What is a symbol?

Symbols and allegories.
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Aperiemus
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What is a symbol?

Post by Aperiemus »

The topic has been on my mind for some time now. And since the question is broad, I would encourage talking from a perspective of your heart, or at least consider the question not only as a philosophical conundrum, but something that has to do with your experience in the occult. So here it is:

What is a symbol? What does the symbol do and why?

I can go first:

A symbol is something that works as a bridge between ”spheres” of existence. For example it can connect the spiritual and material, godly and human, inner and outer, subjective and objective, ethical and aesthetical etc. I can also conceive the symbol as a common point of reference between beings, a sort of resonance that manifests both in horizontal axis (f. ex. resonance felt between disciples) but also in vertical (resonance between master and the disciple).

Symbols are not simply heaps of learnt definitions or free associations. They seem to have a life of their own that can’t simply be contained, and the life of a symbol is exemplified on different micro-macro levels. On a smaller scale my interpretation of a symbol or attitude towards it changes as I change. On a bigger scale I can think of examples, such as the changes in astrological understanding through astronomical findings, creation of new religious systems based on re-interpretation of pre-existing symbols, or for example how a pentagram has changed throughout the ages.

A Symbol is not limited to any particular (human) faculty. It exists to the world of senses, to the world of mind, and to the world of spirit. It is common to think that a symbol is something we can see, but this doen’t necessarily have to be the case. A sound or a scent can be a symbol in as much as a sigil drawn on parchment. And when it comes to language (which is either a blueprint of how symbols operate or a special case amongst them) a magical word or an incantation can be thought of as a symbol - and when it is, it changes from a conveyer of a particular, socially mediated meaning to something different. The acceptance and primacy of the world of spirit (something I believe most occultists adhere to at least on some level) points to the idea that the appearance of a symbol, although not arbitrary, is secondary to its essence. On the said vertical axis, when dealing for example with a deity, an ”economy” of symbols can arise: In the presence of the sacred, the symbol "emanates”, illuminates, consecrates etc. and in a sacrifice the symbol ”re-emanates” from low to high.

Some symbols are, for me, more magnetic than others, that is, I’m drawn towards them, for reasons that are partly known and partly unknown to me. They can nourish something in me (maybe analogously in a way art nourishes me), or, if not approached with care, they can make me obsess over them.

I dislike thinking symbols as something that are thought of as mere correlations, the reduction of a symbol to a sort of cryptogram which you have to decode and then you’re done with it. I believe this happens when the world of spirit is thought of as being so abstract that no word can describe it, and therefore it’s best to just accept common correlations with face value. ”This is how we have understood the symbol for generations, and we’re just going to keep on repeating what has been said - now one knows what it actually means, so just go with it”
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Re: What is a symbol?

Post by Kenazis »

(adding to views above) at their best I see symbols in occultism representing living gateways, nexions between dimensions and states. Symbols are also concentrations points of energies, their conductors and messengers.
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Smaragd
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Re: What is a symbol?

Post by Smaragd »

This topic gives really nice perspective on how symbols base on archetypes, and on the nature of archetypes themselves. To start, a simple idea of an archetype could be represented by basic geometric froms, like 0, which then can be seen as the basis of all the multitudes of forms which follow the basic parental form of the archetype with with more complex ones i.e. ones that have more form. When we recognize an archetype, for example the one represented by the symbol 0, from more complex forms, we can draw lines to its meanings from the specific towards their abstraction such as the womb, the feminine, chaos etc. and understand that all these particular and differentiated meanings speak of the depth and power hidden within the archetype’s invisible vastness of abstraction. Let’s take some examples from what has been said here about symbols:
Aperiemus wrote: Wed Feb 22, 2023 7:33 amSymbols are not simply heaps of learnt definitions or free associations. They seem to have a life of their own-- On a bigger scale I can think of examples, such as the changes in astrological understanding through astronomical findings--
It is the archetypal being behind the symbol where we can find its roots and why it is not a learnt definition or free association. And when these aforementioned changes happen, the archetype doesn’t change but rather the way we observe them changes. Usually this means that we just realize how another archetype relates to the one we are observing. As an experience this can feel like the face of a Master morphing in to another (a classic theatrical entrance of Satan), or the Demons’ Cube twists inside out and you realize all the sides are interconnected and hold within themselves an infinite amount of variations.
Aperiemus wrote: Wed Feb 22, 2023 7:33 amIt is common to think that a symbol is something we can see, but this doen’t necessarily have to be the case. A sound or a scent can be a symbol in as much as a sigil drawn on parchment.
An so we can see how all the world is a symbol, and behind all creation are the archetypes. The beast with seven heads, Satan as the Dragon, and the Lady riding the beast giving birth to the basic forms, and as the archetypes intermingle the forms get more complex and make all sorts of variations of specificity. In this sense, by symbols we trace through this complexity between utter meaningless variations and the archetypes who are meaningful in divine proportions. This tracing attribute of symbols is pretty much the same as Kenazis’ gateways or nexions.
"Would to God that all the Lord's people were Prophets”, Numbers 11:29 as echoed by William Blake
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Nebenkheperu
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Re: What is a symbol?

Post by Nebenkheperu »

As frater Smaragd quoth, but also methinks, it has been said that on our material plane symbols represent verities; but on the Astral plane at least, verities instead appear as symbols. So it would seem that a very keen mind indeed is required to grasp betwixt the twain. It's an integral Mystery/Runa of human existence and ideation. Fans the Black Flame mayhaps.
Maybe I do have a point, actually, to this posting (how unlike of me)...a symbol can sometimes (even usually) refer to an archetype of the collective (un)conscious - seemingly often to an individual's preferences thereof, "only". Is this error? A mistaken approach? Certainly it appears "true" that specific symbols "speak" to one louder than divers others. However, could all this banter be in vain...emanating/bespeaking (maha)maya? Merely subjective clairvoyance aka delusion?

Those aspects we call "symbols" might be minor features or ephemera of the Absolute. It likely doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. Maybe follow our individual likes/dislikes about these manifestations, each according to our own "hearts"; thereby expressing our unique "mirror-shardnesses" of the One. It's important that we be separate for the sake of Unity; it's important we be One for the sake of separateness (a possible lie). To manifest universal threefoldness; to become it, instead of using it as a mere tool.

Hmm, therefore: "what is a symbol?". To wit: a sign-post, a crutch, a finger pointing at the Moon (not just our Luna but any suitable satellite or the like); a device aiding us in our ascension. Let us...absorb/assimilate this instead of worrying about it. The symbol is always You. Need I belabour this point? Well, I shall: any symbol is ultimately You. And what are you? It's not lawful for me to utter the answer; for you know it already & the Karma Kops are after me 😘
Ἐθεώρουν τὸν Σατανᾶν ὡς ἀστραπὴν.
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Aperiemus
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Re: What is a symbol?

Post by Aperiemus »

Nebenkheperu wrote: Fri Feb 24, 2023 3:09 am for you know it already & the Karma Kops are after me
Those guys are the reason I wear these Talaria of Mercury / Speed boots / Adidas Torsions ;)
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Aperiemus
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Re: What is a symbol?

Post by Aperiemus »

Kenazis wrote: Wed Feb 22, 2023 11:57 am at their best I see symbols in occultism representing living gateways, nexions between dimensions and states.
This is certainly how a symbol feels, it has this quality of a magical portal which connects me with other places, other times, other people. Extending this to other types of places, other types of time: Dimensions and states - in a mundane experience I can only observe time linearly and postulate the existence of eternity, maybe have short flashes of it during my ’brief trek from womb to tomb’, but to have an experience of a completely different type of time… Even though there is a lot of what can be (and should be) said - and criticized - in alien abduction stories, the implications brought by the phenomenon of missing time fascinate me. Time mustn’t necessarily be split into equal parts, like frames in a movie.
Smaragd wrote: Wed Feb 22, 2023 1:25 pm To start, a simple idea of an archetype could be represented by basic geometric froms, like 0, which then can be seen as the basis of all the multitudes of forms which follow the basic parental form of the archetype with with more complex ones i.e. ones that have more form.
Nebenkheperu wrote: Fri Feb 24, 2023 3:09 am It's important that we be separate for the sake of Unity; it's important we be One for the sake of separateness (a possible lie). To manifest universal threefoldness; to become it, instead of using it as a mere tool.
As a counterpoint (not an objection), I want to share a personal experience: Magico-mathematical workings such as numerology or sacred geometry do not vibe well with temperaments such as myself, for there are examples of people slowly consumed by their perpetual motion machines and squarings of circle. This obsessiveness is something that shifts its mask all the time, and it is certainly not only limited to mathematics. However the particular addictiveness of the symbols of mathematics have something to do, I guess, with at least two things that are linked, but don’t necessarily follow one another:

1. The ”high” I experience when being in the presence of perfection implied by mathematics (fractals, symmetries, ratios wtc.). I remember the story of pythagoreans drowning one of their own (Hippasus) when he suggested the existence of irrational numbers. Mathematics posesses an aura of completeness that doesn’t have discrepancies.

2. My tendency to equate capital T Truth as an absence of tension. Whenever the One (0 or 1) is invoked, I am reminded that it is easy to consider the return to the One as a return to a blissful state in which no tensions exist (1=1). Whether I imagine the dissolvement back into the light, or the decomposition of matter back into the womb of the earth, I can also see a flipside in these images. This flipside can be expressed in the form of the death drive within living beings: life as something that stores potential energy, this energy manifesting as a tension, otherwise thought of as desire, and my deep wish for desire to end altogether. The despair of the ”self that wants to get rid of oneself”. I tend to think that the image of disintegration is a fantasy, that is however ultimately helpful. And to clarify: Fantasy is not the same as an illusion. Fantasy is not the antithesis of truth. Fantasy is not naive or evil. I can even think of Death itself as a fantasy invoked by life, that helps it, that sustains it, that prevents it from succumbing to melancholia brought by a realization of infinity.

Mathematics may very well be the ultimate mask of God, but how I take it in, is most important. One thing that is super useful with geometry - and this I can apply to any geometric rendition, for example the Hieroglyphic key or Tree(s) of life - is that because of its neutrality it usually holds within it different entry points for different people. The allure of, for example, trinities or quaternities lies in their openness of interpretation, allowing for different emphases. Three persons may approach existence with widely different ideas and may yet still all be humbled by a triangle.
Nebenkheperu wrote: Fri Feb 24, 2023 3:09 am a symbol can sometimes (even usually) refer to an archetype of the collective (un)conscious - seemingly often to an individual's preferences thereof, "only"
Smaragd wrote: Wed Feb 22, 2023 1:25 pm This topic gives really nice perspective on how symbols base on archetypes, and on the nature of archetypes themselves.
I think I do equate archetypes with symbols on some level, but a question rises whether there is something to be gained by using one or the other. I seem to use them depending on the context, using archetype when I want to emphasize their organic, living qualities and symbol with inorganic, fixed qualities. How do people here separate/unify these concepts or ideas?
Kenazis wrote: Wed Feb 22, 2023 11:57 am Symbols are also concentrations points of energies, their conductors and messengers.
Something I do with the symbols, is to use them to manipulate reality, or to guide flows of energies. The more private examples are the ways I fold my hands in prayer, or the symbols that are present on the altar, but symbols also saturate my reality in a more casual sense: Those gesticulations I use in everyday rhethoric, or the ways I formulate my text in this forum. I have a hunch that people here strive not to keep the sacred and the mundane separate, so the question I am interested is that how do you use symbols in your everyday life and why?
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Re: What is a symbol?

Post by Smaragd »

Aperiemus wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 9:05 am As a counterpoint (not an objection), I want to share a personal experience: Magico-mathematical workings such as numerology or sacred geometry do not vibe well with temperaments such as myself, for there are examples of people slowly consumed by their perpetual motion machines and squarings of circle.
I somewhat agree with this notion with my own temperament. For numerology and mathematics to work properly in occult contexts I feel like they need to be rooted in to some sort of flesh - a body of mythology and symbolical structures, the more ancient and thus "organic" the better. Regarding the allusive expression "organic", I'd like to add an example of narrower time span: Tolkien nurtured his mythology with care, refining things with intuition and reason for decades vs. a cheap series of fantasy fiction, perhaps written rather fast on the basis of what is generally considered a "fantasy book". Speed really isn't a factor here, rather the care the relation of things are considered, and ancient mythologies and fairytales have lived through many oral transmissions, and thus what remains is a rather pure geometry behind the details of the symbol.
Aperiemus wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 9:05 am I think I do equate archetypes with symbols on some level, but a question rises whether there is something to be gained by using one or the other. I seem to use them depending on the context, using archetype when I want to emphasize their organic, living qualities and symbol with inorganic, fixed qualities. How do people here separate/unify these concepts or ideas?
The way I saw them when writing my previous message here is that the archetypes are invisible entities who nevertheless are behind the first forms and basic geomterical shapes. For the geometry of a circle to exist, there needes to be an archetype behind it, and to ask "how could not the geometry of a circle exist?" leads us towards how fundamental the basic geometry really is to all nature, and how much more they are than the figures we draw of them. Symbols I gather are these figures pointing to the archetypes. Archetypes and symbols unify in the sense that the latter is born from the former.
Aperiemus wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 9:05 am I have a hunch that people here strive not to keep the sacred and the mundane separate, so the question I am interested is that how do you use symbols in your everyday life and why?
I can relate to your example of folding hands in a prayer. To continue from here by the example of the Rosary of Azazel, I feel like there needs to be real understanding of the words I use there for it to work and remain meaningful. Symbols are of great help here. During the mantra part I need to connect the words to some mental images whether they are symbolical structures based on visions outside the body, or symbolical structres of the body's energetical centers. This helps the mind to properly use the magical potentialities we as individuals have, and direct it according to another set of symbols, pertaining here to the Triple Key of Power, which is woven in to different parts of the formula of the Rosary. To conclude, the symbols can be used like stars in the sky, each directing the mind to energetically go through certain patterns the different symbols make up as one whole. Each symbol opening a gate for the archetype to emerge and for the human beings to reach towards it, while a constellation of symbols challenges the mind to find relation of the things behind those doors and how to use their powers well.

Often times when praying, I feel like some symbolical mental image doesn't quite work or fit the context and then I have to alter it. When I sound the name Lucifer, does my mind and heart reach the brightest and lofties side of this entity, perhaps touching my experiences of manas, or do I have some rather muddy anthropomorphic figure in my mind? Which one fits the context of the present work? These intricacies are fascinating and constitutes alot of the symbolical side of my work during ceremonial magic.
"Would to God that all the Lord's people were Prophets”, Numbers 11:29 as echoed by William Blake
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Aperiemus
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Re: What is a symbol?

Post by Aperiemus »

Smaragd wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 2:55 pm The way I saw them when writing my previous message here is that the archetypes are invisible entities who nevertheless are behind the first forms and basic geomterical shapes. For the geometry of a circle to exist, there needes to be an archetype behind it, and to ask "how could not the geometry of a circle exist?" leads us towards how fundamental the basic geometry really is to all nature, and how much more they are than the figures we draw of them.
That is a powerful thought, and I would say, something that is, in a positive sense, truly rebellious in relation to the commonplace notions of mathematics - that there is even something beyond it, that is alive, that has directedness or intentionality or such qualities. The notion of a law, natural or otherwise, is then something that not just exists (being), but is in continual change (becoming), propelled by will, Will, True Will, or "the will of God", to put it in occidental terms. It looks as if we state a limit to where apophatic thinking of God can take us, that is, there is something that can be said of the will of God that is not only said through negation. I mean that when I start to pull qualities out of the archetype, in the end there has to be something that is left that can't be abstracted. And in the light of ascension it is essential to consider, what it is that is left. Will? Love? Intellect? All of the above?
Smaragd wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 2:55 pm Speed really isn't a factor here, rather the care the relation of things are considered, and ancient mythologies and fairytales have lived through many oral transmissions, and thus what remains is a rather pure geometry behind the details of the symbol.
We could split hairs here of what is that essence behind that has survived and how to know, when I have found it, but that's beside the point. The reason I bring this up, is that for some (me, again :D) there is that someone in the back of the head in the form of "Fox Mulder running after the truth that's out there", or the Joker in the Dark Knight film "chasing cars like a dog, but not knowing what to do if he caught one". That impulse to chase certainty or to chase for the sake of chase. What I consider to be more on point is:

The care is something that brings us close to the idea of devotion or worship. What I mean by this, when speaking of magico-mathematical workings, the point is to respect the numbers and geometry in themselves (in the light of the previous notion of intentionality or directedness or will), even keep a proper distance, rather than only concentrating on their capability to ”blow my mind yet again” when an equation is solved in front of my eyes - not to cut it off altogether, but rather, integrate this mindblowingness to the worship or vice versa. Same principle could be applied to almost any magical or artistic work. The symbol of the unification of hands comes to mind, when two are brought together as one. I however know that my understanding of the unification of hands through the lens of the worship is an emphasis of mine - maybe there is another way to look at this?
Aperiemus wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 9:05 am I have a hunch that people here strive not to keep the sacred and the mundane separate, so the question I am interested is that how do you use symbols in your everyday life and why?
This question could also be elaborated in another direction: If there are people who have tattoos or wear jewelry, that they attach symbolical meaning, or that they use as magical tools (for grounding or other purposes), they could bring some fresh perspectives on this. I remember that in Fosforos or some other text by Nefastos there was a mention of a magical silver ring with a red stone, if my memory serves me right.
Smaragd wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 2:55 pm When I sound the name Lucifer, does my mind and heart reach the brightest and lofties side of this entity, perhaps touching my experiences of manas, or do I have some rather muddy anthropomorphic figure in my mind? Which one fits the context of the present work?
On a side note: Last night I actually thought of a possibility of a new discussion that would be something like ”Luciferianism and emotional insecurity”. I need to ruminate the idea a bit and do a some introspection, but I think that it could be spiritually beneficial to consider if our images of the shining one cast shadows we aren’t necessarily aware of. Something um.. the self-image, the eroticism of the form.. um.. a tear in the Lucifers eye.. um.. Alexandre Cabanel’s painting and the Lucifer of Liège..
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Re: What is a symbol?

Post by Smaragd »

Aperiemus wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 10:09 am On a side note: Last night I actually thought of a possibility of a new discussion that would be something like ”Luciferianism and emotional insecurity”.
I briefly scrabed similar thoughts just recently. Eager to join that discussion.
"Would to God that all the Lord's people were Prophets”, Numbers 11:29 as echoed by William Blake
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Re: What is a symbol?

Post by Smaragd »

Aperiemus wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 10:09 am That is a powerful thought, and I would say, something that is, in a positive sense, truly rebellious in relation to the commonplace notions of mathematics - that there is even something beyond it, that is alive, that has directedness or intentionality or such qualities.--

The care is something that brings us close to the idea of devotion or worship. What I mean by this, when speaking of magico-mathematical workings, the point is to respect the numbers and geometry in themselves (in the light of the previous notion of intentionality or directedness or will), even keep a proper distance, rather than only concentrating on their capability to ”blow my mind yet again” when an equation is solved in front of my eyes - not to cut it off altogether, but rather, integrate this mindblowingness to the worship or vice versa.
To take another perspective to this, the many times we have attempted to discuss music theory or the astrological clockwork of our solar system in this forum, we often times get stuck in to the mechanical things and they remain only quasi-mystical if capable holding mystical waters at all. But ofcourse it is all fine to try and discuss these things. Better to bump on dead ends than to remain silent and unaware of them. It just easily feels like a touch of poetry or elaborately poetic interpretation is often missing to get to the esotericism of those things. This could be a temperamental things, but to me it often feels like things should be lying on a bed of poetry, while mechanics and mathemathics can be little supportive pieces in the composition for the whole to remain vital. Such vitality seems to be positioned between the simplicity of a living archetype and its symbol. Mathemathics and geometry are sort of a measuring science which is not much at all without the things they measure or model. For this reason when I see the figure 0, I usually think of it first as a symbol uttering secrets of the depths before I see it as a numerical unit.
"Would to God that all the Lord's people were Prophets”, Numbers 11:29 as echoed by William Blake
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