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Re: Focus on one Path = Unity

Posted: Fri May 10, 2019 4:53 pm
by Cerastes
Heith wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 3:45 pm
The reader will bear in mind as they read my text that I detest ONA and other groups of similar nature that idolize violence, torture and/or criminal acts. To me this is nothing but a continuation of the blackmetal & motorcycle mindset; absurdly childish, weak and contrary to what they are quick to say, extremely herd mentality. I've rarely encountered as frail egos as in that kind of circles. There is a lot of unnecessary mystifying in groups like that. It bores me. I do think that there is a level of this deliberate mystifying in these rituals you mentioned, the purpose is to attract people with it because it sounds "cool".
This is very accurate. Especially this Hitler-worshipping or worship of evil in general while claiming to be an individualist and hating on religions is such a hyprocrisy. Whoever automatically worships what society fears most is driven by society. They would worship a pink teddybear if society was frightned about pink teddybears. At least this would look much more fluffy than the swastika.
Polyhymnia wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 10:54 pm
I don't think the plan needs to be so much concrete as at least somewhat formed. I found writing my goals out to be very helpful. For me I started out with a spiritual hunger that needed to be satiated, and when I really assessed what I was after, it was learning how to live a more compassionate and kind life, and fostering that type of environment around me while growing spiritually and finding purpose. It continues to evolve the further along my path I go, and I think that alot of people probably share that same experience as they continuously change and hopefully grow.
I usually start an occut practice when I’m certain about the purpose. That’s important because a chaotic mind like mine would easily go the wrong direction. Of course at the beginning, I tried different things too but at some point one should think about the purpose of the work and the inner process as Sor Heith mentioned. Most people get there when the work becomes more serious, I guess.

Re: Focus on one Path = Unity

Posted: Fri May 10, 2019 6:43 pm
by Cephalius
Polyhymnia wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 10:54 pm
Indeed warning of death sounds pretty grim. Do they make it clear if they mean physical or spiritual death? Because not all death is bad, and I mean that as in the death of things that no longer serve us on a mental and spiritual plane, but physical death due to a chant gone wrong seems a little intense. I think Cerastes is on the right trail with how that death may come to fruition.
I think they mean something like a self-inflicted accident that can lead to own physical death or lover's death due to wrong circulation of acausal energy. They themselves do not say that death is a bad thing. They explicitly say, "Love nothing so much that you can not see it die because death is a natural change of energies."
Heith wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 3:45 pm
I think that with occult work it is not very wise to go about without at least some kind of a plan. I also think that our contemporary time, which is very surface-focused, puts too much value on the visible or outer layers. This is true in the occult world also. Too much value is put on rituals and how things look like, and too little on person's inner growth which in my opinion is largely a journey of ethical and philosophical pondering. But I get why it doesn't interest most people, it can be very unexciting work. I do think that some things we are able to make our mind on without having to try it. For example I certainly can understand that I don't have to kill someone in order to understand that it would be wrong to kill someone.

The reader will bear in mind as they read my text that I detest ONA and other groups of similar nature that idolize violence, torture and/or criminal acts. To me this is nothing but a continuation of the blackmetal & motorcycle mindset; absurdly childish, weak and contrary to what they are quick to say, extremely herd mentality. I've rarely encountered as frail egos as in that kind of circles. There is a lot of unnecessary mystifying in groups like that. It bores me. I do think that there is a level of this deliberate mystifying in these rituals you mentioned, the purpose is to attract people with it because it sounds "cool".
My motivation for my path may sound childish, but it's because it's very hard to describe. Of course my motive is not based on primitive aesthetics. And I clearly deny the Nazi and violence-glorifying aspects, because they lead to the ultimate self-destruction, without being progressive in any way.

The members say that all of the "satanism stuff" is just a gate, just a first step to higher levels. And Anton Long clearly states that Nazism was only a means to an end (not for me, as stated above) and that they now plan to work on a different level. The main focus is clearly on the star game (for me a prototype of mathematical and multi-dimensional magick) and on the chants calling the acausal to bring back the "dark gods". Satan was just one of the gods who was here and revealed himself in many faces (as demons and rebellious mythological figures like Loki). They call themselves Satanists because he was the most famous "dark god" who stayed here. In the o9a, I see a search for the new, for the possibility of calling all the dark gods to transcend the body, psyche, and the spirit, the quest to understand the incomprehensible, and the courage to give everything up for evolution.

The order is (of course mostly rightly) criticized. But it is not bad to learn about the philosophy and to pick out and develop positive aspects. "Every blind chicken also finds a grain", as we say in Germany. Every philosophy has something true and one should then respect that truth and respect its origin.
Cerastes wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 4:53 pm
This is very accurate. Especially this Hitler-worshipping or worship of evil in general while claiming to be an individualist and hating on religions is such a hyprocrisy. Whoever automatically worships what society fears most is driven by society. They would worship a pink teddybear if society was frightned about pink teddybears. At least this would look much more fluffy than the swastika.
Yes you are right. But also not. Nazism was only a means to an end and a test of whether you are ready to give up the primitive conception of good and evil. I think they chose Nazism because their actions are hard to forgive, and most "moral" people hesitate, or even go away, when they are unwilling to accept evil and are unwilling to abandon primitive concepts.
And it also has something to do with challenge. Most people stop at this point because they despise appropriate ideologies, but as they take further steps, they free themselves from their sophisticated moral notions. And for those who are right-wing extremists, the surprise of the inside roles awaits them. You may then have to be active in a leftist party or even propagate communist thoughts.

Again, I'm against violent inside roles and against Nazism, but that's not the point. I just want to make it clear that you just do not have to stay on the surface and also have to look for truths in unpleasant worldviews. To describe something as "Hittler-worship" without informing yourself is (I am sorry to say so) just narrow-minded. At least that's something I've learned through my satanic path.
Cerastes wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 4:53 pm
I usually start an occut practice when I’m certain about the purpose. That’s important because a chaotic mind like mine would easily go the wrong direction. Of course at the beginning, I tried different things too but at some point one should think about the purpose of the work and the inner process as Sor Heith mentioned. Most people get there when the work becomes more serious, I guess.
That's it. I have not found the true path yet. That's why I ask, in how far experimenting is wise, without taking drastic consequences into account.

Re: Focus on one Path = Unity

Posted: Fri May 10, 2019 7:33 pm
by Cerastes
Cephalius wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 6:43 pm
Yes you are right. But also not. Nazism was only a means to an end and a test of whether you are ready to give up the primitive conception of good and evil. I think they chose Nazism because their actions are hard to forgive, and most "moral" people hesitate, or even go away, when they are unwilling to accept evil and are unwilling to abandon primitive concepts.
And it also has something to do with challenge. Most people stop at this point because they despise appropriate ideologies, but as they take further steps, they free themselves from their sophisticated moral notions. And for those who are right-wing extremists, the surprise of the inside roles awaits them. You may then have to be active in a leftist party or even propagate communist thoughts.

Again, I'm against violent inside roles and against Nazism, but that's not the point. I just want to make it clear that you just do not have to stay on the surface and also have to look for truths in unpleasant worldviews. To describe something as "Hittler-worship" without informing yourself is (I am sorry to say so) just narrow-minded. At least that's something I've learned through my satanic path.
Thank you for the explanation.
No need to be sorry, honest opinions do not offend me at all.
We might have a misunderstanding here and my comment, that was admittedly a little cynical, was not directed soley to the O9A so let me clearify this.

Depolarization from inculcated concepts is important to get a clear and unfilterd view on the world. But it is mainly a inner process I don't see an need for shock treatments like this. Quite often those people abhore christianty (for example) as much as other abhore Hitler but they sure as hell won't do a Jesus worshipping ritual. After the concept of good and evil is reversed but still narrowed.

Of course you are right, I don't know too much about the O9A so if I'm wrong here, please correct me.
Cephalius wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 6:43 pm
The order is (of course mostly rightly) criticized. But it is not bad to learn about the philosophy and to pick out and develop positive aspects. "Every blind chicken also finds a grain", as we say in Germany.
Ja, ein blindes Huhn findet auch ein Korn aber wenn es lernt die Augen zu öffnen, findet es vielleicht noch viel mehr. ;)
I'm sure you will find your path and maybe this forum can help you to get some inspiration. It helped me a lot.

Re: Focus on one Path = Unity

Posted: Fri May 10, 2019 7:58 pm
by Polyhymnia
Cephalius wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 6:43 pm

The order is (of course mostly rightly) criticized. But it is not bad to learn about the philosophy and to pick out and develop positive aspects. "Every blind chicken also finds a grain", as we say in Germany. Every philosophy has something true and one should then respect that truth and respect its origin.
I do agree with picking and developing aspects that serve our purpose, often times despite the source. I don't think I'll come across as eloquently as I'd like, but I'll try. I've been thinking a lot lately about how much the source of something should affect what I take away. For example, you say you despise the extremist Nazi views, but find value in the star game (forgive me if I called that an incorrect term, I'm going off memory). Do the nazi and violent views affect that value to you? This is especially interesting to me because I've been thinking about how much I like the band Dissection, musically, and often thematically, but the fact that the lead singer was involved in the murder of a gay man in what they say was a murder acted out in homophobia, really affects how I enjoy the music. To an extent I think using the Death of the Author (Roland Barthes) principle is helpful to take away what one needs, but it's not always easy to execute in this day and age when information is available at the speed of light. I read a bit into the O9A and had a really hard time getting past the extremism, but that's not to say if I wasn't aware of some of those elements I couldn't or wouldn't find value in some of the teachings.

Cerastes wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 4:53 pm
I usually start an occut practice when I’m certain about the purpose. That’s important because a chaotic mind like mine would easily go the wrong direction. Of course at the beginning, I tried different things too but at some point one should think about the purpose of the work and the inner process as Sor Heith mentioned. Most people get there when the work becomes more serious, I guess.
I feel that especially at this point in my path. My main purpose has remained the same since starting my path, and though the SoA is challenging me in many many ways, I feel my path isn't so much changing as it is growing and rounding out. I suppose my original point was just to be open to the evolution of the spirit, but I think defining that purpose is when you start seeing exponential growth.

Re: Focus on one Path = Unity

Posted: Sat May 11, 2019 12:00 pm
by Nefastos
Hi Cephalius, thank you for the question & conversation!
Cephalius wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 7:33 pm
What interests me is the concept of unity and the ways to experience that unity. In my experience, there are two ways to experience unity, of which only one way worked best for me so far.
1. Merging different and seemingly opposing philosophies into a single one.
2. Pure focus on a single path. This focus spreads in a mystical way, creating a perfect unity.
Like sister Cerastes already mentioned, it once again seems true that uniting these paths of joining and not-joining would be the optimal answer, even though paradoxical.

Your possibility number 1, focus on total syncretism, may easily bring with it surficiality and lack of depth and concentration. One simply takes the easiest things that seem for him to be the most intuitive in different systems, and such an easy answer imprisons one to the periphery of his own soul's palace as unavoidably as the possibility number 2 taken to fanatical extreme. Only the peripherical point is different.

I think that the best way might be to try out number 2 with the system one feels called to, but with two conditions: First, one must never stop searching for the most profound answers, i.e. Truth; and secondly, cultivating compassion and respect towards his fellow men who hold dear different tenets and who work in love with those different tenets. Using such a method these two conditions form the Windows and Doors for the soul to see & expand & not to suffocate, stiffen and become mummified. (In my youth I was well on my way for these even while my original way was open and cosmopolitan theosophical attitude: mummification can happen in every system when free breathing stops, however lofty the ideal.)

Re: Focus on one Path = Unity

Posted: Mon May 13, 2019 7:00 pm
by Cephalius
Nefastos wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 12:00 pm
Your possibility number 1, focus on total syncretism, may easily bring with it surficiality and lack of depth and concentration. One simply takes the easiest things that seem for him to be the most intuitive in different systems, and such an easy answer imprisons one to the periphery of his own soul's palace as unavoidably as the possibility number 2 taken to fanatical extreme. Only the peripherical point is different.
Thanks for the answer.
I think here lies the difficulty: the balance between unity and uniqueness. You have to have a stable foundation, for example the core philosophy of Fosforos, otherwise the two negative extremes that you described can happen. I have set out to "deconstruct" myself each day through intense meditation just to purge myself of fanatical ideas and to remind myself of my true path. Generally, I use the Cartesian doubt to rid myself of stupidity and to put my philosophy on a new footing. For the reconstruction I use the four basic questions of Kant and additionally the fifth question: What is truth? This is enough, I believe, to make every path a synthesis for progress.
Nefastos wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 12:00 pm
I think that the best way might be to try out number 2 with the system one feels called to, but with two conditions: First, one must never stop searching for the most profound answers, i.e. Truth; and secondly, cultivating compassion and respect towards his fellow men who hold dear different tenets and who work in love with those different tenets. Using such a method these two conditions form the Windows and Doors for the soul to see & expand & not to suffocate, stiffen and become mummified. (In my youth I was well on my way for these even while my original way was open and cosmopolitan theosophical attitude: mummification can happen in every system when free breathing stops, however lofty the ideal.)
As described above, I apply the Cartesian doubt and Kant's basic questions. For metaphysical theories, I review ideas such as neo-Platonism, stoicism, pantheism, and general esoteric ideas that are well known. I like Spinoza's idea of pantheism and I like his mathematical approach. Likewise, I take Satre's idea of constantly designing the self into the future. Most are unconscious of its process, but I take Satan or Azazel as a picture of the perfection of man. These "philosophical games" prevent me from a regressive retreat from the truth.
I have set out to consolidate my philosophical basis so as not to stray from the true path when I dive into the rituals of the o9a. Likewise, I gladly accept your advice and keep tolerance and love in my mind and in my heart.

Then I have a short question: In how far does it make sense to combine and adapt different rituals? I mean, there are again two extremes: the strict ceremonial approach and the absolutely subjective chaos magical approach.
I do not like strictness and absoluteness, at the same time I can not exactly judge the severity of the consequences. Has anyone had experience with customizations of rituals and/or chants/hymns?

Re: Focus on one Path = Unity

Posted: Mon May 13, 2019 9:25 pm
by Cerastes
Polyhymnia wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 7:58 pm
I feel that especially at this point in my path. My main purpose has remained the same since starting my path, and though the SoA is challenging me in many many ways, I feel my path isn't so much changing as it is growing and rounding out. I suppose my original point was just to be open to the evolution of the spirit, but I think defining that purpose is when you start seeing exponential growth.

My original point was to proof to myself that esotericism is crap and I can go on with being a happy little nihilist.
Obviously that didn't work out as planned, as there was always to much curiosity to just close the case. Consequentially I made a new plan that involves spiritual ascension. It was a step-by-step path.
SoA changed quite a few things, it was a step towards the right hand path to me because I needed to overcome my pride-driven maverick attitude. So far the exchange of knowlege here has been very valuable. Maybe you are right and it takes a while until one is really able to see where s/he wants to go. It's making your eyes see through the dark and there is no nostrum or one-size-fits-all.

Re: Focus on one Path = Unity

Posted: Tue May 14, 2019 1:37 pm
by Nefastos
Cephalius wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 7:00 pm
Then I have a short question: In how far does it make sense to combine and adapt different rituals? I mean, there are again two extremes: the strict ceremonial approach and the absolutely subjective chaos magical approach.
I do not like strictness and absoluteness, at the same time I can not exactly judge the severity of the consequences. Has anyone had experience with customizations of rituals and/or chants/hymns?


Good question. Once again, I suggest the amalgam of both: keeping into tradition, and breathing in it. In the olden days it was possible to keep very close to one true system, because cultural "spiritual" regions often overlapped only a little and there were living Traditions with their orally transmitted personal advises. But even then it was not so strict as some of us would like to think: synchretism has always been there. Where do all these seemingly separate traditions originally come? Not from some distant patriarch who gave them exactly as they were later used, even though that is the idealistic credo. All the rituals come from the process of adaptation by several ingenious key figures, and then at last adapted into living life by the aspirant himself, plus (if he is very lucky to have one) his teacher/master and fellow students. As it is said in Tabula Smaragdina:

Et sicut res omnes fuerunt ab uno, meditatione unius, sic omnes res natae fuerunt ab hac una re, adaptatione.


Everything is born from the One through the processes of adaptation.

Every seemingly solid system we see now are formulated by someone, and put to use in different ways in the past. One good example is the grimoire magic. It is always stressed in the old grimoire texts how important it is to put their processes to use to the letter, but at the same time we notice that:

a) They themselves are always put together from different sources and have modified them.
b) They are often self-contradictory and messed up in the oldest sources, only "corrected" (which should have made them nonfunctional?) by the later editors.
c) They are joined to practices and/or theologies of some right hand path practices (Christianity or whatever has been their cultural background) in a way that is hard to accept.
d) They often demand ethically questionable deeds (like animal sacrifice).
e) It is often possible to see that the formulae they use are corrupted versions of something else, but still insist that those are the true forms in which nothing should be changed.

Now, this was just an easy example. But problems like this come up also in other practices. Every student of comparative religion knows nowadays that there are no "pure" religious practices, but the demand of "purity" inside the religions stems from power-struggle. When the instructions are taken to be directionally given by a deity to the founder of the religion, those instructions curiously seem to be very similar to something that the cultural and psychological background of the founder would have given, and have great similarity to the already existing forms of practice. And so on. There is no pristine state, and so there is no escape from this horrible personal demand: everyone must search the spot where he can spiritually live and act by himself. To make compromises where he feels they are needed; and renounce the compromises where his heart tells him they cannot be made.

And it doesn't make it easier than there are so real dangers in magic. Most often the danger is not of death, but of perversion and imperceptible loss of sanity. The more one starts to twist, so much more he himself is twisted, and the more he becomes perverted in his intellect & imaginatio, the less he notices this. Ultimately follows the downward path, and the occult structure becomes inverted. Most likely the magician will for a long time think that he is advancing nicely, and other people are just idiots because they cannot see how power should be grasped.

As you see from Fosforos that you mentioned, it holds the apparatus of magic ("Celestial hymns" in its theurgical center) which has been constucted to be a wholesome working. As such, it can be used without modifications, and as author, I naturally have tried to make it as good as possible (or to say it differently, to act as a scribe for the spiritual masters I try to serve by giving form to their great work that always goes partially over my own head, and I learn myself at the same time when I give these instructions to others, and also later by following those instructions). But even though I would love to say "follow these to the letter to get the best result," I cannot very well say such things since I haven't done that myself, but instead put together different aspects from different sources. And still, because this frail human being that is me is not the only one behind those rituals, I would myself give a go to use them as they are, when it seems possible, rather than changing them. I have seen several examples when people have started to make changes which seem very legit, and ended up in some kind of loss of mind and path. These are hard questions, not easy to answer, and our doctrine of freedom is a cruel one, for everyone must choose their own path.

Re: Focus on one Path = Unity

Posted: Fri May 17, 2019 10:37 pm
by Cephalius
Thanks for the answers!
I know that there are no clear answers, especially none in the field of magic. Despite the dangers, I try to experiment because now I find no other way. All the possibilities are so suddenly revealed to me, perhaps because of the invocations and prayers. Why I'm interested in philosophies that are actually disgusting to me is this strange sense of necessity. Something is waiting for me there, something wants to reveal itself there.

Maybe it's a test and a temptation and maybe I'll fall for it. Maybe I manipulated my own mind and needs in such a way that I find these views attractive. Maybe I did not cleanse my spirit and mind enough and now my ego leads me into the abyss, into destruction. Only trying reveals the answer. But that is the satanic path: being surrounded by darkness and dark temptations. Surrounded by nothingness and emptiness that needs to be filled. But with what should it be filled is only clear, when you have actually tried to fill it. Maybe I will fall into madness. Or I will experience a part of the absolute truth.
But if I find something valuable, then I try to break it down to the basic building blocks, so that everyone can build on it what they want.
I will write a detailed report on the o9a after gaining some experience. I would like to bring to light important concepts that everyone should know and confirm or disprove general criticism of the Order.
Good luck and thank you for some good advice!

Re: Focus on one Path = Unity

Posted: Fri May 17, 2019 11:14 pm
by Cerastes
I'm looking forward to read your report and hope you will find what you are looking for.
All the best ... und pass auf dich auf.