Distance & Humour

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Smaragd
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Distance & Humour

Post by Smaragd »

For a serious temperament, humour might seem like a cheap trick to distance oneself from the wounded state of the lower self, i.e. escaping from the challenges presented. But after thoroughly knowing this, do you see the distance creating properties of humour useful in meaningful work of creativeness or magic?

For example I recall some grimoire (tLKoS?) being originally written as a parody, yet perhaps gaining almost authorative status, as if almost reaching some state of objectivity within the subjectively treaded/formed realms. This distance we are negatively well aware through todays meaningless over representation of irony etc. still seems like the route for filtering out the snares of subjective representation into more objective expression, does it not? As creativity might be seen flourishing as it is allowed to follow some meaningful pursuit of truth, as water follows the river bed, similarly it can be dammed by loosing the meaning of creation by too much subjective trappings waiting to be resolved before the waters can flow again.

At the same time a mindful use of distancing formulas seems like something that could be used to heal troublesome relation between the lower and higher selves. Being too unsure of oneself, being too sure of oneself, dodging the wounded state of the lower self, or dodging the responsibilities and holism the higher offers, might be worked out by finding the proper distance between the high and the low through any a creative process.
"Would to God that all the Lord's people were Prophets”, Numbers 11:29 as echoed by William Blake
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Aquila
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Re: Distance & Humour

Post by Aquila »

I think the higher form of humour is exactly the way how you can distance yourself from the daily struggles etc. - laughing at yourself as some would say. I would call it one way to self-reflect. The more petty humour distances yourself from others. Usually when you see it happen, people are only making themselves fools without noticing it. It's the lack of self-reflection, understanding and knowledge which let's some people think of themselves as above someone/something they are laughing at.

The irony you mentioned is somewhat a problem which I have noticed to have infected myself as well. It's not that big of a problem but still I have tried to overcome all the traces of it by really loving everything I could find myself making fun of. The challenge is that the words and expressions might still remain the same, and other people might interpret them as irony, sarcasm, or some equally unnecessary form of wit. Some might think it's quite a nit-picking attitude and things are really not that serious but I just want to try not to mock and hurt others. I think understanding such nuances gets more important on the path of ascension, and if one has more power and understanding.

I think humour can be beneficial in magic, especially to distance yourself from the negative potentials of astral phenomena and the horrors of "becoming a believer". With the latter one I mean situation where some people start to believe in their feelings, thoughts and opinions in ways that are getting close to fundamentalism and other dangerous forms of belief.
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Nahumatarah
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Re: Distance & Humour

Post by Nahumatarah »

Aquila wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 12:17 pm I just want to try not to mock and hurt others.
i have an aquitance who has a habit of making very hurtful jokes about groups of people like minorities, and representatives of subcultures that go against the grain of mainstream society. They always hide behind freedom of expression, but become defensive and offended if their own peculiarities are joked about. I think when it comes to art and media there's some merit in transgressive, and provocative humor as a tool to explore free speech, and inspire critical discussion about different topics, yet the darkside of this is the way jokes and humour can be used to get away with hurtful and offensive behaviour by claiming free speech. I know I have been guilty of making hurtful jokes myself in the past, but these days I try to be more careful since i don't think any cheap laughs are worth hurting someones feelings, and fail to see what good it does for freedom of expression to "punch down" on people.

This discussion reminded me of "The Buddha Smiles" by Ṭhānissaro Bhikkhu. The book talks about the often hard to detect, dry and subtle humour in the Pali canon. Personally I have always found many of the discourses in the Pali canon humorous and funny in a good way. The author argues that humour in the discourses is meant as a tool of disenchantment of certain topics like the devas, psychic powers and so on. There's also a lot of talk about humour as a way to distance oneself from attachments.
The Buddha Smiles wrote:"a sense of distance is a necessary part of the path, and a wise sense of humor can be a useful tool in promoting it. The process of separating yourself from an old attachment is easier when you can see, in a good-humored way, how foolish the attachment is."
https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/Buddh ... tents.html
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Nefastos
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Re: Distance & Humour

Post by Nefastos »

Aquila wrote:I think the higher form of humour is exactly the way how you can distance yourself from the daily struggles etc. - laughing at yourself as some would say. I would call it one way to self-reflect.

Precisely. I am about 100% certain that without a necessary ability to see humour in my life, I would have been either dead or on the downward path or both for a long time.

It belongs to the magical challenges for magical attainments (spiritual initiations) that at some points they may start to defy human logic. And when you notice in your life that the world would rather subvert its own laws of nature than to give you your hard sought prize – like in those black magic moments of Wile E. Coyote's life – you can either laugh at the absurdity or start killing. In one way or the other, one's identification with the lower self and its idea of cause and reaction have to die. It might be that some mystic experience of dissociation could manage that without humour, but I wouldn't count on that. Especially in those (quite common) cases where one would rather have such a mystic experience than learn humour, which means that there is an awful amount of false pride connected to the feeling of one's lower self. If even laugh isn't allowed, one's spiritual world is tiny indeed.

Aquila wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 12:17 pmThe more petty humour distances yourself from others.
&
Nahumatarah wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 10:31 pmi have an aquitance who has a habit of making very hurtful jokes about groups of people like minorities, and representatives of subcultures that go against the grain of mainstream society.

I feel that these things can be done adeptly or inadeptly, depending on situation. It's all about understanding the context. I make all kinds of stupid jokes about things that the modern culture considers taboos when I am among those friends who understand that it is not about the lack of love, but it is exactly that cultural taboo that makes those jokes necessary. This is the very area of the trickster Hermes: it is never possible to say for certain where those lines of humour should go, but it is their nature to be tried. Not all the time, but sometimes. It's one form of the tightrope walking, where one needs to understand balances in odd places. Making something always bad is a certain way to invite negative counterreaction in the future.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Aquila
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Re: Distance & Humour

Post by Aquila »

Nefastos wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 2:23 pm
Aquila wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 12:17 pmThe more petty humour distances yourself from others.
&
Nahumatarah wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 10:31 pmi have an aquitance who has a habit of making very hurtful jokes about groups of people like minorities, and representatives of subcultures that go against the grain of mainstream society.

I feel that these things can be done adeptly or inadeptly, depending on situation. It's all about understanding the context. I make all kinds of stupid jokes about things that the modern culture considers taboos when I am among those friends who understand that it is not about the lack of love, but it is exactly that cultural taboo that makes those jokes necessary. This is the very area of the trickster Hermes: it is never possible to say for certain where those lines of humour should go, but it is their nature to be tried. Not all the time, but sometimes. It's one form of the tightrope walking, where one needs to understand balances in odd places. Making something always bad is a certain way to invite negative counterreaction in the future.
That's right and a good thing to add here. There's no rules that work in all situations. Nuances, context and intentions define a lot of such humour. Humour is also about reading the world around us and knowing where, when and how to place your words. I guess the same applies to to all use of words. They can bind us or liberate us depending on how they are used.
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Smaragd
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Re: Distance & Humour

Post by Smaragd »

Aquila wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 12:17 pm The irony you mentioned is somewhat a problem which I have noticed to have infected myself as well. It's not that big of a problem but still I have tried to overcome all the traces of it by really loving everything I could find myself making fun of. The challenge is that the words and expressions might still remain the same, and other people might interpret them as irony, sarcasm, or some equally unnecessary form of wit.
It seems our culture, and perhaps humanity at its current struggles is not ready for the laughter that is beyond the most blunt sarcasm or perhaps irony, yet present at moments where both might be fitting or common, as such expressions are so easily misinterpreted. Perhaps there's also a learning curve to the nuances of expression. I often times laugh at things while being aware of the problem it being misinterpreted, yet struggling to find the proper tone for it to communicate what the laughter really is about. I guess there's still a hint of irony in those expressions as for me it usually comes from the absurd nature of reality and thus things are jokes of cosmic proportions, not jokes on the individuals. I guess the problem of irony, for me, is about the nihilistic tones it usually presents itself, which is always something like unwillingness to understand reality, while the irony of the cosmic joke is more like a tool of observing reality. It matters whether the distance is taken to escape or to observe.

I guess this comes close to what you said here:
Aquila wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 12:17 pmSome might think it's quite a nit-picking attitude and things are really not that serious but I just want to try not to mock and hurt others. I think understanding such nuances gets more important on the path of ascension, and if one has more power and understanding.
Aquila wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 12:17 pmI think humour can be beneficial in magic, especially to distance yourself from the negative potentials of astral phenomena and the horrors of "becoming a believer". With the latter one I mean situation where some people start to believe in their feelings, thoughts and opinions in ways that are getting close to fundamentalism and other dangerous forms of belief.
This is crucial! These are good examples of the "subjective trappings" I mentioned in the first post. While it is important to acknowledge feelings, thoughts and opinions, there must be space (ability to take distance) to really go through them and see what are the things that does not level with the objective reality and what does that say about one's beliefs, feelings and thoughts, what do these observations reveal of the base that one has been building on.
Nahumatarah wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 10:31 pm This discussion reminded me of "The Buddha Smiles" by Ṭhānissaro Bhikkhu. The author argues that humour in the discourses is meant as a tool of disenchantment of certain topics like the devas, psychic powers and so on. There's also a lot of talk about humour as a way to distance oneself from attachments.
A delightful thing to learn similar thoughts and even ways to express have been present in the buddhist circles. Disenchantment is something close to the place where I came to the topic at hand, yet I'd rather call it mortification because while there is certainly a simple meaning of disenchantment from the subjective lures, the objective reality (not ruling out the subjective realm, but including it) still remains magical and positively enchanting. Mortification might point to the revealing of the immortal core in more poetic and proactive manner, yet it can also be misinterpreted as something that tears the more holistic connections also to the precious core.

Attachment is also something that is easily misinterpreted, but perhaps might find it's real meaning through our discussion here regarding the proper distance between the objective and the subjective stances of the mind. Observing some loosely termed New Age currents of our age, the aversion of attachment seems to be largely used for various things like committing to meaningful yet challenging endeavours. Negative attachment (perhaps following the Buddhist use of the word) could be more usefully pointed in the demonic portions of the individual - the portions, habits, patterns of action, thoughts, feelings etc. that perpetually repeat themselves without a clearly reflected purpose and Willful, ethically weighted, choice for it.
Nefastos wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 2:23 pm I make all kinds of stupid jokes about things that the modern culture considers taboos when I am among those friends who understand that it is not about the lack of love, but it is exactly that cultural taboo that makes those jokes necessary. This is the very area of the trickster Hermes: it is never possible to say for certain where those lines of humour should go, but it is their nature to be tried. Not all the time, but sometimes.
The trickster Hermes is certainly the airy archetype of the distance we are talking about. It is the Psychopomp that guides the souls in mortification, it moves with the entourage of Muses, some of whom belong to the bliss of following the Truth and some try to snare the unwary to the traps where they fall as easy prey for the blood-thirsty fangs.
"Would to God that all the Lord's people were Prophets”, Numbers 11:29 as echoed by William Blake
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Nefastos
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Re: Distance & Humour

Post by Nefastos »

Speaking of distancing and humour, have you seen the new Matrix (Resurrections)? It is quite good example of our postmodern distancing, the age of snark. Things are taken to meta level, the metaphysical joke is made, but there is very little vitality amidst the disintegration thus accomplished. What can survive these kind of breakings is only something artificial, happening on political level. And thus the attempt of making something more free has actually itself been made as an attempt of manipulation. Our culture is completely confused in this paradox, and cannot see any kind of way out yet.

Joke is always a gesture of metaphysics: it breaks the framing. But where a good joke presents something new, a vital fresh perspective, a harmful joke is something that is done on the completely contrary reason, for it seems to actually strengthen some already existing consensus, by undermining fresh approach. Thus cynical irony is kind of anti-humour, although it presents itself as such.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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