Apocatastasis (& Origen)

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Rúnatýr
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Apocatastasis (& Origen)

Post by Rúnatýr »

What is your stance towards apocatastasis, in more familiar terms, the teaching of universal restoration and the final salvation / liberation of all? Are you familiar with it and are you familiar with Origen in general?

I have for many years thought of myself as a kind of "Origen's folk" in terms of Christian patristics, for he taught both apocatastasis and reincarnation, although the question is disputed because of contradictions in his teachings. But at least it is most usually attributed to him. In both questions I find myself thinking only "how could it be otherwise".

Wiki article on the issue: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocatastasis
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Nefastos
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Re: Apocatastasis (& Origen)

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This seems interesting & potentially manifold discussion; thank you for starting!
Rúnatýr wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 6:48 am
What is your stance towards apocatastasis, in more familiar terms, the teaching of universal restoration and the final salvation / liberation of all? Are you familiar with it and are you familiar with Origen in general?

I haven't studied Origen, even though I have read enough quotes to place him to the sane side of the Christian patriarchs. About the idea of universal restoration I have two thoughts. The first one is that I agree that the process of remanation will, and should, return to the unity and therefore to harmony, in all the different pilgrimages: individual, planetary, and so on, all the way to the great cosmic remanation. The second is that I (to my great regret!) cannnot believe in absolute harmony, but that there will always remain seeds for new manifestations. So even after the great cosmic night of pralaya, there will still be something to build on, because there will remain but slowly mending blemishes in the individual minds, plus new individual minds with their new challenges.

One of these immense development cycles that reach even past universal restoration is my hypothesis (given in The Ages of Man, IX) of the inner Ego as an angelic being that has gone through only partial enlightenment, and thus being chained to an animal being. Thus instead of total absolution, we have subtly ascending & intertwining (by correspondence & affiliation) spirals of spiritual development.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Re: Apocatastasis (& Origen)

Post by Benemal »

Nefastos wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 2:16 pm
The second is that I (to my great regret!) cannnot believe in absolute harmony
Absolute harmony is a paradox; it would absolute death and absolute life, at the same time. Perfection is so unnatural, that it's against the actual cosmic law, or "God's Law", if you like to use that problematic word.
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Re: Apocatastasis (& Origen)

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Rúnatýr wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 6:48 am
What is your stance towards apocatastasis, in more familiar terms, the teaching of universal restoration and the final salvation / liberation of all? Are you familiar with it and are you familiar with Origen in general?
I think I have four books by/on Origen, and he is my favourite church father. This does not make me an expert on his thought, but his idea of apocatastasis was one of the things that draw me to his writings. I do believe in fundamental but periodical apocatastasis.
One day of Brahma has 14 Indras; his life has 54 000 Indras. One day of Vishnu is the lifetime of Brahma. The lifetime of Vishnu is one day of Shiva.
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Re: Apocatastasis (& Origen)

Post by Nefastos »

Benemal wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 4:34 pm
Absolute harmony is a paradox; it would absolute death and absolute life, at the same time. Perfection is so unnatural, that it's against the actual cosmic law, or "God's Law", if you like to use that problematic word.

Some thoughts on this:

1) This is what I meant by naming the Fosforos' second book "Discordamelior", i.e. "discord is better". But the name itself is meant as a paradox, since its philosophy seeks to annihilate the system of suffering it cannot, and thus it ends up upholding it & making it worse.

2) I believe that on a certain (nirvânic) level this absolute harmony paradox is true at every moment: absolute death that is absolute life that is Absolute itself, realized. The fact that this perfection is "unnatural" is what makes it divine.

3) But because this nirvâna is usually only felt in the center of being, there are levels of existence where the wheel of fortune (Nature) still turn endlessly. And thus beings in their apotheosis must once again emerge from that blissful center that transcends emotion, suffering and reason as we see it. How deep that stride must be taken depends on how much there are things that can still be perfected, like I sketched in my recent Cartazon article (esp. footnote 12).
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Re: Apocatastasis (& Origen)

Post by Rúnatýr »

Thank you all for your thoughts! I have very little to say or to argue to those things you mentioned Nefastos.
Nefastos wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 2:16 pm
I haven't studied Origen, even though I have read enough quotes to place him to the sane side of the Christian patriarchs.
I haven't studied that much Origen directly myself either, I only know of him through some quotes and his line of thinking in general.
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Re: Apocatastasis (& Origen)

Post by Rúnatýr »

obnoxion wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 5:09 pm
I think I have four books by/on Origen, and he is my favourite church father. This does not make me an expert on his thought, but his idea of apocatastasis was one of the things that draw me to his writings. I do believe in fundamental but periodical apocatastasis.
Fra Obnoxion, can you recommend some books by/on Origen you have personally?
Ice is very cold and immeasurably slippery; it glistens as clear as glass and most like to gems; it is a floor wrought by the frost, fair to look upon.
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Re: Apocatastasis (& Origen)

Post by obnoxion »

Rúnatýr wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 4:54 pm
obnoxion wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 5:09 pm
I think I have four books by/on Origen, and he is my favourite church father. This does not make me an expert on his thought, but his idea of apocatastasis was one of the things that draw me to his writings. I do believe in fundamental but periodical apocatastasis.
Fra Obnoxion, can you recommend some books by/on Origen you have personally?
Hans Urs von Balthasar:
"Origen: Spirit and Fire: A Thematic Anthology of His Writings"

Origen:
"The Song of Songs: Commentary and Homilies (Ancient Christian Writers)"

Alan B. Scott:
"Origen and the Life of the Stars"
One day of Brahma has 14 Indras; his life has 54 000 Indras. One day of Vishnu is the lifetime of Brahma. The lifetime of Vishnu is one day of Shiva.
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Re: Apocatastasis (& Origen)

Post by Rúnatýr »

Thanks! It seems that my reading list isn't getting any shorter.
Ice is very cold and immeasurably slippery; it glistens as clear as glass and most like to gems; it is a floor wrought by the frost, fair to look upon.
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