BEING A TRANSEXUAL AND COSMETIC SURGERY?

[Nefastos]

I think does: it says in a simplified form that things need to be evaluated on a case-to-case basis.

That would be wise indeed. But that is not what you said, and neither is it the stance you have taken in this discussion. Quite the contrary, you have taken very delicate issues, and heaped them together with some other things which touch the topic barely if at all.

So on the other hand you are saying that a suicide is a decision of a downward path (Seven Faces of Satan), and on the other you are applauding if we reach the point in liberty where there are suicide clinics.

You missed my point completely. What you here say I suggest I actually said I do not and should not suggest, even though those would be my personal feelings. In this discussion I have given different examples how things will go in case we simply take our first subjective feelings and project them as objective suggestions. I could have chosen someone else's negative intuitions, but I consider that to be impolite. Because of this, I chose to show my own shortcomings instead, and how I must struggle with them. Then I hope my readers will consider the similar functioning of their own intuitions, and question them in a similar way.

My point, underlined here for the one last time, is that one should never take one's personal intuitions about healthy humanity and consider them normal in an objective way (taking the best possible examples to side with these ideas), whereas other people's similar subjective intuitions are seen as abnormal (taking the worst possible examples to side with those ideas).

[Gangleri]

It's pointless if you answer to my or someone else's argument that of course you have considered it and you accept those views and then move on to continue with the same as before without making any visible attempts at showing how you have considered other ideas and what you think about them.

I have not necessarily had the time to answer to different view-points, but it doesn't mean I haven't considered and thought about them. Sure, I have continued with the critical stance.

Playing the devil's advocate is also somewhat unnecessary if you only bring up opinions you agree with.

I have thought that the role of the Devil's Advocate is traditionally one of fundamental opposition that brings the other point of view.

Disagreeing with your writings is not about judging you but being critical of some of the things you say.

Gladly I have nowadays gotten quite well rid of the paranoid delusion that if someone disagrees with me, he or she must be after me somehow. As the internal judge is quite strong in me nowadays, I think if there's someone who judges it is me. Perhaps I should get to know my more gentle feminine side better.

If you want to discuss the medical ethics behind the issue, you have to define those ethics in some way. Others have no intuitive knowledge of what the said ethics include.

Thus far I have only brought forward some ethical questions related to the topic at hand without making a thesis of medical ethics. If I now bring more of those questions to the topic, there are certain things that are often found from those suffering from dysphoria: childhood trauma (abandonment in early age, for example), sexual trauma (molestation/incest), lack of identity, lack of both parents (child affiliating with either the mother or the father / opposite sex), eating disorder, autism, personality disorder and also being born into a family or culture that prefers the other sex (men, usually). Thus I take it to be very irresponsible to offer to minors therapies to find their "true sex" if any of these conditions are present, and I think they should be offered first therapy that deals with these issues that can be seen as root causes. Bringing the esoteric view to the question, who can say for sure they are actually not victims of demonic activity?

You say that human liberty logically leads to suicide clinics (and probably some other ends as well?).

That is not what I argued. I said that if we take human liberty to do to our bodies whatever we want as an absolute, the logical conclusion is suicide clinics. My Conan example was directed at the same issue to show how medical ethics conflict with fulfillment of desires.

You don't just book a meeting with the doctor to see if maybe you should have some operation and the doctor immediately takes you to the surgery.

DId you read the activist statement I linked? It seems that this really is the procedure at least in some parts of the world.

When you wish to present arguments based on science, you can not say that the information you provide is free of ideology and the information others brought up was ideologically biased.

It is always good to go to the source, and if lucky, there one will usually find the credibility of the source. It is true that in such an emotionally and ideologically driven issue such as this, ideology of some kind often trumps objective science.

[Gangleri]

Quite the contrary, you have taken very delicate issues, and heaped them together with some other things which touch the topic barely if at all.

I cannot find any post where I would have heaped together things that don't touch the topic. That much is true that I have considered things from a wider view-point also.

You missed my point completely. What you here say I suggest I actually said I do not and should not suggest, even though those would be my personal feelings.

I must have misunderstood you very badly; for you said the idea is not horrible to you at all, which I took as condoning to such a practice. Perhaps I should sit back and take a few breaths before I answer something in a hurry.

[Nefastos]

I cannot find any post where I would have heaped together things that don't touch the topic. That much is true that I have considered things from a wider view-point also.

Surely you understand that talking about becoming Hulk or building suicide chambers is different to the topic at hand, and sounds incredibly insulting for the people who wrestle with these delicate issues in their personal lives.

It would be very interesting to talk about these things considering many different angles and not become a prisoner of any single immovable ready-made mindset (as is customary in today's discussions), but that would require careful respect whenever we come close to such extremely sensitive topics as this one.

[Gangleri]

I cannot find any post where I would have heaped together things that don't touch the topic. That much is true that I have considered things from a wider view-point also.

Surely you understand that talking about becoming Hulk or building suicide chambers is different to the topic at hand, and sounds incredibly insulting for the people who wrestle with these delicate issues in their personal lives.

As I see it, the discussion strayed into (medical) ethics and human liberty in general (isn't it very usual that off-topic issues also come into play in these forum discussions?), and they were examples of these issues. If I've come out as offensive or insulting because of these examples, I apologize wholeheartedly.

[Nefastos]

If I've come out as offensive or insulting because of these examples, I apologize wholeheartedly.

Thank you for this. And thank you for our other writers too, who have dealt with these subtle topics in a careful and polite way.

[Gangleri]

If I've come out as offensive or insulting because of these examples, I apologize wholeheartedly.

Thank you for this.

As I still consider myself somewhat a gentleman, I have no problems to say I'm sorry if I've stepped on someone's toes.

I'll take a very brief look into transsexual issues in the Norse Tradition. Ódhinn was considered by the profane men sometimes as unmanly and effeminate, since he was considered being "beyond the sexes" in some of his behavior and outlook. It is not uncommon for shamans of many cultures to breach and transgress sexual roles, all the way down to their dressing. It made me think that perhaps the current rise in sexual dysphoria and transgression of Right Hand Path norms is in some cases - where there are not necessarily other medical issues behind - an emergence of repressed "pagan" influence - by Christian theology, mainly - from the past. There is also the example of Thor dressing up as Freya in the Norse myths, which I take to be a myth describing an initiation. Sure, exoterically, Thor didn't like Loki dressing himself up as Freya and go deceive and finally smite the Titans, but esoterically I see in it a certain change of polarization and thus an initiatic ceremony from the most masculine god of the Norse Pantheon.

[Gangleri]

And what exactly are these guys doing? Wearing women's bras and dancing like little girls, while the women tie them up and the Goddess is elevated?

[Tariq]

I've sometimes wondered does my transgenderness mean that I am somehow between worlds and that it should be somehow my task to be some kind of witch or seer or something. But whenever I think this thought I always feel that it's selfish and something entirely out of my league.

[Gangleri]

I think these videos are worth watching for anyone interested in the gender, identity and sexual norms in the Scandinavian Heathen past.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbls2qpvPpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBbExHXxcL4