Symbolism in Dreams

Symbols and allegories.
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Nefastos
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Symbolism in Dreams

Post by Nefastos »

What kind of symbolism your dreams use the most, or what kind of dream symbolism you remember the most after waking up?

There are several possible symbolic apparatuses. For example:

– Shared symbolism of some esoteric or religious (or other symbol-defining) group
– Symbols taken from some popular culture context
– Symbolism that is apparently mythical and universal
– Symbols/objects/people from one's immediate personal life

It is fascinating to see how many different psychological, physical, and perhaps even spiritual factors are joined to the process of dreaming and dream-remembering, which might be a part of dream-rendering. Not going farther to the pondering what dreams actually are, but simply taking as what they seem to be, when the interpreting brain is once again awake: a series of symbols that make up a story that follows some but not all conventions of waking world, plus their own logic of allusions.

Are there different times or states of mind when different sets of symbols take part in your dreams? What are the ways of dreaming you enjoy the most, or which seem to give the most useful information on your life's situation?
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Cancer
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Re: Symbolism in Dreams

Post by Cancer »

I managed to become more interested in my dreams after I stopped searching them for any kind of overtly occult or mythical symbolism. Or anything else that might be aesthetically pleasing in a way immediately recognizable in the waking world. When searching for this kind of meaning, my dreams nearly always come across as incredibly banal. Their meanings are either glaringly obvious (as with nightmares about various insecurities) or they don't seem to "say" much anything. Their "symbolism" is mostly lifted from pop culture things that I was obsessed with as a child (Star Wars, LotR) or some brain-rotting contemporary internet stuff. As well as people & places from personal life, of course.

This might all sound very disparaging, but nowadays I do actually find joy in occasionally e.g. writing a dream down. I find it fascinating how information-dense certain scenes or happenings in dreams can be, how much language one must use to even approximately describe a thing that was wholly and instantly comprehended in the dream. Objects and places in dreams can have endlessly deep "backstories" in a way that makes time non-linear: I might spend half a minute of dream-time looking at a photo that tells a decades-long story. The story is never explicitly played out in the dream - at least as far as I can remember - but is embedded in my dream-self as tacit knowledge or memory, so that the description of the photo I write after waking up ends up being like a dream within a dream. Sometimes there isn't any difference between such "backstories" being explicitly played out vs. only implied, and this makes dreams more like multi-directional networks of association than stories with a beginning and an end. In a word, space and time work in interesting ways when there's no boundary between the physical and the mental, between the dream-self's memories and external experiences. And for me, compared with symbol-hunting, it is much more gratifying to explore these more fundamental aspects of dream-worlds.
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Nefastos
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Re: Symbolism in Dreams

Post by Nefastos »

Cancer wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:32 pmI managed to become more interested in my dreams after I stopped searching them for any kind of overtly occult or mythical symbolism. Or anything else that might be aesthetically pleasing in a way immediately recognizable in the waking world. When searching for this kind of meaning, my dreams nearly always come across as incredibly banal. Their meanings are either glaringly obvious (as with nightmares about various insecurities) or they don't seem to "say" much anything.

In Finnish occult tradition, it is said that you can see "forest people" (spirits) only from the corner of your eye. This is the same thing. Gazing too intently nearly always destroys astral vision, because it lives in the periphery of the waking mind. There are very few exceptions, and they are usually pathological: people are in psychosis or near to it. "Gazing too intently" can also be used in a way that induces vision, which is one method of scrying. But this actually works in the same way: by overstimulating intensity it draws mind to its periphery. Such a method is hard to use with dreams, though, since the very act of dreaming relaxes that blurring effect of super intensity and leaves us with just the regular over-focusing, resulting in an overflow of blatant, useless pictures.

Cancer wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:32 pmTheir "symbolism" is mostly lifted from pop culture things that I was obsessed with as a child (Star Wars, LotR) or some brain-rotting contemporary internet stuff.

When my mind uses the symbolism structures from popular culture, it often comes back to sets which have created a certain deep impact on me in the past. They have created so important methods of feelings that they have become apparatuses by themselves. For me such deeply felt pop culture symbolisms come from Silent Hill 2 and an old computer game Eye of the Beholder 2. They connect to different symbol mechanics, but one reason my dreaming mind has chosen to use these symbolisms must be because both of them have in them a very distinct emotional, immersing, and also stressing atmosphere. It is interesting to muse whether the mind would find for it new symbolistic sets from more relaxed pop culture milieus in case it could channel more relaxed emotions.

Cancer wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:32 pmThis might all sound very disparaging, but nowadays I do actually find joy in occasionally e.g. writing a dream down. I find it fascinating how information-dense certain scenes or happenings in dreams can be, how much language one must use to even approximately describe a thing that was wholly and instantly comprehended in the dream. Objects and places in dreams can have endlessly deep "backstories" in a way that makes time non-linear

Exactly. I think it would be a very good manasic meditation to consider these endless allusions in one's dreams. The depths are almost infinite, and yet one has to learn to float or dive to the direction that is meaningful. (Or to understand that the vision is without such meaningful depth, like in the above mentioned example of the mind that intentionally seeks visions & ends up making rubbish.) Also for an occultist it is of equal interest to start to see where that fine line between personal and shared astrals go, and how. For example, from the last night I only remembered one dream, where I discussed with a person from whom I was waiting an e-mail, and I was pretty sure that that e-mail would be waiting for me after the dream (it was). The impressions of this person whom I have never met and of whom I do not know anything are therefore pristine in the dream state, and this leaves me with interesting thoughts. What does it mean that I saw him as a big man, who had inherited a very clever black dog? To what measure these things are physical, and to what measure they are symbolic? I have sometimes made the mistake of thinking that pictures seen in dreams were only symbolic, and then end up surprised that they were actually literal. But with the training of the meeting point of the intuitional and the rational mind, it becomes possible to usually make a guess one way or the other. (For example, in this case I'd guess that the "clever dog" was a symbol of some depth & multilayered meanings.)
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Insanus
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Re: Symbolism in Dreams

Post by Insanus »

I slept bad last night and when I tried to get back to sleep after waking up too early, I saw some dreams. I only see dreams when I don't sleep well, and it made me think of this model of consciousness (Kafka's? I can't remember whose idea this is) where there's three levels A, B and C. A is waking consciousness that can communicate with B, which is dream consciousness. C is some sort of deep sleep that communicates with B, but not with A and B communicates with both A and C. On the Finnish side some time ago some members shared the experience of seeing with their eyes closed and I've had that too. I think I'm looking around my bedroom and forgot that my eyes are actually closed and when I open them it's too dark to see anything.
I often kind of know I'm dreaming when I am, but this time my dream self also remembered some things that have happened in some earlier dreams of mine and I was sure they have really happened. So even though I was conscious of being in B-state, I confused A with what might be C. I'm wondering if A could be associated with white, B with red and C with black astral and magic considered as communication of A and C through B.

In my dream there was a park where I had been bullied in earlier dream and this time there was paintings/photographs of that, one where a group of people violently forced me to kiss some disgusting object that I don't remember. I think it might've been something pulled out of a trash can. I knew that the park with the paintings was a dream, but I was sure that the actual violence had happened to me until I woke up.

I interpret dreams rather lazily, not as wish-fulfilment but as visual representations of ongoing energy/psychological pressures in my system. In this case, the strongest emotions connected to experiences of forced humiliation and loss of control, so I'd take it to mean that I have a traumatic relationship to certain types of social situations due to some feeling of unworthiness. I think the emotional attachment to the pictures and the confusion of different types of memory hints at being affected by "C" as some ontologically significant energy (sorry for the horribly clumsy expression) that is also auric in waking consciousness, like an axiomatic basis for seeing the world in a certain way. I think communicating with this energetic level is the key to understanding and in some sense controlling synchronistic events.
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Soror O
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Re: Symbolism in Dreams

Post by Soror O »

Nefastos wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 9:32 am
– Symbolism that is apparently mythical and universal
I've had re-occurring dreams of water, fire, walls, houses, snakes and wolves. (All of which I interpret as being mythical and/or universal symbols.)

In my dreams wolves used to roam especially around a certain house (my former home, in the woods). In one of my dreams I dreamt of a black dog, which I let in the house. In that time my second child told that he had begun having dreams of "mother's black dog" (which he was afraid of). Later, when I had already moved out, a clear track of a wolf was found near the house. Just now, I started to ponder if my wolf dreams were about me sensing the actual wolves around the house (now it's known that there is a wolf couple living in that area). Or were my wolf dreams about my internal journey into the wilderness of my psyche. I do think it was both - for there is a reason to dwell in the places that we do. Also, about that time a certain euphemism about my fathers death was born in my psyche: "the big bad wolf has died" (all the little sheep rejoyced). Writing this, I realise having a huge wolf in my wall. It's an old school picture board. To my brother I said that it's a reminder that we are not that domesticated anyhow. But I like to think that I domesticated the big bad wolf, for he is no longer but a picture board on my wall.


***
(And a example of more of an autobiographical symbol.)

For some reason, I still remember vividly a dream that I had as a child: Alongside dark woods, my father is driving a car, I am in the back seat. The car stops, and from the dark woods our formerly deceased family cat is emerging downhill, unavoidably. The cat starts to devour me and I am still alive, witnessing as he tears my flesh. I usually died very soon in my dreams (and I used to kill myself, in order to wake up), but now I just linger on and on.

To spoil the plot, the cat was (an undead part of) my father. Thinking about this dream gets me still the sense that my body is rotting somewhere alongside the dark woods. But here I am, in my sweet home, with two lovely tomcats keeping me company. (Real cats, not men.)



'*
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nocturne ignis
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Re: Symbolism in Dreams

Post by nocturne ignis »

Hello, I would like to share my experience last night, I was previously been discussing this with
Sister Polyhymnia I was sharing with her a bullying nightmare. It was so vivid that woke me up
around 12:58 am. Instill remember the basic scenario of the nightmare were out in a weird street
it was like a hill and I was sitting on the side road and I remember this there were more than 3 people
around me laughing I recognized one of them in the dream. The emotional feeling was revenge and I was in an argument with the person I know that I haven't seen in more than 25 years that in the dream he was taking revenge on me. The other people were making fun and one of them broke my teeth and I was in the dream
Pulling out the shattered teeth. The bullier that is not my friend not an old friend was saying I was waiting for this moment and ingot you.

It was vivid as watching a movie, and I worked up all disoriented unaware of myself. After coming back to my senses I had many thoughts one that this person died and was in the spirit trying to reach and harm! Second that the person recognized was trying to make witchcraft, which he was or is a spiritist. Other thoughts like I been under stressful situations with coworkers were affecting me, which even more valid but the person in question what be going in the dream. And after reading this post and communicating with Polyhymnia I think she mentions this post about bullying nightmares could be some kind of astral attacks.
But the most important part of all is that I proceed to my devotional of Saturday's praying and invoking Satan
glorious father and meditated chanted to Him and cleaned myself with His insience I felt incredibly well and
I felt His energy I wanted even dance around my altar which I did. Now I think and feel the Archetype of Saturne wanted me to call out my attention or test to see if I will be capable to reach out even in moments of terrors.
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nocturne ignis
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Re: Symbolism in Dreams

Post by nocturne ignis »

Sorry now that I read brother's post about dreaming with wolves. I remembered I also dreamed but the only picture I have in my mind about this dream prior to the bullying nightmare was that I had on my torso area a beast wolf like attached to. And the image of me in that particular dream I was older there older than now. As a matter of fact it was not my image , it was me but in another body of and older man with a wolf beast attached to my torso " waist up" like a Siamese. Or more exact a twin when they are born attached to one body. That's what I mean. Is just the flash of the image in my memory I know it happened before because I wake and walk around the house.
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Re: Symbolism in Dreams

Post by Polyhymnia »

nocturne ignis wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 12:00 am communicating with Polyhymnia I think she mentions this post about bullying nightmares could be some kind of astral attacks.
This isn't quite what I meant in our discussion, as I'm not even sure where I stand regarding the dream world and astral attacks. That being said, I don't discount the possibility of something like this (astral attacks) either. I was moreso talking about the idea of synchronicity, and how it was interesting to note that I had a dream about being bullied, then opened my email to find your dream about bullying, and then when I opened the forum, saw Insanus's post about bullying in his dream.

Which then makes me wonder, how do you all see these synchronistic phenomena? Perhaps a new thread should be made for that topic.

But I also have to ask, what do you think of the symbolism behind being bullied in a dream? This was the first time I could remember being bullied like this in a dream. There were a bunch of teenagers playing all kinds of mean pranks on me, and finally I walked up to them in the field through this long fence and asked two of the boys, "why are you doing this to me?" and they replied, "we just don't like you." As I've stated multiple times, I'm no expert on dream interpretation, nor do I do it all too often. But psychologically, there have been sone issues with insecurity as of late, and I'm inclined to feel the dream at least in part a manifestation of that. And then is it just by chance several of us dreamed of being bullied? Or is there some kind of theme in the astral currents at play?
"Limited love asks for possession of the beloved, but the unlimited asks only for itself." -Kahlil Gibran
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Polyhymnia
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Re: Symbolism in Dreams

Post by Polyhymnia »

Soror O wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 11:16 pm (And a example of more of an autobiographical symbol.)

For some reason, I still remember vividly a dream that I had as a child: Alongside dark woods, my father is driving a car, I am in the back seat. The car stops, and from the dark woods our formerly deceased family cat is emerging downhill, unavoidably. The cat starts to devour me and I am still alive, witnessing as he tears my flesh. I usually died very soon in my dreams (and I used to kill myself, in order to wake up), but now I just linger on and on.

To spoil the plot, the cat was (an undead part of) my father. Thinking about this dream gets me still the sense that my body is rotting somewhere alongside the dark woods. But here I am, in my sweet home, with two lovely tomcats keeping me company. (Real cats, not men.)
Killing yourself in dreams just to wake up sounds absolutely terrifying. I don't know if I'd ever want to sleep again, should I ever experience something similar. Your speaking of your father reminds me of Sylvia Plath's poem, "Daddy."
Polyhymnia wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 4:56 pm
nocturne ignis wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 12:21 am Sorry now that I read brother's post about dreaming with wolves. I remembered I also dreamed but the only picture I have in my mind about this dream prior to the bullying nightmare was that I had on my torso area a beast wolf like attached to. And the image of me in that particular dream I was older there older than now. As a matter of fact it was not my image , it was me but in another body of and older man with a wolf beast attached to my torso " waist up" like a Siamese.
This symbolism is so interesting to me, with not just the mythological wolf, but also the physical phenomenon of being like a conjoined twin with the wolf.
"Limited love asks for possession of the beloved, but the unlimited asks only for itself." -Kahlil Gibran
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Nefastos
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Re: Symbolism in Dreams

Post by Nefastos »

Insanus wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 1:47 pmI only see dreams when I don't sleep well, and it made me think of this model of consciousness (Kafka's? I can't remember whose idea this is) where there's three levels A, B and C. A is waking consciousness that can communicate with B, which is dream consciousness. C is some sort of deep sleep that communicates with B, but not with A and B communicates with both A and C. [...] I'm wondering if A could be associated with white, B with red and C with black astral and magic considered as communication of A and C through B.

In case I understood right what you mean, that is how I have used the astral colour terminology.

Kafka is an interesting example to use in accordance with one's astral consciousnesses, but I have thought the same. From Kafka I learned how one can use the noose of neurotic mind to make a magical rope, leading elsewhere. Once again we come to hyper-concentration, "gazing too intently" in order to penetrate the seemingly impossible obstacle. It becomes so heavy from all that concentration that finally it collapses into itself, and at that point, the observing mind can quickly step through.

Polyhymnia wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 4:56 pmWhich then makes me wonder, how do you all see these synchronistic phenomena? Perhaps a new thread should be made for that topic.

Perhaps we could continue an older discussion, Synchronicity & Sacredness? But a new thread might also be in order, since that one tends toward specialized interpretations. Whichever you think would work better!
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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