind of misanthropy. But maybe you are able to handle this better. Would you describe yourself as a feminist?
Cancer wrote:I for example am always in the process of consciously affirming my affiliation with a certain kind of masculinity, one that has the anima as its energetic core. I have not decided to be thus affiliated, but sometimes it is as if I could retroactively make it my decision to be. In a similar way, you seem to be choosing your type of pre-existing femininity as a beautiful ideal; if you were identical with it, however, not at all ”pure subject” or ”freischwebende”, there could be no ideal or beauty. To even be able to say ”I am a woman / man,” one must experience the gender in question as partly external.
Femininity to me has not much to do with what what you call "worldiness". It was very hard - and painful- to find for me but now that I found it, I love it. As you already found out it was much easier for me to channel the masculine archetype. But I always idenfied myself as a heterosexual woman and I still do. There was never a doubt about that. And according to womens rights I never had the feeling of being opressed or disrespected. So I don't really get this gender problem.
Cancer wrote:All of this might get needlessly complicated (especially in comparison with your rather more concise style :D), but I’ll take the risk of slipping into rambling because I also teach myself by writing. That I have someone this articulate and perceptive to write to is a privilege.
My communication is a very straight-forward. (masculine achetype all over again..) Sometimes people confuse this with rejection because they are talking for half an hour and I’m answering with few words. ;) But don’t worry I enjoy reading your comments, it’s an interesting perspective.
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(Terry Pratchett, Wyrd Sisters)
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Re: Faxneld: Satanic Feminism

Postby Nefastos » Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:59 pm

Red Bird wrote:Thank you very much for the book page. I’ve been looking for new literature anyway and almighty google says it’s a good one.


You are welcome, the synchronity was a nice one. Bhairava as the hidden, symbolically male core of death's sphere is on the next page followed by some depictions of its female circumference of Kâlî. The latter is a bit more well known in the West, and might be a good starting point to this form of "Satanism".

Red Bird wrote:You should write all your books in English in order to avoid this.


Thank you for your suggestion, I take this into serious consideration. Today I am starting a serie of small circle lectures, and instead of putting them later into Finnish form, it might indeed be a better idea to collect them in English language.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Re: Faxneld: Satanic Feminism

Postby Cerastes » Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:24 pm

Nefastos wrote:Thank you for your suggestion, I take this into serious consideration. Today I am starting a serie of small circle lectures, and instead of putting them later into Finnish form, it might indeed be a better idea to collect them in English language.
I was just joking around. ;)
But this might actually be a good idea. There is a growing number of people who are seriously interested on occult topics beyond the YouTube magicians and the „I-want-a-girlfriend“-spells. It could be the right time for a little international promotion. Of course it is not mainstream literature since it took me a almost month to fully read and understand Fosforos. (The LaVeyan „bible“ was finished in a few days,for example) But there is a lot of potential right now especially about theistic satanism.
-
Sorry for off-topic.
“Granny Weatherwax was not lost. She wasn't the kind of person who ever became lost. It was just that, at the moment, while she knew exactly where SHE was, she didn't know the position of anywhere else.”
(Terry Pratchett, Wyrd Sisters)
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Re: Faxneld: Satanic Feminism

Postby Cancer » Sat Jun 16, 2018 3:12 am

Red Bird wrote:Oh, you are a former member? There is nothing wrong about being politically active if you can handle both –"worldliness", and spirituality. I couldn’t, so I’ve decided to stop trying to change the world. Otherwise it ends up with the worst kind of misanthropy. But maybe you are able to handle this better. Would you describe yourself as a feminist?
Yes; and what's funny is that I identified even more strongly as an occultist before I applied for membership. When I got into the fraternity I had, in an exact counter-movement, already started distancing myself from its language and mood. Dialectics of longing, I guess.

Feminism holds many positive associations for me because many of the women closest to me have gone through horrible gender-related suffering. Witnessing this has left me no choice but to call myself a feminist, even though the word is often used in a superficial and stupid way. I have also found feminist thought useful for questioning norms in general.
Red Bird wrote:Femininity to me has not much to do with what what you call "worldiness". It was very hard - and painful- to find for me but now that I found it, I love it. As you already found out it was much easier for me to channel the masculine archetype. But I always idenfied myself as a heterosexual woman and I still do. There was never a doubt about that. And according to womens rights I never had the feeling of being opressed or disrespected. So I don't really get this gender problem.
I was actually not talking about your channeling a masculine archetype (although this is interesting to know), but making a more general philosophical point about identity: to know that one is something is to also be slightly separated from it, because knowing requires an outside perspective. That we know that we are human, for instance, means that we are not wholly human: there is something in us that can as if step outside of our humanity (or of any other definition), and conclude: that is a human. This is, again, the aspect of negativity and freedom. We never conform wholly to how we are defined (even self-defined!): such sentences as ”she is an X”, ”I am a Y” are always only partly true. Feminist philosophy needs this concept of freedom because it explores the individual subject’s relation to ”matter” in a broad sense, to everything that is not decided by it: the body, society, norms, etc.
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Re: Faxneld: Satanic Feminism

Postby Smaragd » Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:11 am

Cancer wrote:to know that one is something is to also be slightly separated from it, because knowing requires an outside perspective. That we know that we are human, for instance, means that we are not wholly human: there is something in us that can as if step outside of our humanity (or of any other definition), and conclude: that is a human. This is, again, the aspect of negativity and freedom.
And the positive system regarding this phenomena might be founding the initiations. When one starts to identify as an occultist or starts thinking their humanity, this satanic pointing of the separating elements starts. In this sort of meditation one could roughly scetch out a map of mysteries they have to go through to integrate the negations. Rather than to just shrug infront of the separate sides of us, note that here lies potentiality to see the heart that bumps blood in to every aspect. This thought underlines identitys position as a tool, much like the chalice and the wine that is poured in.

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