Magic & Technology

Rational discussions on metaphysical and abstract topics.
Kavi
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Re: Magic & Technology

Post by Kavi »

I remember this!
I think at some point people thought it was credit cards or discount cards that were the Mark of the Beast.
I tend to think that 666 which is the human number, relates to some other things I am not fully conscious about.. Like the sign should be alliance that unites the mankind to worship.

Yet I understand how people nowadays must be thinking of neuralinks and other kind of implants.
Also evangelical Christians who see, horses with lions head and tail of a serpent and fire comes out of it, is easy to understand that when reading it in modern world's context you will see locusts rising as helicopters and tanks. For me also its very easy to see them in this context, but text makes a lot of references back to Isaiah's and Ezekiel's visions, maybe the writer also knew a lot of Talmud/Midrash etc.. scriptures? At least it's speculated so.
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Nefastos
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Re: Magic & Technology

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Polyhymnia wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 6:57 pmDoes anyone else remember the uproar in the 90s about the mark of the beast being chips implanted in us? I'm not even sure what the chip technology was supposed to be for, something about the NWO?

Yes; this actually came up just yesterday in lodge Lucifer's meeting which was about the Bible. I pointed out how this seems to be well on its way even literally, and it will be quite likely than in the next years it will be possibly to take a chip under one's skin in order to "buy or sell." To make such a chip acting both as an ID and one's bank access is, after all, a direction which has been going on for long, and now accelerated by the recent epidemics. (One reason I think conspiracy theorists claim that the whole epidemics is either a hoax or machinated by secret government agencies.) But the context was in our discussion that the symbolism in Revelation like in all esoteric scriptures can be fitted into any an age because the things they discuss are first and foremost timeless symbolism. So even if this comes to pass literally, it is not the one & only meaning, foreseen by John, only one of those different correct meanings.

Polyhymnia wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 6:57 pmI almost made a separate thread about the number of the beast, but this loosely falls under technology, so maybe I'll place it here for now and the powers that be can decide if it's appropriate.

We can easily split this conversation into its own thread if that seems wise a bit later. There has been some discussion about that familiar number of the beast in the SoA texts that have not been translated into English, mostly about the symbols of the sixes considered as six principles or aspects, lacking the meaning center in the seventh. This too came to pass in our yesterday's Bible discussion, since the original Hebreb Bible opens with the word which can be said to mean either "In the beginning" (= Genesis) or "Created six." I.e. the first thing there can be said about cosmos is the emanation or radiation of the 3 x 2= six divine principles from the seventh, the secret middle point. But without this meaning-giving even though unseen seventh, the seeming perfection of the six lower become demonic.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Re: Magic & Technology

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Nefastos wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 2:50 pm
For our Finnish readers, here is the same piece of news from Helsingin Sanomat. It ends with this quote I didn't stumble upon in the English news:

”Sitä ennen on syytä pohtia, onko ihmisten elimillä varustetun sian tai apinan kasvattaminen eettisesti perusteltua. Oma mielipiteeni on se, että niin kauan kuin me kasvatamme tuotantoeläimiä ruoaksi, olisi kimeerieläinten kieltäminen aikamoista hurskastelua.”

("Before [the chimeras are born] should be pondered whether a pig or a monkey with human organs is ethically justifiably. My own opinion is that as long as we raise cattle for food, it would be quite hypocritical to forbid chimera animals.") I have two problems with this statement: not only its nuances are wrong & simplifying, but also the indicated direction, for we should indeed stop raising cattle for food, at least in the present wholly industrialized way. The problem to do this is mostly because of cultural habit, which cannot be said of making of chimeras.
I think the idea of justifying something ethically questionable with another habit we are already exhibiting is highly unreasonable. A scientist making this lazy argument in the main news paper gives people completely wrong ideas of ethical questions we are facing and how they should be dealt with. One of the problems is that while some sciences are heading forward in understanding the consciousness of animals (and all natural world), some sciences still work like the world was only mechanistic with humans as the only exception and not questioning the problems of this kind of humanocentrism. It would be crucial to place animals on the same spectrum of consciousness with humans, in a way that would take into account the possibility (which I believe is a fact) of all consciousness being of the same essence. The ethical questions of science should not be answered through a world-view that only accepts that which science can confirm at the moment but instead being aware of the potential future understanding.

About the microchips:

In this age, we are already placing various human made implants, improvements, cardiac pacemakers, etc. inside our bodies. I guess it's not that different when technology develops and new kind of "things" will be placed inside us. At least it's much better than growing chimeras for replacement parts. But maybe there is a bit of the same fear that there has been toward animals (or humans) that seem to live on the verges of liminalities, are ambiguos in a way or another or contradict our categories. They are "dirty" and dangerous. The fear of humans turning into machines might share some similar features. What the mark of the beast is thought to be about, seems to have certain differences whether it is understood in some exoteric ways of conspiracies compared to how it's potentially interpreted in esoteric contexts. I have to admit that "the number of the beast" is one of those things I have never really thought of much and don't even have any intuitive ideas about.
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Polyhymnia
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Re: Magic & Technology

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I'm so apathetic towards conspiracies that even if the NWO were Anunnaki lizard overlords who lived in the centre of the earth I probably wouldn't care either way. But what's so interesting to me is the way these conspiracies come to be and all the blurred lines and issues that get conflated.
Let's say the Mark of the Beast is indeed the microchip getting implanted that we can make transactions with. Then what? What end goal am I missing? What does it have to do with the Apocalypse?
I think I may still have my dad's copy of the book The Mark of the Beast by Peter Lalonde still kicking around somewhere. At least I hope I do. Surely it will answer my questions of exactly what it is we're to be afraid of. I have a sneaking suspicion the book's answer will be Satan though.
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Nefastos
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Re: Magic & Technology

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Aquila wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 9:47 pmIt would be crucial to place animals on the same spectrum of consciousness with humans, in a way that would take into account the possibility (which I believe is a fact) of all consciousness being of the same essence.

I feel very sad that our relation to animal kingdom has not been a matter of more discussion in the contemporary culture. Theosophists called animals "our younger brothers" and I have called them "our children." For any occultists there should be no question whether we share the same essential familiality, since such unity follows from the basic precepts of esotericism.

Polyhymnia wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 11:58 pmLet's say the Mark of the Beast is indeed the microchip getting implanted that we can make transactions with. Then what? What end goal am I missing? What does it have to do with the Apocalypse?

Yes, Satan is seen to follow the old "stealing underpants --> profit" schema. The basic problem behind these kind of beliefs is that the original idea (here, the Revelation) is a symbolic, and it is being read as being literal. In a symbolic system, every part remains symblic, including the idea of "the Beast" itself.

The closest we can get to this idea, taking as much literally as possibly, comes to the idea of "evilness" in a culture that has been evolved highly but not accepted demands of spirituality (oneness), from our Esoteric Buddhism reading:

Nefastos wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:50 am
Koot Hoomi in Esoteric Buddhism, p.74 wrote:When your race, the fifth, will have reached its zenith of physical intellectuality, and developed its highest civilization (remember the difference we make between material and spiritual civilizations), unable to go any higher in its own cycle, its progress towards absolute evil will be arrested (as its predecessors, the Lemurians and the Atlanteans, the men of the third and fourth races, were arrested in their progress towards the same) by one of such cataclysmic changes, its great civilization destroyed, and all the sub-races of that race will be found going down their respective cycles, after a short period of glory and learning.

Koot Hoomi in Esoteric Buddhism, p.75 wrote:The worldly men of science in that ["Atlantean"] race had learned the secrets of the disintegration and reintegration of matter, which few but practical spiritualists as yet know to be possible, and of control over the elementals, by means of which that and other even more portentous phenomena can be produced. Such powers in the hands of persons willing to use them for merely selfish and unscrupulous ends must not only be productive of social disaster, but also for the persons who hold them, of progress in the direction of that evilly spiritual exaltation which is far more terrible result than suffering and inconvenience in this world.

Polyhymnia wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 11:58 pmAnunnaki lizard overlords who lived in the centre of the earth

By the way, these conspiracy theories stem directly from theosophist teachings. They can be traced back to Blavatsky and Bailey's teachings about the unseen masters, which the latter claimed were living inside earth in a mystic kingdom of Shamballa and ruled by Sanat Kumâra, who is no other than Lucifer enthroned. By taking literally these theosophical teachings which are anything but the twodimensional poles of the Christian fanatics, the 20th century idea of technically advanced "master races" sprang to being, now followed more & more of the conspiracy content – like it always happens when the cultural situation has become inflammated.

So, magic has become technology: the very same idea of the "masters in the centre of the earth," discussing the destiny of nations, has taken its modern form in these conspiracy beliefs. Even though every age sees the same ideas through its own lenses, very little has actually changed. It has been more than 130 years since Blavatsky mentioned the extraterrestrial nature of these unseen masters – but I can well imagine her laughing herself to tears when seeing how those teachings are now taken, and to what purposes they have become twisted.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Re: Magic & Technology

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Nefastos wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 9:16 am
Aquila wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 9:47 pmIt would be crucial to place animals on the same spectrum of consciousness with humans, in a way that would take into account the possibility (which I believe is a fact) of all consciousness being of the same essence.

I feel very sad that our relation to animal kingdom has not been a matter of more discussion in the contemporary culture. Theosophists called animals "our younger brothers" and I have called them "our children." For any occultists there should be no question whether we share the same essential familiality, since such unity follows from the basic precepts of esotericism.

Polyhymnia wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 11:58 pmLet's say the Mark of the Beast is indeed the microchip getting implanted that we can make transactions with. Then what? What end goal am I missing? What does it have to do with the Apocalypse?

Yes, Satan is seen to follow the old "stealing underpants --> profit" schema. The basic problem behind these kind of beliefs is that the original idea (here, the Revelation) is a symbolic, and it is being read as being literal. In a symbolic system, every part remains symblic, including the idea of "the Beast" itself.

The closest we can get to this idea, taking as much literally as possibly, comes to the idea of "evilness" in a culture that has been evolved highly but not accepted demands of spirituality (oneness), from our Esoteric Buddhism.
It might be just my emphasis but sometimes I feel like being one of the cells or organs of the Beast. Kind of inverted oneness that one can't escape as it is the Leviathan that chew people like Jonah.
So absolutely, it's symbolic and metaphoric too and it's terrifying that what is God anyway if It has given power for such power in the hands and still one strife for keeping one's head (is this pun intended for lodge Salome? :lol:)


Oh, I forgot to mention about Aquila's comment too. I have tried to extend this empathy also to objects which normally are not seen as living beings or having soul.
Maybe I have told this thousand times but it's fascinating seeing relation of Theosophical orders heritage (yet maybe not fully on their account) in some way when during 1950 Ravi Shankar started to present hindustani music in Anglo-American world. In Monterey
Or Woodstock festival he became upset and offended seeing The Who smashing their instruments into pieces and after it Jimi Hendrix setting his guitar on fire. I don't know why this technological advancement always has to have destruction element very much on surface. The idea of nuclear bomb and its heritage being hippies and new age aquarians destroying stuff or minds (I am not against drugs per se but excessive amount. Drugs as a technology? )

Then you have person coming from part of tradition where walking over your instrument is seen as dishonorable act. I have tried to see instruments as well as something more than just objects after this.
Edit: did in history warriors held their swords and weaponry in similar light? I think magical thinking is not very far from this but I think in metal tradition sometimes musicians are introduced as some form of fighters with their "axes". I relate this to very simplistic (not bad) c understanding of red aspect which indeed is Martian.
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Re: Magic & Technology

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Kavi wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:05 pm --did in history warriors held their swords and weaponry in similar light? I think magical thinking is not very far from this--
I adore the knightly legends where the romantic spirit reaches to this relationship with the weapons. Everything has its place and meaning. Another interesting expression of this same idea was one of the most eye-catching details in the third season of Twin Peaks, where the weapon of a dwarfish assassin becomes so much part of the murderer that when disarmed, pieces of skin were ripped and left on the weapon. In both of the examples the arms have become highly meaningful for their owners, but we could continue the idea of the 666 here by interpreting the assassin to have failed to penetrate beyond the dualist mindset, and thus although being highly skillful in his work, the central sun has been lost and the "puppeteer" is actually merging with his puppet, in sort of a fetishistic way, and thus becoming a puppet himself. Ideally, the Knight firmly knows his realtion to his tools and while holding them valuable in meaning and being, there's respectful distance yet also ties to the correspondences of the inner potential the outer sword is momentarily objectifying. Thus the center is hold and the tools follow the intention instead of becoming the masters.

Another, more tantric interpretation could be made where the assassin merging in to the gun has this very generous path to go through where the unimaginably heavy elemental powers of the weapon are having to be worked through in a superhuman effort of ascending with such burden on ones hands. Yet wielding the weapon itself has granted a sort of greater power to do this, but you know, it's a terribly dangerous going around your daily business with your finger glued on a trigger of a gun. :D
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Re: Magic & Technology

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Nefastos wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 9:16 am
Polyhymnia wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 11:58 pmAnunnaki lizard overlords who lived in the centre of the earth

By the way, these conspiracy theories stem directly from theosophist teachings. They can be traced back to Blavatsky and Bailey's teachings about the unseen masters ... "


Wow, this I did not know! Is this something that is found in the Secret Doctrine?
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Nefastos
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Re: Magic & Technology

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Polyhymnia wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:36 pmWow, this I did not know! Is this something that is found in the Secret Doctrine?

In ovo, yes, since the Secret Doctrine teaches how the first masters came to our planet from Venus. But this first occult notion got physicalized twice after that. First, Alice Bailey started to talk about Shamballa as the secret place in Earth, occupied by these masters and particularly of the "first ray," which (to her) meant that it was too high to bother too much with love (which would be the function of the "second ray" – these are âtma and buddhi in our system, but unlike Bailey, I do not believe that they can be separated). Second, from the New-Aged theosophy of Bailey, who still tried to be Blavatskyan, sprang the actual New Age we know today, the one which mostly forgot Blavatsky and took from Bailey only the crudest form, making it even cruder. And presto, we have alien visitors whose morals surpass (or differ from) humans so much that it will lead to pretty awkward situations.

And of course it is possible to cite some distant author being of the same opinion (like Däniken did to Blavatsky), because people are usually too uninterested to check the first sources & notice the humongous differences in nuances & depth. Handwaving those, yes, Blavatsky taught that the leaders of the unseen masters are practically space aliens. Zoom! With the same logic, though, by which Fosforos is about teaching to people how to pull rabbits out of tophats.

Smaragd wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 7:10 pm
Kavi wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:05 pm--did in history warriors held their swords and weaponry in similar light? I think magical thinking is not very far from this--


I adore the knightly legends where the romantic spirit reaches to this relationship with the weapons. Everything has its place and meaning. (...) Ideally, the Knight firmly knows his realtion to his tools and while holding them valuable in meaning and being, there's respectful distance yet also ties to the correspondences of the inner potential the outer sword is momentarily objectifying.


The last night I read some beautiful Arthurian tales. When Arthur has got his Excalibur, the following discussion [occurs]:

'Which do you hold more dear, the sharp sword or its scabbard?' asked Merlin.
'The sword of course,' said Arthur.
'Then more fool you,' said Merlin gravely. 'For the scabbard is worth ten such swords. All the while you wear it at your side, you will not shed a single drop of blood, no matter how badly you are wounded.'

The story of Sir Balin would be even more apparent parable about problems of weapons and fighting, but I'm afraid it would go too far from the discussion at hand.

In order to collect together all these stray strings – reptilians, Arthurians, and the problems of modern science – I'd say that whenever there is a mindset that sees things in two, a good something versus evil something else, without taking carefully heed of nuances and depth of being, there will be violence, torture, and oppression. And people responsible for those will think that they are doing a huge favor for the humankind.

edit: YouTube video I linked was removed, so I had to replace it.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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