Poimandres (Corpus Hermeticum)

Discussion on literature other than by the Star of Azazel.
Locked
User avatar
Beshiira
Posts: 137
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 11:07 am

Re: Poimandres (Corpus Hermeticum)

Post by Beshiira »

Smaragd wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 8:57 pm Hermes as Shakti on the other hand is a thrilling idea
In fact, for some time I have tended to see all the seven principles as Shakti, in a way; all being different ways of the Great Mother to manifest herself. And of course, ultimately manifesting God (or Shiva in this context). I use this in my Rosary practice as well; one bead is dedicated to how the days ruler can be seen as a form of the Goddess, or to say it in another way: how God works through those principles as Shakti.

Hermes Trismegistus wrote:3. [And] I reply: I long to learn the things that are, and comprehend their nature, and know God. This is, I said, what I desire to hear.

He answered back to me: Hold in thy mind all thou wouldst know, and I will teach thee.
This brings to mind King Solomon's answer, when God said to him that he could ask for anything, and it would be given to him; and Solomon asked for ”an understanding heart” (1 Kings: 3).

”Hold in thy mind all thou wouldst know, and I will teach thee.” - meaning: don't forget this, don't stray from the path. Almost like: ”What you want is what you will get, so make sure you want the right things.” Poimandres says: ”Keep all this in mind, stay focused, and strive towards what you have seen to be most important, and it just so happens that surely I will teach you.” (Cf. John 15:7, which is also included in the Prayer to Azazel: ”If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.”)
"Ja kun minun kirkkauteni kulkee ohitse, asetan minä sinut kallion rotkoon ja peitän sinut kädelläni, kunnes olen kulkenut ohi.
Kun minä sitten siirrän pois käteni, näet sinä minun selkäpuoleni; mutta minun kasvojani ei voi kenkään katsoa."
User avatar
Smaragd
Posts: 1120
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2014 4:27 am

Re: Poimandres (Corpus Hermeticum)

Post by Smaragd »

Beshiira wrote: Mon Jan 31, 2022 4:59 pm
Smaragd wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 8:57 pm Hermes as Shakti on the other hand is a thrilling idea
In fact, for some time I have tended to see all the seven principles as Shakti, in a way; all being different ways of the Great Mother to manifest herself. And of course, ultimately manifesting God (or Shiva in this context). I use this in my Rosary practice as well; one bead is dedicated to how the days ruler can be seen as a form of the Goddess, or to say it in another way: how God works through those principles as Shakti.
I guess one of the reasons this opened a truly curious gate for me is that Shakti as a term managed to reach some meaning other than abstract sense of 'manifestation' or 'power'. It is those abstractions also, foremost even, yet the specificity of the female nature of Shakti created with one of the seven sons a vision where these more subtle symbolical polarities were not mere cold data of abstract qualities, but something that created a spark in connection to each other and revealed an intricate world the intuition could catch on to be observed and studied by the formal intellect of kama manas. Almost like an image burned on a film, having metaphysical laws written to it in metaphorical language.

Hermes Trismegistus wrote:3. [And] I reply: I long to learn the things that are, and comprehend their nature, and know God. This is, I said, what I desire to hear.
In this first part, the student seemed to specify wanting to learn both the Shakti - all the manifested and laws of manifestation - and the Shiva - the whole to which all the specifics of Shakti must relate. If the knowledge of the laws of manifestation were not in relation to the whole, the knowledge would not be worthy. It would be trivia of some degree, which is doomed to be part of a power play as the knowledge grants power by the inherent authority.
Hermes Trismegistus wrote:He answered back to me: Hold in thy mind all thou wouldst know, and I will teach thee.
This relates to the first part and defines a requirement for the student of the occult: all knowledge must accumulate and find their proper relation to the whole. One must remember all the old knowledge while being open to the new. Building knowledge and receiving teachings in this way avoids the trappings of duality, reactive conduct, and jumping from one ideological end to the other etc. Poimandres is thus defining the requirements that will reveal the occult world from behind the trappings of duality. This, I claim, is also the Hermetic Seal, first time referred to in this text, which seals the lid on the devotee in a way that no pressure is to leak to dualistic venting or power play, all the world and all the knowledge is in one carrier (microcosmos is aknowledged), thus allowing the pressure transform the devotee in the mysteries.
"Would to God that all the Lord's people were Prophets”, Numbers 11:29 as echoed by William Blake
User avatar
Beshiira
Posts: 137
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 11:07 am

Re: Poimandres (Corpus Hermeticum)

Post by Beshiira »

Hermes Trismegistus wrote:4. E'en with these words His aspect changed, and straightway, in the twinkling of an eye, all things were opened to me, and I see a Vision limitless, all things turned into Light - sweet, joyous [Light]. And I became transported as I gazed.

But in a little while Darkness came settling down on part [of it], awesome and gloomy, coiling in sinuous folds, so that methought it like unto a snake.

And then the Darkness changed into some sort of a Moist Nature, tossed about beyond all power of words, belching out smoke as from a fire, and groaning forth a wailing sound that beggars all description.

[And] after that an outcry inarticulate came forth from it, as though it were a Voice of Fire.

I associate the first part to the general ”instantaneousness” of spiritual realization and attainment; at least sometimes we can have an experience as if a veil in front of our eyes was very suddenly removed. All sorts of processes can be built up to that point, but the actual ”awakening” can be very sudden (in bigger as well as smaller things; and we can relate to this even without any spiritual belief). From the Azazelian perspective this relates also to electricity, as we can see from the symbol of lightning and how it relates to Satan (”I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven”, Luke 10:18). I find it intriguing that in electricity, voltage is basically tension between two differing potentials, and the discharge happens in an instant; like in the lightning phenomenon the current "comes and goes" very fast.

First the disciple here sees a light-filled, joyous vision. Then all is dark and gloomy. Finally he sees a chaotic ”moist nature”. Off the top of my head I can't go to very detailed metaphysics about etheric or elemental correspondencies, but I think it's fair enought to say that this depiction is quite well in line with many creation myths. It also reminds me once again of Indian teachings, as well as other esoteric teachings, where we first have a pure state of bliss, then its counterpart (something else, something other) and then, in a way, we have these two together, or, something in-between, or something that comes out of these two. It is the first act of creation when something and something else come to be; before this neither one exists, in a way. Thus creation is also separation, as the first apparent duality occurs. The ”Snake” is an obvious symbol of Shakti (and kundalini) once again, and the ”sinuous folds” remind me of how in theosophy etc. the ”folds of matter” are sometimes mentioned.

From that on, creation just keeps getting more and more and more complex and detailed, ultimately leading to multitudes of living individual beings.

I interpret that the ”Moist Nature” can also be said to be the material plane of existence. Fire can be seen as the creative force behind everything, and ”a wailing sound” is very descriptive of the nightmarish side of our existence (cf. the ”life is suffering” idea of buddhism).

Now, ” an outcry inarticulate”, what is that? Some ideas: collective and/or individual need and will to rise, to evolve, to help the suffering. It is us crying for help and striving towards ascension, but it is also God crying through us, a ”Voice of Fire” (cf. ”Out of the depths have I cried unto thee, O Lord”, Psalm 130:1).
"Ja kun minun kirkkauteni kulkee ohitse, asetan minä sinut kallion rotkoon ja peitän sinut kädelläni, kunnes olen kulkenut ohi.
Kun minä sitten siirrän pois käteni, näet sinä minun selkäpuoleni; mutta minun kasvojani ei voi kenkään katsoa."
User avatar
Smaragd
Posts: 1120
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2014 4:27 am

Re: Poimandres (Corpus Hermeticum)

Post by Smaragd »

Beshiira wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2022 11:49 am the ”sinuous folds” remind me of how in theosophy etc. the ”folds of matter” are sometimes mentioned.
Thus the movement of the snake can be seen a metaphor for the aetheric and other layers, which the primordial, undifferentiated, matter conceals within. The consequent elemental forms of the Darkness are the differentiation processes happening throughout the millions of years. A cosmic process which is in correspondence giving birth (read: we gave birth to) to the elemental parts of the human constitution. Our understanding of the world through our different bodies (the watery nature of feelings, the airy nature of thought etc.) is made possible by the differentiation the primal matter which is described in the passage. This is also the struggle that granted us our corresponding outer senses. The far future shows what kinds of abilitites i.e. tools the human being is granted when/if it reaches the sixth cycle in it's development. Theosophical terminology of root races relates to this, but the term has become rather archaic in a non-romantic way (for example the mythological Atlantis has it's esoteric roots in these previous phases in human development where the elemental differentiations had not proceeded to the point where we have come now).
Hermes Trismegistus wrote:I see a Vision limitless, all things turned into Light - sweet, joyous [Light]. And I became transported as I gazed.
A Logoic vision where all the germs, or atoms, or monads of the universe is seen mirroring the Word of God.
Hermes Trismegistus wrote:
And then the Darkness changed into some sort of a Moist Nature, tossed about beyond all power of words,
Here from the primordial chaos the element of water is being differentiated. Water is a particularly chaotic element, and it is peculiarly close to the original meaning of the word which is what the Darkness represent in this text, that is 'void'. I wonder if the procession of the elements could be interpreted going from the lowest to the highest as the most coarse matter, the one we see with our outer sight, and particularly the Earth portion of it could be seen to mark the void as an empty vessel. At least it has been said that "the physical body is the oldest body we have". But we can also consider what the physical body means in this sentence as the coarse elements have their higher, aetheric correspondences, that are also seen as physical though finer quality, where Earth corresponds to something that could be vaquely pointed to be the matrix of the Mother. Here the Mother's common alias 'the Darkness' is ofcourse noteworthy.
Hermes Trismegistus wrote:
belching out smoke as from a fire, and groaning forth a wailing sound that beggars all description.
We can see from our point of view how the fire and water as coarse elements are opposites and almost unable to exist in close contact with each other. Now imagine the wailing as the elements have been worked through to differentiate from each other. A hellish vision runs over, the water tries to turn in to fire and smoke arises as tens of thousands of nations agonize, monstly unconscious of what they are giving birth to.
Hermes Trismegistus wrote:
[And] after that an outcry inarticulate came forth from it, as though it were a Voice of Fire.
I am not sure if this stage of the differentiation is that of hinting of the dawn, the birth of Fire has brought with it (the physio-chemical flame being only a mirage of what could be expressed as 'a Voice of Fire'), or if the voice pertains to the birth of Air from Fire.

The sequence where the Water comes before Fire reminds me also of the idea of âtma as a veil of the auric egg (cf. Dimensions of the Demons' Cube). Âtma-prana here relating to the Will and creativity the Fire element holds, as fra Beshiira pointed. The fire-water is dripping from the âtma-prana egg, which could be interpreted as being brooded by the serpentine Darkness, behind all the hellish undertakings we see on the surface of the vision. And while this same conglomeration of water-fire still exist within us, "dripping from cavity of the skull" if the Blavatskian expression may be used here, the differentiation of the elements has created in the human correspondence the lower tools of the lower triad and the outer senses.
"Would to God that all the Lord's people were Prophets”, Numbers 11:29 as echoed by William Blake
User avatar
Beshiira
Posts: 137
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 11:07 am

Re: Poimandres (Corpus Hermeticum)

Post by Beshiira »

Hermes Trismegistus wrote:5. [Thereon] out of the Light [...] a Holy Word (Logos) descended on that Nature. And upwards to the height from the Moist Nature leaped forth pure Fire; light was it, swift and active too.

The Air, too, being light, followed after the Fire; from out of the Earth-and-Water rising up to Fire so that it seemed to hang therefrom.

But Earth-and-Water stayed so mingled with each other, that Earth from Water no one could discern. Yet were they moved to hear by reason of the Spirit-Word (Logos) pervading them.

First we have here the familiar idea of something descending from heaven/light/God to earth, to help, so to say (cf. ”And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us”, John 1:14; also cf. the fall of Lucifer). And then Fire rises back to the heights, and earthly beings start their ascension via this Fire.

The part where ”Air follows Fire” could surely be interpreted in many ways. I easily see the Air here as our spiritual essence (or soul etc.), that is being awakened from the materialistic state (”from out of the Earth-and-Water”) and led back to God, by Fire; inspired and vitalized by the Holy Fire.

The Earth and the Water being deeply mingled speaks of the concrete and cemented nature of matter; the ”crudest” elements are tightly together; as in a way are the more subtler two as well, the Air and the Fire. The latter two are not so fundamentally tightly together, which I interpret to mean that they are essentially together in Spirit, that is: together as one but still on their own, in their right place, so to say; whereas Earth and Water in this depiction are more just ”one chunk of matter”. ”Yet were they moved to hear by reason of the Spirit-Word (Logos) pervading them”; meaning: even the crudest forms of matter are dissolved eventually ”by the command of Spirit” – the elements shatter and find their essential place in the whole of Spirit; as everything is ultimately Spirit. (Or in other words: Spirit and Matter are ultimately one.)

This verse seems like a summary of the Great Work – descension, ascension and the realization of the totality of Spirit.
"Ja kun minun kirkkauteni kulkee ohitse, asetan minä sinut kallion rotkoon ja peitän sinut kädelläni, kunnes olen kulkenut ohi.
Kun minä sitten siirrän pois käteni, näet sinä minun selkäpuoleni; mutta minun kasvojani ei voi kenkään katsoa."
User avatar
Smaragd
Posts: 1120
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2014 4:27 am

Re: Poimandres (Corpus Hermeticum)

Post by Smaragd »

Smaragd wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2022 8:43 pm
Hermes Trismegistus wrote:
[And] after that an outcry inarticulate came forth from it, as though it were a Voice of Fire.
I am not sure if this stage of the differentiation is that of hinting of the dawn, the birth of Fire has brought with it (the physio-chemical flame being only a mirage of what could be expressed as 'a Voice of Fire'), or if the voice pertains to the birth of Air from Fire.
It seems this was only the birth pains hinting of the differentiation of the elements, as today's verse shows. As fra Beshiira likened it generally to the suffering that belongs to manifested life, it is similar to the stage of human development where we are yet to build a proper relationship to the guiding factor, call it the spirit, the Master or whatever. Thus we are doomed to repeat our mistakes within the undifferentiated confusion of manifestation. It is often people call such ignorance "living" as opposed to thinking too much and withdrawing to one's head, but without the differentiation of the elements we are not able to revivify the whole back to a truly alive whole, away from repetition of mistakes or entirely form bound safety measures that are bound to become too stiff morals, dogma, dead letter and things of similar nature. Solve & coagula is a necessity. Perhaps some Tantric schools would see the separation of the elements as giving birth to the virile hero.

Related to this I wonder if people understand that something that is often though as a lack of intelligence is not a lack in amount but lack of good order of the tools, which is within reach by working the elements. These elemental tools are the one's belonging by correspondence to the different heavenly spheres that may be called celestial intelligences, and we as humans all have them within our microcosmic whole. The double meaning of the word 'intelligence' already hints that is is not amount which we tend to lack. It is just about finding the way to work the elements in to a balanced whole which will create better access to the tools, and align them to serve the whole rather than letting a tool to become the master. Aligning the elements under a whole could be seen as bringing the fifth point to the equation, the search for the perfect elemental square turns in to finding the perfectly angeled pentacle - a more dynamic form, those thirsty for life surely were after, although probably falling for it's primitive form as the ideal form asks for great pains an striving rather than reactive conduct.

In laymen terms, ignorance, whether it is based on distractions or fears to be seen as or becoming "a square" (too withdrawn to once head to act dynamicly enough in the phenomenal objective world) is an obstacle that need to be overcome. The square has to be worked at some point and then trained to dynamicly act in the world. This is what prepares the tools of the Magician and creates the connection to the guiding factor which will give the impulse of working in the world with the Master. If the connection fails, the square is not in balance which could be seen in different symptoms of slavery to rationalism (denial of mysticism, hunger for trivia, misdirection of rational capabilities etc.), slavery to feelings (astral intoxication, recklessly impulsive behaviour, ignoring or blindly serving one's feelings etc.), slavery to form (identities, habits, forms of work and possibilities set in stone etc.) and slavery to power (thirst for power, fear of power, pathological relation to authority, ignorance towards responsibilities etc.).

This went on a bit of a tangent but if one would struggle grasping what the abstract idea of the stirring elements in the text could mean in practice for a human being, the above could be taken as an example.
Beshiira wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 2:32 pm First we have here the familiar idea of something descending from heaven/light/God to earth, to help, so to say (cf. ”And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us”, John 1:14; also cf. the fall of Lucifer). And then Fire rises back to the heights, and earthly beings start their ascension via this Fire.
To continue biblical correlations, the sword that is brought by Christ is a fitting addition to the more mystical sights of help over the Earth we have gone through in our reading.
Matthew 10 wrote:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household
It is interesting that the tantric agents within the household are here six of number. They are sort of locked in to the cube of the house, which Christ is to open as the elemental cross.

While Beshiira's interpretations are agreeable. For the sake of practice and getting my own grip on these matters, I will attempt going through some of the verse directly by myself.
Hermes Trismegistus wrote:5. [Thereon] out of the Light [...] a Holy Word (Logos) descended on that Nature. And upwards to the height from the Moist Nature leaped forth pure Fire; light was it, swift and active too.
As the Logos (Spirit) descended to guide the separatio, the Fire is freed from the vailing state where it was locked in to it's opposite yet manifested on some level, smoking and barely alive (on the level of aching potential). As it has been purified and the spirits of Fire placed in good order within oneself, it acts like a fine blade in one's hand. It is active, meaning the Master is able to guide the student now more directly through Fire as the portion in the human constitution has been prepared well enough. For example, no priestly mediums in between is needed regarding the spirits of Fire.

Hermes Trismegistus wrote:The Air, too, being light, followed after the Fire; from out of the Earth-and-Water rising up to Fire so that it seemed to hang therefrom.
The first separtion from the conglomerate of the elements mirrors the primal division of light and darkness in to the elemental sphere. The Fire that was woken up by the Light of Logos is now mirroring or mimicing the light in the elemental sphere, while the heavy elements remain in the role of darkness. Thus we have the well known division of Spirit and Matter, which means at least the vertical axis of the elemental cross is now open. The mentioned area of mimicing is also well known to Satanists and workers of goetic magic. The spirits of goetia can be seen mimicing the angelic hierarchies. Sometimes this is seen speaking of the devilish and blasphemous humour of these spirits, but one may contemplate if it is yet another representation of the laws of nature rather than blaspheming against the laws. Yet perhaps the humour and blasphemy projected there is telling of something regarding the elemental powers and/or the one's who have projected such views there?
"Would to God that all the Lord's people were Prophets”, Numbers 11:29 as echoed by William Blake
User avatar
Beshiira
Posts: 137
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 11:07 am

Re: Poimandres (Corpus Hermeticum)

Post by Beshiira »

Hermes Trismegistus wrote:6. Then saith to me Man-Shepherd: Didst understand this Vision what it means?

Nay; that shall I know, said I.

That Light, He said, am I, thy God, Mind, prior to Moist Nature which appeared from Darkness; the Light-Word (Logos) [that appeared] from Mind is Son of God.

What then? - say I.

Know that what sees in thee and hears is the Lord's Word (Logos); but Mind is Father-God. Not separate are they the one from other; just in their union [rather] is it Life consists.

Thanks be to Thee, I said.

So, understand the Light [He answered], and make friends with it.

Now Poimandres declares that he is God, or more precisely: thy God. Again, it's not the ”Absolute speaking”, but it could be said that God speaks through Poimandres, and He speaks to a specific being; here Hermes, who could be seen as the human being in general. Poimandres presents God in a way that is still reachable to humans. God is likened to the cosmic Mind, which is again a common esoteric idea. The ”Light-Word” which comes from the Mind (or ”Light”) is then even closer to human comprehension and experience, or rather: it is the human comprehension and experience.

”Know that what sees in thee and hears is the Lord's Word (Logos); but Mind is Father-God.” Here I see the classic ”As above, so below” - the mechanics and constitution of nature also function in similar ways in the human microcosm. This sentence, together with the following one, also once again reminds me of tantric teachings.

From Arthur Avalon's ”The Serpent Power”:
And so the Tântrik Sâdhaka (tantric practitioner), when eating or drinking, or fulfilling any other of the natural functions of the body, does so, saying and believing Shivoham (”I am Shiva”), Bhairavoham (”I am Bhairava”). Sâ-aham (”I am She”). It is not merely the separate individual who thus acts and enjoys. It is Shiva who does so in and through him.
&
The body is Shakti. Its needs are Shakti's needs; when man enjoys, it is Shakti who enjoys through him. In all he sees and does it is the Mother who looks and acts. His eyes and hands are Hers. The whole body and all its functions are Her manifestation.

It might seem confusing that it's first Shiva and then Shakti who seems to act within man, but then again, as the sixth verse of ”Poimandres” says: ”Not separate are they the one from other; just in their union [rather] is it Life consists.” So the ”Light-Word” would be the equivalent of Shakti in this representation, and Shiva would then be the static Mind behind all, or the Light as it is called here.

In this verse now for the first time the word ”Life” is used in relation to the Light, and also to Spirit. This Life & Death division will be a recurring theme later in the text.

”So, understand the Light [He answered], and make friends with it.” This feels like another way to again stress the advice: ”Seek first the kingdom of God”. ”Understand that this Light is beneath and within everything; you are that Light. You are the child of God, and your mind is God's Mind. Don't liken yourself to your persona, but rather try to identify and 'make friends' with your inner Light; and so you will reach gnosis and grow.”
"Ja kun minun kirkkauteni kulkee ohitse, asetan minä sinut kallion rotkoon ja peitän sinut kädelläni, kunnes olen kulkenut ohi.
Kun minä sitten siirrän pois käteni, näet sinä minun selkäpuoleni; mutta minun kasvojani ei voi kenkään katsoa."
User avatar
Smaragd
Posts: 1120
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2014 4:27 am

Re: Poimandres (Corpus Hermeticum)

Post by Smaragd »

Hermes Trismegistus wrote:”I am the light you saw, mind, your god,” he said, ”who existed before the watery nature that appeared out of darkness. The lightgiving word who comes from mind is the son of god.”

The metaphysical qualities of god and the son of god seems to be the main theme in this verse. The masculine god (”god the father” as it is later called) is seen in the vision as everything become light in the infinitude – the monadic nature of every atom and being revealed glowing the light of their core. This field of light is also the heavenly spheres – the angelic hierarchies – where everything is in order, and what is seen ”clear and joyful” in the 4th verse of this text. Thus we might interpret from here that the metaphysical background of our minds is the Lord of the Microcosm – Metatron as the shining Prince of Countenances. Poimandres as Mercurian guide of the souls seems to be in conjunction with the paternal authority of the Sun, the guides of which are divinely hierarchical in their nature (Poimandres - Man-Shepherd). Here we must abandon all earthly and cultural perspectives and antipathies towards hierarchies and understand the metaphysical core of the objective dimension it signifies. The background of our individual minds have the same angelic beings (or gods) construing it, although our individual emphases give different gods different emphases*, which creates endless variety of individuals with more or less imbalances and unclarity against the perfectly balanced objective state of the hierachy behind all formal constructions within the mind.

* These are defined by the laws of karma, and here it is revealed why karma is not a punishment system per se but a system of consequences: focus on things with different depths and you are reprogramming yourself for good or bad, for more or less clarity towards the whole of reality.

Although I think the celestial hierarchies are also metaphysically connected to each other through the matrix of the goddess, and thus the masculine emphasis of the Sun is sometimes questioned, the masculine side of the god is here emphasised to point to the orderly divinity in the background who guides through it’s pure objectivity, which is in other sources called as ’the voice of silence.’ The goddess emphasis would point to the connections between the hierarchies (the Black Goddess) and how the orders align to create the karmic labyrinths of manifestation (the Red Goddess), which is guidance happening on another level.

This is at the core of the Star of Azazel’s idea of uniting the hands. It is accepting guidance from the Goddess as well as the God, thus allowing the process of Hieros Gamos go further than it would by seeking guidance only through the feminine or masculine variations in and out the manifested worlds.

Hermes Trismegistus wrote:”This is what you must know: that in you which sees and hears is the word of the lord, but your mind is god the father; they are not divided from one another for their union is life.”

The son of god could be seen having the same inherent nucleus as the father, yet having different roles and set of tools defined by the limits of creation, making the son capable of observing that which the hidden father conceals and passing it on to the manifested world. Uttering the Logos is not to my understanding quite seen a proper stage of manifestation, for Logos is kind of a preparatory limitation from the absolute for creation to be possible. The hearing and seeing foremostly means the primal powers behind the outer senses of hearing and seeing. These eyes are the eyes of the Watcher – the higher self, the son of god, Christ-Azazel –, and the ears the one’s capable of hearing the voice of silence.


Hermes Trismegistus wrote:”Understand the light, then, and recognize it.”

A thousand times less elegant way to repeat this within the context of my interpretation would be: ”See the background of your mind, and let the inherent silence past the noise of your imbalances.” This is a guide to makes a connection to the inner powers, the siddhis of the sight and hearing of the Watcher is made reachable.

Beshiira wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 3:08 pm Now Poimandres declares that he is God, or more precisely: thy God. Again, it's not the ”Absolute speaking”, but it could be said that God speaks through Poimandres, and He speaks to a specific being; here Hermes, who could be seen as the human being in general. Poimandres presents God in a way that is still reachable to humans. God is likened to the cosmic Mind, which is again a common esoteric idea. The ”Light-Word” which comes from the Mind (or ”Light”) is then even closer to human comprehension and experience, or rather: it is the human comprehension and experience.
It seems the text is kind of showing the birth of Hermes Trismegistus - the Thrice-Greatest -, the aspirant being Hermes as a human being - a creature crucified between the worlds -, and the God speaking to him guiding him to be one with himself, the master of the world of ideas, the celestial spheres, and thirdly a worker in the manifested world of elements.

It's affirming to see we are both making somewhat similar interpretations while coming to them from a bit different angles.
"Would to God that all the Lord's people were Prophets”, Numbers 11:29 as echoed by William Blake
User avatar
Beshiira
Posts: 137
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 11:07 am

Re: Poimandres (Corpus Hermeticum)

Post by Beshiira »

Hermes Trismegistus wrote:7. And speaking thus He gazed for long into my eyes, so that I trembled at the look of him.

But when He raised His head, I see in Mind the Light, [but] now in Powers no man could number, and Cosmos grown beyond all bounds, and that the Fire was compassed round about by a most mighty Power, and [now] subdued had come unto a stand.

And when I saw these things I understood by reason of Man-Shepherd's Word (Logos).

”...so that I trembled at the look of him”. The topic of last months Lucifer Lodge meeting was ”Fear of God & Satan”, and this part reminded me of the many things we discussed there. A lot came up related to Rudolf Otto's concept of the numinous, and how such experience or understaning is described as ”mysterium tremendum et fascinans” - a mystery awe-inspiring, terrifying and fascinating. When we ”look straight into the eyes” of something tremendously larger or deeper than ourselves, something that challenges and changes our whole conception of reality, it can definitely also be a terrifying experience. Or if it's not sheer horror, at least in some ways it makes us ”tremble”. Such positive interpretations of the ”fear of God” thus relate to respect and the right kind of humility; not that we should be ”humble and meek” like some creature who's been forced down to crawl in the mud, but it's possible and desirable to be humble in a straight-backed manner. Pride and humbleness together make a powerful tool.

When He (Poimandres, ”God”) then ”raises His head”, we realize that we only saw a fraction of His entirety before. God or the reality of Spirit is so much more, so much larger, so different, with so many new dimensions, that it absolutely transcends our former comprehension. Also, what at an earlier stage seemed to be terrifying, now is just seen as new kind of vastness. With Azazelian terms we could speak of the Dark and Bright Face of Satan. (As what I have written about Shakti in the previous posts, could have also been said about Satan. Because, as I believe, Satan is how we as human beings ultimately connect with God, so to say.)

”...and that the Fire was compassed round about by a most mighty Power, and [now] subdued had come unto a stand.” This, I feel, is once again a depiction of something formless (from the human perspective at least) becoming something that has a form. And again, only something that is at the same time formless and with form, can be wholesome, absolute, divine. (Cf. Poimandres verse 6: ”Not separate are they the one from other; just in their union [rather] is it Life consists”. Also cf. the union of Shiva & Shakti, God & Satan etc.)

”And when I saw these things I understood by reason of Man-Shepherd's Word (Logos).” In the Finnish translation it's said literally: ”these were my thoughts”, which nicely also stresses the oneness of Hermes and Poimandres in this text. The oneness in spirit of the disciple and the teacher, and also how Poimandres can be seen as an inner master. Understanding happens ”by reason”, which puts emphasis on the mind instead of only ”belief” or something. In theosophical/SoA terms this stresses the manas (or why not also kâma manas) aspect of this process.
"Ja kun minun kirkkauteni kulkee ohitse, asetan minä sinut kallion rotkoon ja peitän sinut kädelläni, kunnes olen kulkenut ohi.
Kun minä sitten siirrän pois käteni, näet sinä minun selkäpuoleni; mutta minun kasvojani ei voi kenkään katsoa."
User avatar
Smaragd
Posts: 1120
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2014 4:27 am

Re: Poimandres (Corpus Hermeticum)

Post by Smaragd »

Beshiira wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 3:58 pmWhen we ”look straight into the eyes” of something tremendously larger or deeper than ourselves, something that challenges and changes our whole conception of reality, it can definitely also be a terrifying experience. Or if it's not sheer horror, at least in some ways it makes us ”tremble”.
I tend to recognize the idea of a divine seed in such moments of mysterium tremendum et fascninans. Looking in to the depths of eyes of something one for some reasons recognizes as a form of god is recognizing this divine seed in oneself. Such moments are often starting points to the search. The recognition of the divine is the seed of realizing the master within, yet there's still infinite ways to fail in nurturing the seed. It is important to seek the way to yield the good fruit.
But when he raised his head, I saw in my mind the light of powers beyond number and boundless cosmos that had come to be. The fire, encompassed by great power and subdued, kept its place fixed. In the vision I had because of the discourse of Poimandres, these were my thoughts.
I added the Copenhaver translation here again to offer a point of comparison. The first sentence might be referencing to the one before in a way that the vision of "the light of powers beyond number and boundless cosmos" is the the powers of the Logoic seed which were awakened in him by the gaze of god, the Shakti of the Son.

The fire encompassed by great power seems like a vision of shakti which has ceased the flame of the Man from running blindly after lesser powers, portions of shakti, will-'o-wisp's and the likes, the man coming to stand one's ground in seeking the Spirit. This can be done by recognizing shakti as a whole, allowing the lesser powers to find their place from the whole. This will gather all the powers around the fire in to a balanced whole, wherefrom the visions of unboundless cosmos come. Pertaining to the forementioned trembling, all this belong to the recognition of the Logos, Son of God, and the corresponding Master within.

The last sentence is a bit weirdly translated and I wonder if it is wrongly separated from the previous sentence. In the Mead translation it seems to gather the verse neatly under the understanding and planting the seed of Logos within oneself. If I would remove the punctuation mark between the last two sentences in the Copenhaver translation, it seems the meaning points to how the fire became fixed (the man became to recognize one's whole self, recognizing one's foundations, rather than running from one end to another) because of the discourse of Poimandres, thus something reached the man, perhaps because he had prepared oneself to the point it was possible. In traditional religions people seem to be trained to prepare themselves, while in the corners of Earth where proper traditions are lacking, people can be seen sometimes prepared themselves and then forming in to groups, lodges etc. But ofcourse the preparing for the next stage of the ever opening mystery continues forth from there.

Beshiira wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 3:58 pm When He (Poimandres, ”God”) then ”raises His head”, we realize that we only saw a fraction of His entirety before. God or the reality of Spirit is so much more, so much larger, so different, with so many new dimensions, that it absolutely transcends our former comprehension. Also, what at an earlier stage seemed to be terrifying, now is just seen as new kind of vastness. With Azazelian terms we could speak of the Dark and Bright Face of Satan.
Hear hear! When one looks at the world and the first conscious steps of occultism, there is terrible amounts of fear that will set the students in trials that will prevent to see the vastness if the shadows closing in is not properly looked through. And the following is one of the most important things in this work (seeking manas to nurture the belief, the mystery, while finding the practical and actual way to the answers by the "shakti" of manas i.e. kama manas:
Beshiira wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 3:58 pm Understanding happens ”by reason”, which puts emphasis on the mind instead of only ”belief” or something. In theosophical/SoA terms this stresses the manas (or why not also kâma manas) aspect of this process.
"Would to God that all the Lord's people were Prophets”, Numbers 11:29 as echoed by William Blake
Locked