BEING A TRANSEXUAL AND COSMETIC SURGERY?

Putting together ones life with the modern world.
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Aquila
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Re: BEING A TRANSEXUAL AND COSMETIC SURGERY?

Post by Aquila »

Gangleri wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 12:09 pm In some esoteric circles it has been debated that feeling oneself to be of a different sex than one's corporeal form results from that one has been incarnating into that "inner sex" for long periods of incarnations and thus one has developed internally the qualities of that particular sex. With modern technology one can again relatively easily become that sex that one has developed and incarnated for a long time. This is of course only esoteric speculation but it does resonate with me.

Personally I think that one should consider first examining and developing the internal and psychological side profoundly before thinking about cosmetic surgery and changing the outer form. One can well be a masculine woman or a feminine man without it necessarily leading into an outer bodily change. The corporeal form after all also incarnates an archetype and is no co-incidence. Sex change and cosmetic surgery are such huge operations done to the body and mind that I personally would like to see that the possibility (and the relentless propaganda attached to it nowadays) would be denied by law from non-adults, since children and teens are not mature enough to make that kind of life-changing decisions, and the studies done also shows many regret the operation afterwards. Just because something is possible doesn't mean it is a good thing.
The first point you made is very difficult to honestly agree with. One could always say that something is being debated in esoteric circles and think it is some valid point against someone's choices. Unfortunately esoteric circles in general are not less biased than any other circle of humans. There are strong pre-assumptions which might be mirrored from the astral realms to strengthen the feeling of being right. More time and more observation is needed.

The other problem is the supposition that transsexual people have not made such self-reflections that you propose to be done before the surgery. I believe many have spent years thinking and contemplating on it and most will be happy with the results. Yet there might be some that feel they have done wrong but it is not a point against all.

In cases where the person having gone through the process feels that now things are closer to how they are supposed to be, it serves as the proof that it was the right thing to do. It is the best we have and there is not much credible possibilities of bringing up differing opinions from outside. Religion and esotericism should not be used against the freedom of others. Even if some people do wrong to themselves I tend to think that it will be corrected under suitable karmic situation later. Also our idea of what is wrong and what is right is often very limited when discussing issues that don't fall under black and white solutions.

I do not think that anything that feels good is always right. There are lot of problematic identity movements that always include people who are doing things due to wrong reasons and wrong ideas. Mostly I think it's only about the pendulum movements of the world and I have fallen victim to it few times taking turns to right and left. Sometimes I have underlying feelings against people who don't fit my categories of how sexes should be lived with. It might take time to fully understand what it is about but to take it as an indication of some esoteric truth behind it, would be too quick a judgement. Because it is relatively new issue in our society, the gut feeling might be caused by opinions that have been learned from people much less understanding than what our possibilities of understanding today are.

My opinion about the topic in general:

Consciousness creates the world but in this physical world it happens in time, which involves something we can view as historical and social processes. Our present day view of sexes and how they are created are affected by this time driven process. As historical processes also affect how the material world appears today, some people who in spirit are somewhere between sexes, might be born into wrong bodies because the world is as much collective creation as it is individual. Thus our bodies are not "perfect" but are born into certain karmic situation (perfect is very relational here, one could say that everything is perfect as it is and should be accepted, but in this case it should also be accepted that when something is changed it is still equally perfect). To some it will be possible to experience a change that today is enabled by surgery. Because it is possible it can be good, bad or something else depending on the individual situation which I know very little about.
Gangleri

Re: BEING A TRANSEXUAL AND COSMETIC SURGERY?

Post by Gangleri »

Aquila wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 3:38 pm The first point you made is very difficult to honestly agree with. One could always say that something is being debated in esoteric circles and think it is some valid point against someone's choices.
I brought it up since this is an esoteric forum and said that the idea makes sense to me rationally.
Aquila wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 3:38 pmThe other problem is the supposition that transsexual people have not made such self-reflections that you propose to be done before the surgery. I believe many have spent years thinking and contemplating on it and most will be happy with the results. Yet there might be some that feel they have done wrong but it is not a point against all.
I haven't really supposed anything, and I'm sure many have contemplated it. I'm just pondering on ethics. The reason I contemplated about giving (psycho-)therapy to those with gender dysphoria was quite well-intentioned: to help people struggling with such things, so they are not left alone with their thoughts and struggles. Perhaps therapy will strengthen their convictions, perhaps they come to other realization; either way it would help them before they make a life-changing operation.

Studies that have been done without ideological biases show that many transsexuals - even while living in a trans-friendly atmosphere - regret the decision and the suicide rate among the transgender people is relatively high.
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Aquila
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Re: BEING A TRANSEXUAL AND COSMETIC SURGERY?

Post by Aquila »

Gangleri wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 4:26 pm
Aquila wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 3:38 pmThe other problem is the supposition that transsexual people have not made such self-reflections that you propose to be done before the surgery. I believe many have spent years thinking and contemplating on it and most will be happy with the results. Yet there might be some that feel they have done wrong but it is not a point against all.
I haven't really supposed anything, and I'm sure many have contemplated it. I'm just pondering on ethics. The reason I contemplated about giving (psycho-)therapy to those with gender dysphoria was quite well-intentioned: to help people struggling with such things, so they are not left alone with their thoughts and struggles. Perhaps therapy will strengthen their convictions, perhaps they come to other realization; either way it would help them before they make a life-changing operation.

Studies that have been done without ideological biases show that many transsexuals - even while living in a trans-friendly atmosphere - regret the decision and the suicide rate among the transgender people is relatively high.
I agree with the idea that therapy should be more easily available and should be so in many other situations too. Probably many have been to therapy already and their problem is not at all similar to your Conan example because it's not about some ideal male/female body but something else.

Various studies say various different things. If you want to bring studies into discussion, then you have to provide links to the studies so others can look at them and see what makes them ideologically unbiased. The problem here is that anything that is called ideologically unbiased, is usually something else. I made some searches and found studies that generally mention the regrets to be 1% or less.

You mentioned that one esoteric interpretation that felt credible. How about other interpretations? Why they don't feel right?
Tariq
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Re: BEING A TRANSEXUAL AND COSMETIC SURGERY?

Post by Tariq »

I feel that this topic is similar to the question of abortion, for example. When discussing about abortion, men are eager to tell women what they should do with their bodies. And when discussing transgender people, cis people are often eager to tell trans people what they should do with their bodies. I don't know how these things work in other countries, but at least in Finland the entire process involves a lot of discussions with several different health care experts. Psychiatrists, psychologists, doctors, nurses, social workers. It involves filling pages after pages after pages of different questionnaires, and occasionally even psychological tests. There are all kinds of requirements, for example needing to have a constant trans identity for several years. So no, it's not really a question of just walking to a doctor and asking for some cosmetic surgery. It's a long and heavy process. I'm not saying that nobody ever regrets, but I personally think that adding more requirements to it makes the already long process even longer, thus increasing the anxiety of those who need these treatments. I also think comparing transgender people's gender dysphoria to someone identifying as Hulk sounds a little bit weird.

For myself being transgender hasn't been simple. It has involved so many stages of fear, and so many stages of lies. I have lied to people for years, I have pretended and tried to be something I am not. I have feared and worried for what people might think, how they will react. Will they abandon me? Will they act cruelly towards me? What will happen when people find out at work? What will my parents say? What will my partner say? What will my friends say? For me, it's been a question I have thought about for years before I even contacted a doctor about it. Years before I even told a single soul about it. In addition to my worries regarding people, I have worried for my health, and I have worried for more religious aspects. How will the spirits of my forefathers see me, how will one god or another feel about this. Am I crazy? Am I just having some age crisis? Am I trans enough? It's been a heavy and dark road for me.

Right now I am in the middle of the process, but heading towards the 'end' of it. I suppose the journey never ends. There are still checkpoints that I must reach, still doctors I must meet, but I can already live my life in the new social role. It has been very liberating. I feel that I am no longer lying to people, that I am now truthfully what I really am. There is a line in one of Behemoth's songs: I'm most complete yet so undone. I feel that way about myself. I feel that I am still in the middle of the process, but I also feel that I am now in the perfect balance with everything. Nobody abandoned me. People close to me accepted me, and embraced my new social role. I think if I live my life well enough, if I keep my promises and fulfill my duties, if I work hard and try to be the best I can be, then my forefathers surely have nothing to complain about. If Satan is the lord of this world, then surely he doesn't mind me either. Isn't the thought behind the oneness/unity idea, that everything is one. Then Satan is me, and I am him.

I still fear. I worry what a person hearing about this side of me for the first time might think. I worry what a forum full of satanists might think. I worry and fear for it, and at the same time I don't care. I know what I am. For me, at least right now, this is something that has bought me closer to balance. This is a process that allows me to focus on other things than feeling bad and wrong all the time. This process lets me live more truthfully. I realise the story might not be the same for someone else.

I apologise for any misspellings or bad grammar.
Kavi
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Re: BEING A TRANSEXUAL AND COSMETIC SURGERY?

Post by Kavi »

Tariq wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 8:01 pm I still fear.
Thank you for your valuable thoughts!
It's even unforgivable from cis point of view how things still are and that there is even a slightest fear of social rejection and abandonment from being trans.
Gangleri

Re: BEING A TRANSEXUAL AND COSMETIC SURGERY?

Post by Gangleri »

For the record, since you seem to be interpreting my example wrongly: The issue was about medical ethics and human freedom in general, and whether a doctor has an ethical responsibility to act as a Human syringe who fulfills a patient's desires to be what one wants to be. For the unbearable swine that I seem to be, maybe I should wait for the Day when I can attach my head to a body of a pig or the other way around. Who could have objections.

Aquila: I'm open to other interpretations and theories, I'm not locked into one set of thought.

Tariq: Thank you for your valuable inside information. I would treat you and other transgender people just the same as any other people, in Case some one Wonders.
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divaricca
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Re: BEING A TRANSEXUAL AND COSMETIC SURGERY?

Post by divaricca »

Gangleri wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 12:09 pm In some esoteric circles it has been debated that feeling oneself to be of a different sex than one's corporeal form results from that one has been incarnating into that "inner sex" for long periods of incarnations and thus one has developed internally the qualities of that particular sex. With modern technology one can again relatively easily become that sex that one has developed and incarnated for a long time. This is of course only esoteric speculation but it does resonate with me.

Personally I think that one should consider first examining and developing the internal and psychological side profoundly before thinking about cosmetic surgery and changing the outer form. One can well be a masculine woman or a feminine man without it necessarily leading into an outer bodily change. The corporeal form after all also incarnates an archetype and is no co-incidence. Sex change and cosmetic surgery are such huge operations done to the body and mind that I personally would like to see that the possibility (and the relentless propaganda attached to it nowadays) would be denied by law from non-adults, since children and teens are not mature enough to make that kind of life-changing decisions, and the studies done also shows many regret the operation afterwards. Just because something is possible doesn't mean it is a good thing.
Thank you for your beautiful words!

I totally agree! Absolutely that an internal and investigation must first take place where the psychological side is also thoroughly investigated and developed! The cosmetic or aesthetic adjustments should not be a distraction for other important things that are ignored... If the aesthetic interventions are done out of a deep need or make you genuinely ''happy'', I think it's definitely spiritual! like a tattoo, you mark something.

About Children, no discussion! Children should be allowed to express themselves freely, but hormones and operations should be kept far away from children! children should be children.

The propaganda indeed is also a strong point! It is immediately assumed that you will undergo the extreme "sex surgery". For example, I was put on the list from day one.

It should only be done if there is a deep and serious need to adapt (which is rare) if it is done for the sake of "being a woman" or for love partners or to conform to society. .. you definitely shouldn't do it. I'll skip it, I see it as an extreme form of body modification that has no added value (of course I only speak for myself).

I mainly mean ''feminization'' such as hormones, aesthetic procedures such as making the nose more refined... laser hair removal... and so on,

My goal is also not to look like a born woman or cis-gender woman, it seems unhealthy to me. I also think the androgynous is beautiful, I embrace my sharp edges.

I often read that people who want to do aesthetic procedures and want to look 'beautiful' are shallow or not ''enlightened'' and that makes me throw up. For it is certainly poetic and enormously spiritual to adapt the body with what the soul wants to express. Well I am an 'Aesthete' who balances between hedonism and ascentism :evil:

I see my transgender journey as a journey where you deal with duality, polarities and opposites at an early age and try to unite them. It is a path where self-knowledge, self-image and the art of expressing the soul are learned and experienced. It was never about going from point a to point b but about embracing the entity itself. And the best part is that you gain knowledge from people, you learn to look at the world through a different lens..
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divaricca
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Re: BEING A TRANSEXUAL AND COSMETIC SURGERY?

Post by divaricca »

Tariq wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 8:01 pm I still fear. I worry what a person hearing about this side of me for the first time might think. I worry what a forum full of satanists might think. I worry and fear for it, and at the same time I don't care. I know what I am. For me, at least right now, this is something that has bought me closer to balance. This is a process that allows me to focus on other things than feeling bad and wrong all the time. This process lets me live more truthfully. I realise the story might not be the same for someone else.

I apologise for any misspellings or bad grammar.
It is indeed a very delicate topic. I can only speak for myself.

Embrace who and what you are.
Love <3
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divaricca
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Re: BEING A TRANSEXUAL AND COSMETIC SURGERY?

Post by divaricca »

Aquila wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 3:38 pm
Gangleri wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 12:09 pm

The other problem is the supposition that transsexual people have not made such self-reflections that you propose to be done before the surgery. I believe many have spent years thinking and contemplating on it and most will be happy with the results. Yet there might be some that feel they have done wrong but it is not a point against all.


I do not think that anything that feels good is always right. There are lot of problematic identity movements that always include people who are doing things due to wrong reasons and wrong ideas. Mostly I think it's only about the pendulum movements of the world and I have fallen victim to it few times taking turns to right and left. Sometimes I have underlying feelings against people who don't fit my categories of how sexes should be lived with. It might take time to fully understand what it is about but to take it as an indication of some esoteric truth behind it, would be too quick a judgement. Because it is relatively new issue in our society, the gut feeling might be caused by opinions that have been learned from people much less understanding than what our possibilities of understanding today are.

My opinion about the topic in general:

Consciousness creates the world but in this physical world it happens in time, which involves something we can view as historical and social processes. Our present day view of sexes and how they are created are affected by this time driven process. As historical processes also affect how the material world appears today, some people who in spirit are somewhere between sexes, might be born into wrong bodies because the world is as much collective creation as it is individual. Thus our bodies are not "perfect" but are born into certain karmic situation (perfect is very relational here, one could say that everything is perfect as it is and should be accepted, but in this case it should also be accepted that when something is changed it is still equally perfect). To some it will be possible to experience a change that today is enabled by surgery. Because it is possible it can be good, bad or something else depending on the individual situation which I know very little about.
Very beautiful and touching words! Thank You!
Gangleri

Re: BEING A TRANSEXUAL AND COSMETIC SURGERY?

Post by Gangleri »

Aquila: there sure are many studies that show a regret value of 1 % but in their conclusions are also Stated that the figure is highly subjective and the researches lack proper questionnaires to assess the issue conclusively.

Concerning a surgical operation, there is also a very pressing ethical question of a possible wrong gone operation that leaves one with chronic pain, sexual problems and other maladies.

With the words of an actual activist: https://www.news-medical.net/news/20191 ... ivist.aspx
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