Luxury Fashion

Putting together ones life with the modern world.
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Nefastos
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Luxury Fashion

Post by Nefastos »

Most likely everyone has noticed how luxury fashion has become more and more apparent in everyday culture. For example, when I am waiting at the subway station, I hear semialcoholic teenagers talking about Gucci and Louis Vuitton casually, like those things would belong to everybody's life one way or the other.

Personally I see this as a climax of extreme shallowness and nihilistic materialism, which cannot go much further simply because one is unable to think anything shallower than this. But do you have some other ideas or approaches to this phenomenon? Does it touch your own life, directly or indirectly?
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
Kavi
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Re: Luxury Fashion

Post by Kavi »

I might take another approach to this phenomenon.
The brand names and their products have something hidden in them that makes them wanted by people.

Offering the alternative point of view to materialism that I hold on consumerism is that while buying the goods, there is a promise of something for their possible customers.
This way of looking at the phenomenon might hint that what seems to be empty and extreme materialism in unveiled form is revealed to be idealism.

It's easier to showcase the idealistic tension with artifacts that are not material objects, like certain songs that become "the Louis Vuitton for musicians".
But I find it fascinating how material objects that are necessary for living like food and clothes can be taken to such level that instead they are leveled to an abstract and symbolic level.
This is tied also to their price that somehow might not even reflect their true value and yet there is increased value added to them.

"My time was on card" like literal translation from Finnish says, so I had no time to answer the question why so many people are showing interest for high-end-, luxury-, fashion or other things. :D
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Smaragd
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Re: Luxury Fashion

Post by Smaragd »

As a child the city culture vs. rural culture was one of major opposing forces defining my life and as I was living in a rural area, city culture was the other for me in this juxtaposition. The glimpses of fashion shows by luxury brands I saw in TV seemed to be part of the silly sides of city culture where the vices of vanity and pettiness had their own mass wherefrom it spread to the unvary houses in the suburbs. I had some relatives through which I observed this and I fought against the spillover with scatological humor as proper for children and the child-like.

Anyway, as that side of the fashion circus has been so obvious to me from early on, I don’t find much fruit in hitting my head on the wall with the same ideas every time I hear about luxury fashion or a fashion show. Rather I’m happy when there might be mythological themes there and when interesting motifs jump out from their artistic expressions. I suggest that some outwardly active lodge would start a guerilla operation and write esoteric reviews of fashion shows amongst other similar things and reveal the depths of the most shallow parts of our culture. Ofcourse not only focusing on bashing the vices but in a Satanic fashion turning the table around and note how the show, or what ever it is, is indeed on a certain crucial point in the struggles of occultism, how the challenge's guiding spirit is within the expression of the art etc. :D :twisted:

To conclude, I have not disregarded the sharp notions I made as a child, but rather try to personally see the remaining vital spark in the most shallow of things and focus on such a challenge and see how the vice and it’s challenge could be bridged. If for some reason I would happen to take part of conversation with semialcoholic teenagers on Gucci, I would propably try and direct the conversation towards aesthetics and the feelings they create. Although it quite certainly would just end up in a place where the vices are laid down quite clearly by the Gucci worshippers themselves without much at all understanding of the problems there, atleast it would have been said aloud and those voiced feelings might be processed later in life.

Now that I wrote ”Gucci worshippers”, I was reminded of similar problem with music where people start to worship bands rather than the spirits they might be singing about, or trying to express. It is a similar worship of the facet as in the case of worshipping luxury fashion brands.
"Would to God that all the Lord's people were Prophets”, Numbers 11:29 as echoed by William Blake
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Cancer
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Re: Luxury Fashion

Post by Cancer »

All people have a need of signifying social status in one way or another, and there isn't anything inherently objectionable in doing this by means of fashion. Branding I agree is sinister, but not because of "nihilism" but because it creates artificial scarcity and makes clothing a way of flaunting wealth, not expressing oneself. And if we're talking about looks, smugly disdaining young people with addiction problems is not a good one.
Tiden läker inga sår.
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Astraya
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Re: Luxury Fashion

Post by Astraya »

I have very little knowledge about this area, but perhaps ( and hopefully) in some cases luxury or higher price can mean ethical ways to make things. People who make clothes or other products, aren't children or from poor countries for example, and the materials are ethical and lasting. This is guessing and hoping as I said. Some of the designers have beautiful talents to design things also.
Making luxury for some kind of personal statement or a virtue is still a very sad problem, although it could provide legal jobs and so on. This problem encourages people towards the ever growing selfishness. The mindless prices on the luxury products make the gap deeper between poor and rich people. I'm sad to hear from the people who have children, that the focus on such things, as how do people look, how much things cost and so on, are in the thoughts of the children, even younger and younger every day. And because the child mind is "normally" selfish, as the empathy developes little slower than the knowledge of ones own ego or self, it is crucial important to have more teachings about the altruism instead of the egotism, from the adults and society.
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Nefastos
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Re: Luxury Fashion

Post by Nefastos »

It is a positive surprise for me that there are so different ideas concerning this phenomenon. In that case, there seems to be much room for discussion.
Cancer wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 2:40 pmBranding I agree is sinister, but not because of "nihilism" but because it creates artificial scarcity and makes clothing a way of flaunting wealth, not expressing oneself.

By nihilism I mean that there is no actual values in the postmodern life, and since every human being is "religious" (value-oriented) by nature, the place of inner values has been replaced by outer values.

"Religious" is my personal choice for the right word here; other people can use different ones. But the idea is about everyone having need for ideals of uplifting~precious nature.

Cancer wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 2:40 pmAnd if we're talking about looks, smugly disdaining young people with addiction problems is not a good one.

My post really could be read that way, even by someone who knows me personally? No, that really wasn't what I meant. I hope that my stance will become clearer in this post.

Kavi wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 2:26 pmThe brand names and their products have something hidden in them that makes them wanted by people.

Naturally so, since for an occultist everything works in a magical way. But is this magical working of nature itself a good thing? No, it's completely neutral. But how those "hidden values" are used make brands/names/logoi in a cultural reality good or bad – or often both depending on situation: but here my stance is that the phenomenon is actually quite sinister.

Kavi wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 2:26 pmThis way of looking at the phenomenon might hint that what seems to be empty and extreme materialism in unveiled form is revealed to be idealism.

This is an important thing that I discussed a little in the end of Argarizim. Namely: materialism is not about physical things, especially in its problematic forms. Matter is not the heavy thing, but completely neutral (we could also say: illusionary, but that point is unnecessary to underline here). The really heavy and challenging this is the idea of matter, and such an idea, abstraction by itself, can become extremely problematic, when it is removed from everything spiritual and connected to love (the idea of compassionate unity).

And this is why I am so very much against fashion luxury myself. I have nothing against jewelry or bags and whichever form of matter one finds pleasing personally, but against that subtle materialism that is connected to nihilism with the above mentioned link: that projected artificial values take the place of actual values which would be able to help people. Let's consider how the cultural idea of worship has evolved or, like I would like to say, degraded. In the old times the cultural cement was religion that gave moral ideals: Hercules, Jesus, Krishna and others held values that were collectively, inherently positive.

They naturally also had some flaws and problems, but the idea itself was elevating instead of nihilistic. Also, I am not trying to make the Traditionalist argument that everything was better before. No; the modern culture is better in many regards, and getting rid of the religions of old has also good points. This one just isn't one of them.

Astraya wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 3:02 pmThis problem encourages people towards the ever growing selfishness. The mindless prices on the luxury products make the gap deeper between poor and rich people.

This is what I meant, and since the occultism is interested in the spiritual side of things (one could once again go to the obviously political direction here, but we will not do that), this challenge is about collective soul's values and ideals.

I just happened to read about the seven different meanings of gold (in Bible) from Zohar, and several different meanings of pagan treasures from a book I am helping to edit at the moment. In the old times, the times of culture of religious connectedness, treasures had symbolic functions that were not about social prestige only. Images of gold and gems can mean, and have meant, so many different things for different people. Sometimes those are only empty and vainglorious hoardings of a tyrant (and this also is a very old symbolic topos, cf. dragons' hoards, known from so many different myths), but simultaneously they symbolize spiritual things, like we know from sacred books. The apparent outer value is used as a symbol for inner value, and this can be done when the object has the traits that can be thus interpreted. For example, the Sapphire Throne of God in the Old Testament could not be the Gucci Throne, because fashion has no other traits but those projected into it by culture of advertising that seeks to twist inner values as material for outer value, instead of vice versa. I am convinced that advertising in the word's contemporary use will become illegal at some point, and after that, people will say, astonished: "It really was okay for those primitive people that needs they did not have were projected onto them all the time, using subliminal messages and repetition? That's monstrous."
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Nahumatarah
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Re: Luxury Fashion

Post by Nahumatarah »

Nefastos wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 11:19 am I am convinced that advertising in the word's contemporary use will become illegal at some point, and after that, people will say, astonished: "It really was okay for those primitive people that needs they did not have were projected onto them all the time, using subliminal messages and repetition? That's monstrous."
Do you happen to be familiar with the book No Logo by Naomi Klein? It discusses how brand names expanded beyond the mere products which bore their names, and how these names and logos began to appear everywhere. As this happened, the brands' obsession with the youth market drove them to further associate themselves with whatever the youth considered "cool". If i remember correctly the author dates the beginnings of this phenomena to the 1980's, but I think it's been around longer, and it doesn't stop with these known major brands.

It's the tendency of youth (sub)cultures to show, and seek belonging with uniform clothing, like already in the 60's there where the fashion-obsessed mods and retailers/designers who knew how to exploit them. Only today the tactics are more fierce with social media. Basically you employ a celebrity to "covertly" advertise your brand, and reap the benefits from people that seek to mimic them. As much as I would love to see advertising in its contemporary sense, like you put it, become banned I wonder how such thing could be pulled off really since advertising is contagious, and it isn't really the companies themselves that do most of the work but instead the influencers of fashion, artists, and or the peers of the youths themselves that influence what brands become and stay fashionable.

Even subcultures that were originally anti-commercial and non-conformist, like punks and goths, now have top-shelf lifestyle and clothing brands associated with them. Take Dr.Martens for example. Originally they were worn by factory workers, until musicians popular with the youth started to wear them and boom they became fashionable. When these boots debuted they cost around (converted from pounds to euro) 2-3€ a pair. These days the company’s top-shelf boot retails for over 200€ per pair.

For the filthy rich celebrities the price tag might be meaningful in communicating their success to others, but for the "common" people seeking to emulate them i don't think it really matters. It is a form of imitation magic. The fashion items are worn as an (subconscious) attempt to form a link between the celebrity (or the source of their success, their "genius factor"), and the fans who idealize their success.
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Beshiira
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Re: Luxury Fashion

Post by Beshiira »

The bigger picture here is interesting indeed; how this topic has to do with the larger cultural current related to the intensified challenge of the ”Great Ensnarer”. And our highlightedly problematic relationship with matter (and status, and all things related essentially to our focus on the world, so to say, in a very superficial way).

Also some kind of short-sightedness seems to be in action here, forms of instant gratification etc. I'm not saying these are exactly the same things, but they seem to be related. For example I'm not into luxury fashion, but I can sense the same underlying urge (”the pull” towards physical reality without the sense of spirit behind it [or whichever way this would be best verbalized...]) in other things: procrastination, wasting time on the internet, secretly worrying about my status in society, general laziness etc. etc. Such ”earth-centered” view has probably helped us in earlier stages of evolution, but maybe in this day it just brings confusion. We are obsessed with impressions, and this is surely nothing new - the snares have always been there, but it does seem that our zeitgeist is on a whole different level in this, compared to earlier times. I also wouldn't go with the traditionalist agenda in practice though, as hard as it seems to ”look forward” in the midst of these ever more surreal challenges.

Nefastos wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 11:48 am Does it touch your own life, directly or indirectly?
I often feel exhausted and helpless in the middle of this impression-bombing, advertising, celebrity and wealth worship and whatnot. Also my mind is such that I have to constantly force myself out of these traps, because a large chunk of my persona is made of this instant-gratification-loving fool. Often I fail, but luckily not all the time.
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mirabilis
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Re: Luxury Fashion

Post by mirabilis »

Nefastos wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 11:48 am Most likely everyone has noticed how luxury fashion has become more and more apparent in everyday culture. For example, when I am waiting at the subway station, I hear semialcoholic teenagers talking about Gucci and Louis Vuitton casually, like those things would belong to everybody's life one way or the other.

Personally I see this as a climax of extreme shallowness and nihilistic materialism, which cannot go much further simply because one is unable to think anything shallower than this. But do you have some other ideas or approaches to this phenomenon? Does it touch your own life, directly or indirectly?
Sounds like decadence. I like decadence.
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Nefastos
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Re: Luxury Fashion

Post by Nefastos »

Nahumatarah wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 2:50 pmDo you happen to be familiar with the book No Logo by Naomi Klein? It discusses how brand names expanded beyond the mere products which bore their names, and how these names and logos began to appear everywhere. As this happened, the brands' obsession with the youth market drove them to further associate themselves with whatever the youth considered "cool". If i remember correctly the author dates the beginnings of this phenomena to the 1980's, but I think it's been around longer, and it doesn't stop with these known major brands.

I hadn't heard about that. In terms of magic, this is use of astral spirits in order to manipulate people with vulnerabilities. We necessarily and naturally affect other people all the time, but the selfish motives with which this is done makes many modern uses of cultural communication bear infernal fruit.

Beshiira wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 3:05 pmI can sense the same underlying urge (”the pull” towards physical reality without the sense of spirit behind it [or whichever way this would be best verbalized...]) in other things: procrastination, wasting time on the internet, secretly worrying about my status in society, general laziness etc. etc. Such ”earth-centered” view has probably helped us in earlier stages of evolution, but maybe in this day it just brings confusion. We are obsessed with impressions, and this is surely nothing new

I would make the distinction between earth-centered and impression-centered here, though. Both can be forms of materialism (and therefore nihilism, for it means lack of integrating but formless spirit), but where earth-centered creates possibilities and challenges of physicality, this postmodern phenomenon of extreme astral intensification is not a physical thing. Those fashion items themselves are not important at all, the importance is in their astral presence. In occult training it is important to make distinction between –

a) materialism of all the three aspects of lower nature (physical, emotional and intellectual), and
b) good and bad (and neutral) materialism.

In this particular topic we are dealing with negative materialism of emotional astralism, guided by negative materialism of intellectual astralism. These distinctions are important to make, because otherwise we will end up fighting something that is actually an integral part of ourselves and human culture. Like monotheist mysticism has usually ended up doing, becoming more like fuel to the problem than its cure. (Strong counterreactions only feed the opposite mindset in the long run, being reactively astral in nature themselves.)

mirabilis wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 9:12 pmSounds like decadence. I like decadence.

In recent years it has helped my own agonized mindstate to understand that our human world suffers because it wants to suffer. Nowadays I see better that it is by choice.

What still pains me very much is the question why this chice has to have so extreme power over all the nature that seems to lack such a possibility of choice. Is there really that much accumulated karma of suffering in the animal kingdom, for example?
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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