BEING A TRANSEXUAL AND COSMETIC SURGERY?

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divaricca
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BEING A TRANSEXUAL AND COSMETIC SURGERY?

Post by divaricca »

Hi I was very curious about your spiritual perspective on transgender people and transsexuality.

For myself as a male-to-female androgynous creatura I see the experience as a unique journey that is about authenticity, I have learned to embrace the polarities within myself to be able to liberate and manifest myself in this world where duality seems to be central. For me it was never about going from point A (being a man) to point B (being a woman) it was about being able to be my authentic self and that turns out to be a trans woman in this world… everything I do, radiate and myself I identify with is experienced as feminine and dominant in such a way that I have become like a woman. (even though I'm aware that we all carry both within us). By nature I am very androgynous in appearance, when I turned 23 I feared that my body might become more masculine and that motivated me to take a low dose of feminizing hormones...which not only keeps me androgynous but also makes me more feminine I never really had a 'transformation' it was more an evolution.. or transmution - I'm just saying this to give you an idea of my "background" as a transgender person. Obviously I can only speak for myself.

I also don't feel the need to compare myself to cis-gender woman or to claim that I am the same, I embrace myself as I am... It is a journey about self-knowledge, self-image and the art of expressing the soul itself in this matter and carnal vessel. It is certainly also poetic and spiritual to let the body reflect with what is experienced internally and what the soul wants to radiate. The relationship of mind, soul and body is often also highlighted during a transition. I view cosmetic surgery as something spiritual; You fast before the procedure, you then lie down on the altar of the artist, where you are put to sleep symbolizing death, blood is sacrificed for what you want to manifest, then you wake up (rebirth) and embody what you want - personal aesthetics.

An extra question: Do you think that after death and in a possible afterlife we ​​choose our 'form' and appearance? or does it not matter anymore... my ego wondered this :P

Lots of love,

R
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Nefastos
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Re: BEING A TRANSEXUAL AND COSMETIC SURGERY?

Post by Nefastos »

Thank you for an interesting & topical question, divaricca!

For the basis of my personal answer, I translate here a text that was recently published as a prologue addendum in the republishing of Magna Mater:

Apocrypha Lucifera wrote:The gender archetypes are born from the geometric polarities in the following symbol functions: (1) male polarity is the magnetic + pole, female polarity the magnetic – pole. (2) "Father" is the circle's center point, "Mother" is the circle's circumference, "Son" is the line connecting the center and the circumference. (3) Father, Mother and Son are the three points of the triangle, or the upward triangle, downward triangle, and the cross uniting these. (4) Father and Son are the peripheral points of the vertical line of the cross, Mother and Daughter are the peripheral points of the horizontal line of the cross. (When the Daughter is not presented individually, it is manifested as the inside part of the Son [meaning that the Son is actually hermaphroditic]: none of these types is thus not "born" and are never absent, and their mutual hierarchical order is without exception situational and bound to temperaments.)

As we can see from these pictorial keys, in occultism the gender essentialism is symbolical and present in everything. It is not presented as an indication of any incarnated being's one polarity, but the fundamental two-polarity of every being. For a hermetic philosopher gender essentialism or rather gender archetypism is an intrinsic instrument: in practical occultism these polarities, forces, symbols, never cease to be, and neither do they ever petrify into eternal onesidedness. Because of this the unlucky juxtaposition between immovable gender models and on the other hand the models that seek to trivialize the differences and make them disappear altogether is an unnecessary and damaging conflict. An occultist has to persist in going through the processes of these polarities, their changes into each other and newly found nuances almost endlessly: there are phases where the masculine model that hides the feminine inside oneself is a positive one; or a feminine that hides the masculine inside; or hermaphroditic; or seemingly sexless (which means that the polarity is changed onto some other plane, but not that it would have disappeared altogether). The basic phases of magnetisms and temperamental situations that are named as different genders or sexes are in an eternal procession of change in the inevitablity of the Great Work, which can be playful, but which still always remains deep.

divaricca wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 2:02 pmAn extra question: Do you think that after death and in a possible afterlife we ​​choose our 'form' and appearance? or does it not matter anymore...

As I have suggested in Argarizim, there are several afterlife states, which may come to be at once. Some of these are formal, some are formless. Since the first ones are those which also bound the soul to the wheel of reincarnation, and thus to limits and suffering, esoteric instructions traditionally seek to focus the mind to the latter. For such a nirvânic focus, the question "does not matter anymore," as you put it. The afterlife states where there is form are always bound to the "mayavic" side of being, will not endure forever, but will once again change to other shapes in that eternal procession I mentioned above.

Dhammapada starts with the following words: "All that we are is the result of what we have thought: it is founded on our thoughts, it is made up of our thoughts." This is one application of Tabula Smaragdina's most profound hermetic axiom that the manifestation below follows the idea above. But this fundamental basis is not a thesis either for or against cosmetic surgery, which can be thought as its applications that are either helping or hindering depending on our temperamental and other situations, not unlike magical working.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
Tulihenki
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Re: BEING A TRANSEXUAL AND COSMETIC SURGERY?

Post by Tulihenki »

Hopefully I can find wise enough words to describe my thoughts and I must stress that in this sensitive topic my words are only my experiences and how I have felt myself. Quick background: I'm born as a man and my sexual orientation is bi or perhaps pan-sexual.

The way I can relate to topic of transsexualism is that occasionally during somekind of ethereal feeling I can really strongly sense how I don't have anymore male sexual organs but instead female. Also most of my sexual fantasies are about me being a woman in an act of sex. This hasn't been always this way. Maybe during last 5 years it has been more apparent. But I don't feel that this sense of female organs or fantasies are the expression of my higher Self.

In my thinking within this topic I have been pondering ideas of two inner goddesses within me. One is placed in theosophical trinity Atma/Buddhi/Manas and the other is part of the lower triangle. When I torment myself of feeling of failing somehow my inner call of spirituality my lower goddesses rise more with her fierce and by this I mean that it doesn't express anykind of balance between polarities but there comes full rage of total suppressions of masculinity. It's like a wave of astral impulses all you can imagine to wipe away me being a man.

Interesting or maybe scary is for me better word how easily sometimes that torment comes even without a clear reason. I'm sure it's related to my pride/shame issues and how to handle things. Within feelings of shame is also lot easier to let those astral waves to come as ''voices'' are almost telling that let that man go away and surrender: destroy your ego for me.

But at this moment I wanna smile gently to that goddess of fierce. Letting higher rains to wash ''us''.
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divaricca
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Re: BEING A TRANSEXUAL AND COSMETIC SURGERY?

Post by divaricca »

Nefastos wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:23 pm Thank you for an interesting & topical question, divaricca!

For the basis of my personal answer, I translate here a text that was recently published as a prologue addendum in the republishing of Magna Mater:

Apocrypha Lucifera wrote:The gender archetypes are born from the geometric polarities in the following symbol functions: (1) male polarity is the magnetic + pole, female polarity the magnetic – pole. (2) "Father" is the circle's center point, "Mother" is the circle's circumference, "Son" is the line connecting the center and the circumference. (3) Father, Mother and Son are the three points of the triangle, or the upward triangle, downward triangle, and the cross uniting these. (4) Father and Son are the peripheral points of the vertical line of the cross, Mother and Daughter are the peripheral points of the horizontal line of the cross. (When the Daughter is not presented individually, it is manifested as the inside part of the Son [meaning that the Son is actually hermaphroditic]: none of these types is thus not "born" and are never absent, and their mutual hierarchical order is without exception situational and bound to temperaments.)

As we can see from these pictorial keys, in occultism the gender essentialism is symbolical and present in everything. It is not presented as an indication of any incarnated being's one polarity, but the fundamental two-polarity of every being. For a hermetic philosopher gender essentialism or rather gender archetypism is an intrinsic instrument: in practical occultism these polarities, forces, symbols, never cease to be, and neither do they ever petrify into eternal onesidedness. Because of this the unlucky juxtaposition between immovable gender models and on the other hand the models that seek to trivialize the differences and make them disappear altogether is an unnecessary and damaging conflict. An occultist has to persist in going through the processes of these polarities, their changes into each other and newly found nuances almost endlessly: there are phases where the masculine model that hides the feminine inside oneself is a positive one; or a feminine that hides the masculine inside; or hermaphroditic; or seemingly sexless (which means that the polarity is changed onto some other plane, but not that it would have disappeared altogether). The basic phases of magnetisms and temperamental situations that are named as different genders or sexes are in an eternal procession of change in the inevitablity of the Great Work, which can be playful, but which still always remains deep.

divaricca wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 2:02 pmAn extra question: Do you think that after death and in a possible afterlife we ​​choose our 'form' and appearance? or does it not matter anymore...

As I have suggested in Argarizim, there are several afterlife states, which may come to be at once. Some of these are formal, some are formless. Since the first ones are those which also bound the soul to the wheel of reincarnation, and thus to limits and suffering, esoteric instructions traditionally seek to focus the mind to the latter. For such a nirvânic focus, the question "does not matter anymore," as you put it. The afterlife states where there is form are always bound to the "mayavic" side of being, will not endure forever, but will once again change to other shapes in that eternal procession I mentioned above.

Dhammapada starts with the following words: "All that we are is the result of what we have thought: it is founded on our thoughts, it is made up of our thoughts." This is one application of Tabula Smaragdina's most profound hermetic axiom that the manifestation below follows the idea above. But this fundamental basis is not a thesis either for or against cosmetic surgery, which can be thought as its applications that are either helping or hindering depending on our temperamental and other situations, not unlike magical working.
Thank you for sharing, beautiful! and it resonates with me! I also agree on that we are the result of what we have thought. I will be ordering your book 'Argarizim soon.
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divaricca
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Re: BEING A TRANSEXUAL AND COSMETIC SURGERY?

Post by divaricca »

Tulihenki wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 4:13 pm Hopefully I can find wise enough words to describe my thoughts and I must stress that in this sensitive topic my words are only my experiences and how I have felt myself. Quick background: I'm born as a man and my sexual orientation is bi or perhaps pan-sexual.

The way I can relate to topic of transsexualism is that occasionally during somekind of ethereal feeling I can really strongly sense how I don't have anymore male sexual organs but instead female. Also most of my sexual fantasies are about me being a woman in an act of sex. This hasn't been always this way. Maybe during last 5 years it has been more apparent. But I don't feel that this sense of female organs or fantasies are the expression of my higher Self.

In my thinking within this topic I have been pondering ideas of two inner goddesses within me. One is placed in theosophical trinity Atma/Buddhi/Manas and the other is part of the lower triangle. When I torment myself of feeling of failing somehow my inner call of spirituality my lower goddesses rise more with her fierce and by this I mean that it doesn't express anykind of balance between polarities but there comes full rage of total suppressions of masculinity. It's like a wave of astral impulses all you can imagine to wipe away me being a man.

Interesting or maybe scary is for me better word how easily sometimes that torment comes even without a clear reason. I'm sure it's related to my pride/shame issues and how to handle things. Within feelings of shame is also lot easier to let those astral waves to come as ''voices'' are almost telling that let that man go away and surrender: destroy your ego for me.

But at this moment I wanna smile gently to that goddess of fierce. Letting higher rains to wash ''us''.

Thank you for sharing! Very intresting.

Thanks for sharing! I believe we carry both in us anyway.

The sexual was never my motivation, or unconsciously...in fact, as a child I rather 'prayed' that my sexual attraction to men would go away, as long as I could experience the poetry of my feminine 'possession', and could express myself - as long as the goddess could to channel through me. Of course, I have now embraced my sexuality as well.

"Born in the wrong body" is a lazy explanation to me - this is my body and I will be who I want to be. In this world I am experienced as a (trans)woman but I don't really see myself as one or the other... also my aesthetic is based on female-dominant feline androgynous being... I think my strong urge for this aesthetic and ''feminization'' is definitely also a form of being artistic.

Exuse my english BTW X
Gangleri

Re: BEING A TRANSEXUAL AND COSMETIC SURGERY?

Post by Gangleri »

In some esoteric circles it has been debated that feeling oneself to be of a different sex than one's corporeal form results from that one has been incarnating into that "inner sex" for long periods of incarnations and thus one has developed internally the qualities of that particular sex. With modern technology one can again relatively easily become that sex that one has developed and incarnated for a long time. This is of course only esoteric speculation but it does resonate with me.

Personally I think that one should consider first examining and developing the internal and psychological side profoundly before thinking about cosmetic surgery and changing the outer form. One can well be a masculine woman or a feminine man without it necessarily leading into an outer bodily change. The corporeal form after all also incarnates an archetype and is no co-incidence. Sex change and cosmetic surgery are such huge operations done to the body and mind that I personally would like to see that the possibility (and the relentless propaganda attached to it nowadays) would be denied by law from non-adults, since children and teens are not mature enough to make that kind of life-changing decisions, and the studies done also shows many regret the operation afterwards. Just because something is possible doesn't mean it is a good thing.
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Re: BEING A TRANSEXUAL AND COSMETIC SURGERY?

Post by Kenazis »

I
Gangleri wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 12:09 pm
Personally I think that one should consider first examining and developing the internal and psychological side profoundly before thinking about cosmetic surgery and changing the outer form. One can well be a masculine woman or a feminine man without it necessarily leading into an outer bodily change. The corporeal form after all also incarnates an archetype and is no co-incidence. Sex change and cosmetic surgery are such huge operations done to the body and mind that I personally would like to see that the possibility (and the relentless propaganda attached to it nowadays) would be denied by law from non-adults, since children and teens are not mature enough to make that kind of life-changing decisions, and the studies done also shows many regret the operation afterwards. Just because something is possible doesn't mean it is a good thing.
I am pretty much with these lines. There's however also this question of freedom to change yourself where this cosmetic surgery is much more visible and I say might be much less harmful than chemical messing of psyche, brain and body (that most often isn't voluntary or best only part umderstood) via all the poison we are fed through different mediums. This - as all sex- related - topic has so many different angles.
"We live for the woods and the moon and the night"
Gangleri

Re: BEING A TRANSEXUAL AND COSMETIC SURGERY?

Post by Gangleri »

Kenazis wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 3:40 pmI am pretty much with these lines. There's however also this question of freedom to change yourself where this cosmetic surgery is much more visible and I say might be much less harmful than chemical messing of psyche, brain and body (that most often isn't voluntary or best only part umderstood) via all the poison we are fed through different mediums. This - as all sex- related - topic has so many different angles.
The question is by no means an easy one. The way I see it however, if we make formless freedom and the fulfillment of desires the basis of our medical ethics, we are on a very dangerous grounds then; for where to draw the line? The modern age is one of peculiarities and a back slash from the totalitarian age of the last century that brought to end 2000 years of European and global history and culture, in the sense that now everything exceptional is on the rise and there is a tendency to make the exception a new normal, and this normalization is fed into people's minds relentlessly; it is called the "submergence of distinctions" that is a sign of the final phase of the Kali Yuga. Completely experimental "therapies" are even targeted to minors on the basis of this "freedom of choice"; the youth is already confused, so should we really add to that confusion and angst?

The progressives think it is a wholly positive thing, while the conservatives see it as wholly degenerate thing. I believe the truth as always stands in the middle way; we can recognize that there are differences and there have always been exceptions to the rule, and we can in this new freedom allow adult people to choose things of their own liking without judging their decisions. What we should do is ask ourselves the question here as in any other thing, that is the latest innovation and possibility always the best one, to make people consider where their thoughts and emotions arise. We should not make a new normal out of "freakness" (and I by no means I mean this in any dismissing way, being very much a freak myself) where every possible thing is seen as worth of pursuing for, and because of many other reasons relating to human responsibility; nor we should refer to some imaginary state of what is natural, for there is nothing natural in a human being in the sense that there would be some ideal harmonious state of nature, for man as a spiritual and soulful being has never been a part of nature. Ergo: If someone would ask me for advise in a thing such as cosmetic surgery and sexual transition, I would advice them first to think the thing to its very roots.
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Nefastos
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Re: BEING A TRANSEXUAL AND COSMETIC SURGERY?

Post by Nefastos »

Gangleri wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 10:53 pmThe way I see it however, if we make formless freedom and the fulfillment of desires the basis of our medical ethics, we are on a very dangerous grounds then; for where to draw the line?

But aren't we on even more dangerous grounds if we make the basis of medical ethics out of stating what other people should do with their most intimate property, their own body? I also would advise patience and a great deal of self-reflection before everything else, but after that, I cannot, and should not, make intimate choices for the others.

Gangleri wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 10:53 pmI believe the truth as always stands in the middle way; we can recognize that there are differences and there have always been exceptions to the rule, and we can in this new freedom allow adult people to choose things of their own liking without judging their decisions. What we should do is ask ourselves the question here as in any other thing, that is the latest innovation and possibility always the best one, to make people consider where their thoughts and emotions arise.

I agree with you here.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
Gangleri

Re: BEING A TRANSEXUAL AND COSMETIC SURGERY?

Post by Gangleri »

Nefastos wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 11:41 am
Gangleri wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 10:53 pmThe way I see it however, if we make formless freedom and the fulfillment of desires the basis of our medical ethics, we are on a very dangerous grounds then; for where to draw the line?

But aren't we on even more dangerous grounds if we make the basis of medical ethics out of stating what other people should do with their most intimate property, their own body?
Both stances taken dogmatically can lead to situations where ethics are thrown out of the window. I'll take an example that might clarify: perhaps I feel that inside I'm a Conan, a He-Man or a Hulk, and I will want to become that also externally. Good. I'll go see a doctor and demand from him hormonal therapy that will transform myself externally into a muscle monster. It is my body after all, and I'll do with it what I want, I argue. Of course no responsible doctor would assign me with GH/Testo/IGF-1 therapy to satisfy my desires, first of all because messing with the hormonal and chemical balance of my body can lead to numerous mental, psychical and physical problems.

Doesn't occultism also state that we do not actually own our body? Is it responsible ethics to agree with self-mutilation? There also isn't a consensus whether gender dysphoria is simply psychopathology; some have argued so, one criteria being being out of touch with (bodily) reality. Perhaps people with gender dysphoria would need a good therapist before a surgeon.
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