Spirit Spouses and their persecution

Astral and paranormal experiences, dreams and visions.
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Noname
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Spirit Spouses and their persecution

Postby Noname » Mon Apr 10, 2017 1:08 pm

Spirit spouses are a wide spread phenomenon in shamanism. Typically they are the primary helping spirit of the shaman, who are not only their assistants, but guides as well. These relationships vary from romantic, sexual to a purely symbolic, and they are engaged through trance, dreams and other ritualistic elements. Now if you google 'spirit spouse' you will find a widespread persecution of them, primarily created by orthodox believers of Christianity or its churches followers, that these beings are malevolent, often mistaken as incubi or succubi. This is nothing but fallacy and fear of the unknown, and needs to change.

I am relatively biased on this subject, and the primary motivation for this thread is to clear these misconceptions. I see my spirit spouse as my divine feminine, and I am one with her. She offers guidance, nurturing, unconditional love, and to top that off I could state that she saved me from a downward leading path. I had become angry, a real troublemaker, because I felt isolated in this world and that I was rejected by it. She showed me otherwise, and now I feel like I'm on the correct path. The reason for this thread comes from my initial negative thoughts regarding her (my shadow was extremely aggressive towards her), because of all these fear instilling doctrines that had been taught to me, which to me speaks of how culturally rejecting we are, as a society of the divine feminine. The Goddesses are hardly mentioned, honoring of those archetypes seized, the world has become unhealthily masculine, ruled by insecurity and fear. If you ask me, this is one of the fundamental steps we need to take as a humanity, to balance the masculine and feminine in each and every one of us, and be accepting of those feminine qualities in everyone, instead of attempting to promote (unhealthy) masculinity in everyone.

It's interesting to add how being with her creates synchronicity.
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Heith
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Re: Spirit Spouses and their persecution

Postby Heith » Mon Apr 10, 2017 3:40 pm

Answering as a practising Shamanist.

My spirit guide, or at least the one that I currently work with, has no gender, or at least it has never been something which came to my knowledge. This can be because it wouldn't be something which I find to be important or particularly interesting for my work. This can stem from that I do not think my own gender important either. My body is that of a female, but often I don't consider myself as a woman. I don't think about this kind of things very much, if I am a man or woman or what; I am a being incased in lumps of flesh arranged in a certain fashion. Our bodies last only for such a little while.

I completely understand this anima-animus way of thinking and believe that it is important that a magician/shamanist/etc seeks to connect with both masculine and feminine archetypes. A Shamanist is someone I think who should be both, and neither. To become too fixed to one gender or archetype may cause an imbalance. To be both causes unity. I trust that readers understand that I do not refer to sexual preferences or way of dressing and not even how one would express these things via their body; these go on the field of human stuff, and this interests me not. I do however understand that to some this may be a very useful practise, and that is of course fine.

I will add that my guide is not "angelic" in nature, meaning that information doesn't flow from "above", so to say. My guide teaches me to be observant, to read people, places and situations, and helps me in my journeys -on the rare occasion that I do trance work. Actually now that I think of it, our exchange is sometimes quite comical, taken into account my helper's nature. This is a good reminder that all things are at the same time very serious and very funny* (but I will add here that this means not chaos for the sake of chaos & to harm others for the sake of gaining something yourself, or to be a destructive jester, like Crowley type of character).


*As Fra Otava cleverly formulated the thought
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Nefastos
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Re: Spirit Spouses and their persecution

Postby Nefastos » Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:59 am

Very interesting topics, thank you Noname.
Noname wrote:...which to me speaks of how culturally rejecting we are, as a society of the divine feminine. The Goddesses are hardly mentioned, honoring of those archetypes seized, the world has become unhealthily masculine, ruled by insecurity and fear. If you ask me, this is one of the fundamental steps we need to take as a humanity, to balance the masculine and feminine in each and every one of us, and be accepting of those feminine qualities in everyone, instead of attempting to promote (unhealthy) masculinity in everyone.


I heartily agree. As I always say, how the feminism is nowadays usually understood is the greatest victory of the unhealthiest type of chauvinist masculinity.

Instead these two archetypical types, masculine & feminine, are:

1) Polar opposites
2) Equally important
3) Equal also in power & factual dominance, even though they present it in very different ways
4) As archetypes very little culture-bound, even though cultural representations of them naturally vary a great deal
5) Both present in every being, but one of them almost always much more apparent (leading to anima/animus-psychology)
6) Actually not bound to one's physical body or the so called sexual orientation in any simple correspondence (but via a multitude of factors)

I also think it is important to remember that:

7) The different gender archetypes have the same virtues and vices, but how they are handled and reached, differs
8) The harder it is for a gender archetype to embody a certain vice, the more terrible that vice is when actualized
9) In crises like occult initiation or other subliminal activity the powers archetypes change polarity i.e. their gender
10) Stressing a neuter or free choice attitude towards gender is no less a suggestion than it is to speak about male & female

Heith wrote:I completely understand this anima-animus way of thinking and believe that it is important that a magician/shamanist/etc seeks to connect with both masculine and feminine archetypes. A Shamanist is someone I think who should be both, and neither. To become too fixed to one gender or archetype may cause an imbalance. To be both causes unity. I trust that readers understand that I do not refer to sexual preferences or way of dressing and not even how one would express these things via their body; these go on the field of human stuff, and this interests me not. I do however understand that to some this may be a very useful practise, and that is of course fine.


Verily so.

Heith wrote:I don't think about this kind of things very much, if I am a man or woman or what; I am a being incased in lumps of flesh arranged in a certain fashion. Our bodies last only for such a little while.


In this I belong to a school (temperament) opposite to Heith's. I do not think along the line that soul does not have gender, but that soul changes its sex at more less regular intervals. Even though those absolutes are time-bound, they are important at times when they present themselves. But, like everything in this world, these things need careful individual interpretation. Different people have very different karma & dharma, also about individual approach to their gender & sexuality. Yet, the differences in our glandular and nervous system (not only upbringing or cultural background) affects us in subtle ways.

About the question about spirit spouses, I would suggest careful & loving approach, like in all dealings with the spirit world. Beings that are not human have very different set of powers and morals and ways of affecting us. Divine beings are dangerous because to them our time-bound suffering is, so to say, inconsequential, and lesser spirits are dangerous because they are basically forces of nature even when they have personalities, and so they are unable to choose in a way a human being is. For example, if we rouse interest of a spirit, such a spirit will not in its own accord give up such an interest as a human lover is able to do. Neither can a spirit spouse actually develop or be helped in human way, being a very different kind of entity. So outwardly, such a union can be easier, but deeper inside it easily remains much less fertile, even stunting, unless a vastly different attitude to relationship as a whole is built. (I do not address this to you Noname, but to a chance reader for to whom these might be wholly new ideas.)

Noname wrote:often mistaken as incubi or succubi


I think that incubi & succubi of the demonologists are actually remnants of living or deceased human beings. Wholly non-human spirits that can interact with our sexual energies are not malevolent, even though we can easily create great suffering for ourselves if we use our own psychoenergetical constitution in a way that our sexual energy gets entangled with powers that are unable to either ground or elevate it. As said above, spirits that are not human beings do not have a human conscience or a human mindset to deal with differences. But there are always exceptions, of course, because the field is so vast. Spirit manifestations, like human psyches, are aggregates containing in themselves several principles of different use and origin.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Re: Spirit Spouses and their persecution

Postby obnoxion » Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:16 am

I would say that spirit spouse and spirit guide are somewhat different concepts, and though spirit spouse is a common concept in shamanism in most shamanic cultures of the world, it is less prominent so in Finland. On the other hand, transcendence of gender is an element of Nordic shamanism. Please, correct me if I'm wrong.

I've also learnt a handful of shamanistic methods and for me those have been some of the most effective methods. I do not have a spirit spouse in the demanding sense of the word. But what little of I've experienced of it, I think that the legendary figure of the White Lady thay I encountered (so to speak) in my teens could have had become one, if I were inclined to that sort of relationship. Later I have read that such encounters are typical anima experiences for teenage boys. Anyway, the White Lady for me was more like a herald of danger than erotically intimate partner.

How I understand this in a larger context, is how the guru-figure in R Svoboda's "Aghori trilogy" put it. One's relationship to Shakti can be one of three varities 1) Of a mother and a child 2) of a spouse and a wife 3) of a master and a slave. My way is the first way, that of a child to a mother.
One day of Brahma has 14 Indras; his life has 54 000 Indras. One day of Vishnu is the lifetime of Brahma. The lifetime of Vishnu is one day of Shiva.
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Re: Spirit Spouses and their persecution

Postby Heith » Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:03 pm

obnoxion wrote:But what little of I've experienced of it, I think that the legendary figure of the White Lady thay I encountered (so to speak) in my teens could have had become one, if I were inclined to that sort of relationship.
Interesting, as I encountered a Black Lady in my teens. As a hindshight, she most likely would have been spirit spouse material, had that kind of thing interested me.
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Re: Spirit Spouses and their persecution

Postby Noname » Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:17 pm

Nefastos wrote:Very interesting topics, thank you Noname.

not human have very different set of powers and morals and ways of affecting us. Divine beings are dangerous because to them our time-bound suffering is, so to say, inconsequential, and lesser spirits are dangerous because they are basically forces of nature even when they have personalities, and so they are unable to choose in a way a human being is. For example, if we rouse interest of a spirit, such a spirit will not in its own accord give up such an interest as a human lover is able to do. Neither can a spirit spouse actually develop or be helped in human way, being a very different kind of entity. So outwardly, such a union can be easier, but deeper inside it easily remains much less fertile, even stunting, unless a vastly different attitude to relationship as a whole is built. (I do not address this to you Noname, but to a chance reader for to whom these might be wholly new ideas.)

Even so, you manage to import wisdom for me as well, once again I am grateful. Especially since I am a complete, utter fool, and usually quite blind to any warning signs, somehow everything still turns out fine.

And I am in complete agreement with the union of female and male in a human. However even as I view myself both, and neither (a 'magic' hermaphrodite), I choose to at least portray a male aspect of myself. And she, chooses to portray herself as female, this is sort of an agreed decision. How this all will develop is to be remain to be seen, but 'she' is well aware of my stubbornness, that I will not let anything stand in the way of my 'development' to fully realizing myself. Who knows, I may have just (once again) stepped into some sort of a trap, but that's half the fun.

Note: I do realize my 'way' is highly inconsiderate and more than likely destructive (to myself only, thankfully), but I feel its important I stay true to my nature, and true self.
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Re: Spirit Spouses and their persecution

Postby Heith » Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:59 pm

Noname wrote: Note: I do realize my 'way' is highly inconsiderate and more than likely destructive (to myself only, thankfully), but I feel its important I stay true to my nature, and true self.
Hmm. Would you like to elaborate on this a little bit? The way I understand the concept of a Spiritual spouse -though I have not one myself- doesn't seem to be something which would promote destructiveness.
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Re: Spirit Spouses and their persecution

Postby Noname » Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:25 pm

Heith wrote:
Noname wrote: Note: I do realize my 'way' is highly inconsiderate and more than likely destructive (to myself only, thankfully), but I feel its important I stay true to my nature, and true self.
Hmm. Would you like to elaborate on this a little bit? The way I understand the concept of a Spiritual spouse -though I have not one myself- doesn't seem to be something which would promote destructiveness.
Overall carelessness and recklessness, as per to Nefastos warning, I know I should take a careful approach instead of these carefree, foolishly naive attitude towards this subject. And you're right, the spirit is the furthest being from destructive, half the reason despite all the fears I have faced, and the shadow work I have to do to myself, and the moments where I feel overcome by fear, that it would be easier to give up this relationship than to attempt to pursue it further, I have decided I am going to see what's at the end of this road, because of her I have grown so much, and the bond we share is beyond what I have personally experienced in a human relationship. Even that sentence quoted shows my own, deeply rooted insecurities towards the subject, but all that cultural conditioning that I face (and have weeded out) of myself, there still remains parts of myself where I need to improve (for example sometimes a singular thought causes a rollercoaster of fearful thoughts, and even as she tries her best to calm me down I sort of run away from her presence, or I become completely under lock down). But so far it has been nothing but a nurturing relationship.
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Re: Spirit Spouses and their persecution

Postby Polyhymnia » Fri Feb 22, 2019 8:14 am

Nefastos wrote:
Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:59 am

About the question about spirit spouses, I would suggest careful & loving approach, like in all dealings with the spirit world. Beings that are not human have very different set of powers and morals and ways of affecting us. Divine beings are dangerous because to them our time-bound suffering is, so to say, inconsequential, and lesser spirits are dangerous because they are basically forces of nature even when they have personalities, and so they are unable to choose in a way a human being is. For example, if we rouse interest of a spirit, such a spirit will not in its own accord give up such an interest as a human lover is able to do. Neither can a spirit spouse actually develop or be helped in human way, being a very different kind of entity. So outwardly, such a union can be easier, but deeper inside it easily remains much less fertile, even stunting, unless a vastly different attitude to relationship as a whole is built. (I do not address this to you Noname, but to a chance reader for to whom these might be wholly new ideas.)

I'm very much one of the chance readers and these are entirely new ideas to me. Incredibly eye opening. I really appreciate you taking the time to write this out. It allows me to read this thread with a deeper understanding, since I'm not very familiar with the Shamanistic path.
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Re: Spirit Spouses and their persecution

Postby obnoxion » Sun Mar 17, 2019 4:49 am

Marie-Louis von Franz shares an Alchemical story about Isis, which relates to our topic: When her son had gone to fight Typhon, Isis went to the Town of Hermes. Isis waited for the right moment – the kairoi – when the heavenly spheres were in right position. When the moment came, an angelic being from the first firmament saw Isis and wanted to unite with her sexually. Isis said she will not comply unless the angel tell her everything he knows about Alchemy. The next time the angle came with his superior called Amnael, who taught Isis all he knew, but Isis was not allowed to reveal this knowledge to anyone except her son.

The story does not tell if the promise of sex happened. Marie-Louis von Franz compares this myth to the Jewish legend of daughters of men getting the secrets of metallurgy from Azazel. Although the “original” (I wouldn’t say there is an original text that is copied and copied, but instead would consider an Archetypal source for the mythic pattern in question) Heathen versions tend to celebrate the knowledge without any guilt. Here I will quote a most enlightening paragraph from M-L von F’s “Alchemy – An Introduction to the Symbolism and Psychology” (Inner City Books, 1980; page 57). She basically suggests that a sexual impulse that might take the form of an enamored spiritual being, might be the first form of a chance to progress of consciousness that could be lost if we abandons ourselves to it immediately:

“…the angel would represent a content of the collective unconscious, in our terms, which irrupts into the psychological system with a demand, in this case a sexual one… Alchemy was born through Isis’ resistance and the fact that she did not cede quickly [or] at least delayed the sexual process, if it did not stop it altogether… If she were a human woman, the angel’s attack would be an animus invasion, but I would rather formulate it much more generally because that would apply to a single case, and this is not case material. It means that very often contents of the collective unconscious irrupt in an instinctive form, in the form of some kind of instinctive urge, either power or sex, or something of the kind. That is, the libido irruption of the unconscious presents itself on a relatively animal or low level first, and that is something we experience again and again. The development of further consciousness often manifests initially in this form. One of the great problems in the psychological realm was to recognize this. If such an irruption takes place you can say that that is being flooded by the sexual impulse, or fantasies, or even physical sexual impulse. We have always to decide whether that is genuine sex or disguised unconscious impulse, which really implies knowledge or progress of consciousness, which appears first in this form.”
One day of Brahma has 14 Indras; his life has 54 000 Indras. One day of Vishnu is the lifetime of Brahma. The lifetime of Vishnu is one day of Shiva.

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