Magic & Technology

Rational discussions on metaphysical and abstract topics.
Angolmois

Magic & Technology

Post by Angolmois »

In some instances it is said that Technology is inseparable from what would have been called magic in ancient times. It seems that the way civilization has transformed in a mere 100 years that tehcnological civilization is one of the signs of the Aquarian age both in good and in bad sense, and I believe Lucifer being in a keyrole in this transformation of civilization from the premodern world to future forms of tehcnological advancement, and his role is quite ambivalent in that esoteric sense that Lucifer embodies, giving man tools of advancement that man needs to learn how to harness.

The traditional authors such as Evola critiziced the so called second industrial revolution quite harshly, and for a long time I thought it being like the attempt of Munchausen to try to solve problems that industrialization and Technology has brought to the world with its own means, but lately I have changed my view point in this matter to a more Science friendly and I think that as Mankind learns to harness non-pollutive forms of Technology via scientific advancement, many of the problems created by the last few hundred years could perhaps be solved. In the same time it require that the basis of Science goes a transformation, and mankind's spiritual attitude / view point must also change. At the same time I still maintain a critical attitude toward many forms of so called progress, and in some cases the magical effects of Technology can be seen to form that area of "showing great Signs and Wonders, capable of deceiving even the elect" in the sense that this kind of material advancement can lure man away from spiritual Progress.

But how are technology and magic intertwined? I think the cue to this line of thought crystallizes in the Hermetic axiom "Everything is mental"; nothing could be created without it first being a mental image in the mind of its creator. "Without him nothing was made that is made" says the Johannite Gospel about the Logos. Something clearly imparts the mental magic in the mind of man who then materializes and externalizes the images of the mental forms into creative tools of advancement.
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Nefastos
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Re: Magic & Technology

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A friend just recently sent me a book, "Technic and Magic: The Reconstruction of Reality" by Federico Campagna. So far my little leafing through it has not awakened in me any new insights, though.

My own approach to technology is basically neutral. There are many things in new scientific technology that are extremely bad, and an equal amount of things that are extremely good. I think that technology is so new thing for the humankind that we simply do not understand what we have our hands yet, and that is why we are also making a great deal of havoc with the thing which could be just a great blessing. This has been going for two centuries or so, but such a time is in the great scale of ages just a blink, so it is no surprise that we have not learned to cope with this new power yet. Interestingly, it brings to mind the old myth of discovering sex & making it sin by severe misuse of producing monsters. What worries me even more than our horrible destruction of nature is the ability of the modern science to actually produce monsters in a vat. For example, human spare organs planted on animals, or brains without bodies. Makers of such experiments have world views without a spiritual and esoteric levels, so they are completely unable to fathom the results of their experiments on those levels. Empathy would be enough of a yardstick to go forth safely, but as we know, humankind does not possess that kind of empathy yet.

So, technology is not only Luciferian, it is also Satanic, and includes both the Bright and the Dark face. But there is nothing we can do to move the hands of the clock backwards; we simply have to use our technology more wisely. Like Horace said, the word once let loose cannot be taken back. "Word" here being therefore also logos in the meaning of a creative pattern of knowledge, as for Neoplatonists or in the beginning of the Gospel of John, like you mentioned. This is a real challenge. Until some new flood sinks our civilizatins, there will always be some scientist black magicians growing human tissue on mice, and for me personally this is almost unbearable to think. For them, it's just a neutral or even titillating challenge for more knowlegde i.e. more Baconian power. On spiritual level, this is a challenge equal to the problem of the islands made of plastic bags – another one of the extremely many side effects of the union of technological knowhow meeting our Neanderthalian level of ethics. To me, the answer to the problem would be in advancing on the collective ethical application and not in regression on the collective technological application.

Concerning the similarity & difference between magic & technology, to me the most important factor is magic's use of whole beings, like the human microcosm without any necessary tools. True magic is a seamless tunic: it works with the whole beings, from the wholeness of the being using it, the magician as a microcosm (logos!). Technology of the recent years has finally approached a similar ideal, to make its inventions smooth & interconnected. But there is a long way to go still, mostly because the intentions are often wrong (based on need for making quick monetary profit instead of making beautiful, endurable changes).
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Re: Magic & Technology

Post by Smaragd »

Angolmois wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:25 pm The traditional authors such as Evola critiziced the so called second industrial revolution quite harshly, and for a long time I thought it being like the attempt of Munchausen to try to solve problems that industrialization and Technology has brought to the world with its own means, but lately I have changed my view point in this matter to a more Science friendly and I think that as Mankind learns to harness non-pollutive forms of Technology via scientific advancement, many of the problems created by the last few hundred years could perhaps be solved.
The problem of the double-edged sword would be indeed better to be confronted in the usage of the sword instead of burying or tossing it to the lake, the latter options often rooting in regressions. I tend to see new technologies being challenges in using the power, given through the tool, in a right way. We could even see karmic weight accumulating to certain tools demanding us to find solutions to refining those tools and the ways we use them. (A bit tautological paragraph as I read Nefastos’ answer afterwards, but hopefully there’s no harm giving a bit different words to these things.)

Through personally chosen areas of creative work I have had to study my technologically advanced tools quite extensively, which always leads to this very material bound state of mind. It is not a state of mind I particularly like*, being far from the heights the search longs for, and the creative work ultimately aims to lift itself towards. Seeing how magic relates to this fallen state of mind – the consciousness of technology, should we say, – I think we are talking about magic as the mass of materia/energy arranged in to very specific forms. This could be seen as one of the bottom most points of the Luciferian falling arch. I tend to use magic also at least in two more meanings:
1. This low point appears in more electrified manner which means shakti is recognized amidst the maya and I think magic as a sparkling thing.
2. I work with the spark in a way that strives to recognize the high point of the Luciferian arch and thus being able to join its low points to the ascending arch of Christos.

From these three points of magic, technology seems to be woven in to relevant challenges of humanity, and not necessarily simplified as purely to be ignored as maya.

* I have often been a bit jealous of the simplicity of the tools of writers just in the sense Nefastos seemed to refer by ”magic’s use of whole beings, like the human microcosm without any necessary tools”, i.e. the tools being well integrated to the whole, ”smooth & interconnected” in a way that it’s a challenge to point where the human ends and the tool begins. Like the internet seen as a surface on which the astral body has been projected and it’s questionable how one would make the difference between the two.
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Re: Magic & Technology

Post by Aquila »

Just some quick thoughts about technology and it's possible connections with magic. What I think technology is about, is that it's a way we reform physical matter to different forms and usages. Basically anything from sticks and stones is technology. It seems primitive but it is still about the same as modern technology: a certain kind of two-way relationship with the "physical world". It works both ways because when we reform the world, we are not only changing the world around us but we change ourselves in the process as well. Yet the main change that has happened only relatively recently during the increasing technological advancement, is the wrong idea that the physical matter is not alive and we can use it anyway we want (and it includes a certain kind of chain reaction: once we start using any kind of technology, we will be in need of more and more advanced techniques of curing all the wounds we have caused with our inventions). I think this mechanistic idea of the world is what makes technology seem non-magical and inorganic. In a more animistic and pantheistic worldview, technology is probably not only something inorganic but it is seen in more holistic ways which includes the idea that everything we do has at least some magical qualities, but of course understanding magical qualities does not necessarily bring forth ethical considerations. There are some modern scientific ideas about consciousness being one of the basic qualities of all physical matter but nothing that would change the paradigm yet.
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Re: Magic & Technology

Post by Kavi »

Aquila wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:10 am Just some quick thoughts about technology and it's possible connections with magic. What I think technology is about, is that it's a way we reform physical matter to different forms and usages. Basically anything from sticks and stones is technology. It seems primitive but it is still about the same as modern technology: a certain kind of two-way relationship with the "physical world". It works both ways because when we reform the world, we are not only changing the world around us but we change ourselves in the process as well. Yet the main change that has happened only relatively recently during the increasing technological advancement, is the wrong idea that the physical matter is not alive and we can use it anyway we want (and it includes a certain kind of chain reaction: once we start using any kind of technology, we will be in need of more and more advanced techniques of curing all the wounds we have caused with our inventions). I think this mechanistic idea of the world is what makes technology seem non-magical and inorganic. In a more animistic and pantheistic worldview, technology is probably not only something inorganic but it is seen in more holistic ways which includes the idea that everything we do has at least some magical qualities, but of course understanding magical qualities does not necessarily bring forth ethical considerations. There are some modern scientific ideas about consciousness being one of the basic qualities of all physical matter but nothing that would change the paradigm yet.
Very superficially I thought one day about this thread too and thought of writing systems, alphabets, invention of fire and chair. Even a spoon, although in some cultures one might not use chair at all or spoon has other extra-purposes too, for example using it for eating rice. This just for elaborating on your words about different forms and usages.





Anyway after spending six hours of reading various articles about Indo-e/-iranian mythologies relating to cattle, dragons, god of rain and thunder and totems because of this thread here, I decided that it's too much to write here, at least anything in detailed manner.
Briefly put I think magic and technology are always interconnected when looking through mythological stories which seem to describe artisan people, someone with big hammer and then slithering being. For corded ware culture (hammer-axe culture) I guess it sounds quite reasonable that these important elements also take shape as deities and magical attributes.
So basically just a bit of obsessive reading through Chaoskampf-myths that I could find that some people have written.

The rambling went of course more to the topic of dragon archetype but someone could imagine that technology and power, magic overall might have a dragonic influence on people but at least in myths this power is never abandonded, it's still being used in negative and positive.
Idea that magic and technology are also seemingly connected to each other was my other point.
Blacksmith and cattle brings the context and technology and dragon-slayer, who has the readiness and enhanced spirit, while using rod or staff is putting his magical efforts concentrated.
Like how in Shahnameh, Fereydun confronts Zahhak, the Serpent-King by hitting his cow-shaped wand on Zahhak's shoulders where snakes are growing, heart and head, basically making it to become a Zoroastrian slogan about deeds, thoughts and mind. But I guess one could see it through magic too and this 3+3 wrestling maybe too.
It's interesting interpretation of Prometheus myth with human sacrificial and mimetic elements and sometimes has slightly apocalyptic point of views that are common in Abrahamic religions.
In Ferdowsi's story I guess Zahhak isn't slayed but chained into a mountain. Fire and iron as gifts for mankind are given by blacksmith, who forged this cow-headed staff.
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They pronounced them to be Khizr and living water – this is true.
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Re: Magic & Technology

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Nefastos wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 11:55 amWhat worries me even more than our horrible destruction of nature is the ability of the modern science to actually produce monsters in a vat. For example, human spare organs planted on animals, or brains without bodies. Makers of such experiments have world views without a spiritual and esoteric levels, so they are completely unable to fathom the results of their experiments on those levels. Empathy would be enough of a yardstick to go forth safely, but as we know, humankind does not possess that kind of empathy yet.

Unluckily, this kind of news is not going to end anytime soon. It is not only the lack of empathy towards different kinds of living being, but also the cultural attempt to escape death & make human beings live (once again, vampirically) no matter what, that spawns monsters both literally & figuratively.

News from the Cell (a good demiurgic name, by the way) journal: Chimeric contribution of human extended pluripotent stem cells to monkey embryos ex vivo. A less scientific report on the project can be found e.g. here: Part-monkey, part-human embryos successful in China.

For our Finnish readers, here is the same piece of news from Helsingin Sanomat. It ends with this quote I didn't stumble upon in the English news:

”Sitä ennen on syytä pohtia, onko ihmisten elimillä varustetun sian tai apinan kasvattaminen eettisesti perusteltua. Oma mielipiteeni on se, että niin kauan kuin me kasvatamme tuotantoeläimiä ruoaksi, olisi kimeerieläinten kieltäminen aikamoista hurskastelua.”

("Before [the chimeras are born] should be pondered whether a pig or a monkey with human organs is ethically justifiably. My own opinion is that as long as we raise cattle for food, it would be quite hypocritical to forbid chimera animals.") I have two problems with this statement: not only its nuances are wrong & simplifying, but also the indicated direction, for we should indeed stop raising cattle for food, at least in the present wholly industrialized way. The problem to do this is mostly because of cultural habit, which cannot be said of making of chimeras.

For example here is some (very moderate) discussion about these ethical problems.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
Angolmois

Re: Magic & Technology

Post by Angolmois »

You got here before me! That kind of scientific applications represent almost absolute evil for myself.
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Re: Magic & Technology

Post by Kavi »

Yes aforementioned science news belong to mythological category, that one should definitely steal the cattle of the gods and hide in the mountains.. :lol:

Yet I think use of pig's heart for people with heart problems have already been tried many decades ago or something like this, some have good groundings on ethics but in my opinion chimera-experiments don't.
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Re: Magic & Technology

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Making chimeras is the most clicheic evil act of the black magicians in fantasy. Quite a percentage of your run of the mill roleplaying game experience comes from fighting monsters that are results from fusing together of different kinds of animals in cellular level. When encountered in stories and folklore, these tales usually end in the thus produced monsters escaping and wreaking their revenge of their twisted being on their makers. An interesting occult tidbit: Those of us who have read The Secret Doctrine part II: Anthropogenesis, know that this is also what Blavatsky taught what, in part, brought about the ruin of the mythic (but to theosophists, prehistorically real) Atlantis.

Scientists may – validly – point out that much of the strong opinion against chimera experiments stems from purely intuitive fear: it is so much against our basic programming as integrated creatures. Yet that intuition (which might or might not be baseless – personally I believe it to be a healthy intuition from one's buddhic holism) is not the core of the problem; problem is the most fundamental way of abuse and exploitation that is the root of the chimera experiments. To forcifully give birth to living, feeling, on their own way self-conscious (this is a diamond hard claim of all spiritualism) beings that would otherwise never exist, just in order that they could be killed for spare parts if they somehow survive their abominal existence long enough, is one of the cruelest forms of existential torture one is able to think of.

Yet such a science is not a new form of madness, only a peak of a very old idea – and one needs not believe in Atlantis.

It is one of the most basic forms of black magic to use the ancient occult idea of pars pro toto to give correspondential virtues (= powers) of a creature to one's personal magical aim. Reading any two pages of Agrippa's Natural Magic or similar text gives us many examples of this kind of lore. Long before industrial revolution magicians everywhere sought out different kinds of animals to rip them down to spell components. Sometimes this also involved torture, like in the infamous toad experiment.

This is one of the reasons why I have insisted the use of the terms like "black magic," "lesser magic," and so on even in our modern times, to think about the many nuances which manifest on ethical level. All too often people tend to think that ends justify the means. But even if one uses magic that works, it is no sign that it should be used: one can bring about results in twisted methods. "If it works, use it" is a false dogma, but it is adopted to science from magic.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Re: Magic & Technology

Post by Polyhymnia »

I don't know if this is the best thread for this. I almost made a separate thread about the number of the beast, but this loosely falls under technology, so maybe I'll place it here for now and the powers that be can decide if it's appropriate. But this morning I was reading a bit of Revelations and came to 13:16-18
"And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
Does anyone else remember the uproar in the 90s about the mark of the beast being chips implanted in us? I'm not even sure what the chip technology was supposed to be for, something about the NWO? I have very clear memories of my dad telling me as a child if anyone was to ever try to implant me with the mark of the beast, to resist at all costs, even if it meant death.
"Limited love asks for possession of the beloved, but the unlimited asks only for itself." -Kahlil Gibran
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