Repugnant Esoteric Instructions

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Nefastos
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Repugnant Esoteric Instructions

Post by Nefastos »

My today's Zohar part was Shemot 5, where it is taught how there are three types of people which "drive the Shechinah [God's presence] from this world and make it impossible for God [sic] to fix His abode here, thereby causing prayers to go unanswered" (commentary). These three most foul things are (1) to have sexual relations with menstruating woman ("The impurity of the menstruating woman is more severe than all the impurities of the world"), (2) to have sexual relations with gentiles, and (3) to abort embryos, including being in intercourse with a woman on the ninetieth day of conception, which is believed to slay the embryo. Earlier Zohar has taught me also how every other sinner in Gehenna (Hell) is being released at some point but not those who ended up there because of masturbation: for that sin, "killing one's own children" (masturbating) is so foul a deed that one will never escape Hell. (Vayechi 24)

Teachings like these have brought with them a cataclysmic amount of questions, problems, and anguish. Especially in our time where occult instructions have left their original context and come beyond time & space to a completely different cultural situations, they can easily do more harm than good.

How do you approach, wrestle, or have wrestled with esoteric instructions that seem to be going against the basic principles of love and understanding?
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
Kenazis
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Re: Repugnant Esoteric Instructions

Post by Kenazis »

Nefastos wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 11:01 am My today's Zohar part was Shemot 5, where it is taught how there are three types of people which "drive the Shechinan [God's presence] from this world and make it impossible for God [sic] to fix His abode here, thereby causing prayers to go unanswered" (commentary). These three most foul things are (1) to have sexual relations with menstruating woman ("The impurity of the menstruating woman is more severe than all the impurities of the world"), (2) to have sexual relations with gentiles, and (3) to abort embryos, including being in intercourse with a woman on the ninetieth day of conception, which is believed to slay the embryo. Earlier Zohar has taught me also how every other sinner in Gehenna (Hell) is being released at some point but not those who ended up there because of masturbation: for that sin, "killing one's own children" (masturbating) is so foul a deed that one will never escape Hell. (Vayechi 24)

Teachings like these have brought with them a cataclysmic amount of questions, problems, and anguish. Especially in our time where occult instructions have left their original context and come beyond time & space to a completely different cultural situations, they can easily do more harm than good.

How do you approach, wrestle, or have wrestled with esoteric instructions that seem to be going against the basic principles of love and understanding?
I thought these questions a while and come to simple conclusion that I have trusted my thinking and feeling of "what makes sense". Many of these (especially religious) rules can be understood being somewhat cultural/time-bound practical things with added religious "flavour". When going into more occult direction, then it isn't so clear anymore. But when I see some esoteric instructions that seems not to make sense, I try to think those instructions from many angles. And If they are against love and understanding, then amor vincit omnia. I have one this kind of memory myself. It was Samael Aun Weor's book(s) that's underlying message seem to be "sexuality is the greatest evil and it destroys all spiritual progress". This was mildly frustrating for I really was just starting my conscious spiritual path and wanted to work towards "enlightenment" (the only important thing and goal then, even didn't have a clue what this enlightenment really was), but giving up all sexual activities was almost equal to suicide. Samael Aun Weor never become big influence on me and thanks to him I steered towards ONA and MLO...hah, ok, the end didn't go like that, but S.A.W. might be one reason I read more LHP and less RHP then.
"We live for the woods and the moon and the night"
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Nefastos
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Re: Repugnant Esoteric Instructions

Post by Nefastos »

Kenazis wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 10:44 am"sexuality is the greatest evil and it destroys all spiritual progress"

It is really fascinating how often one encounters this. And not only in the ancient texts but, as you said, in fairly modern ones.

Some reasons might include:

1) Since sexual drive seems to be opposite to one's apparent self-control, it is seen as "the evil" that bounds one to collectivity.

Problems of this attitude:
a) The most apparent forms of both self-control and lack of it are seldom what is at the bottom of these things. A person seemingly in control of oneself is often in control of hidden kâmic agencies which he does not see, and lives a reactional life. b) Problem is not collectiveness itself, but how it is taken. As I have often stated, there exists not a single person who is not bound to the collective in many, many ways.

2) Sexuality is likely to induce shame in several different ways in persons who are not down to earth by temperament.

Problem of this attitude: Sexuality only brings this pride-shame challenge to one's conscious mind, it does not create it.

3) Sexuality has many cultural taboos in every age & culture. (In our age as well, they are just very different ones than before.)

Problem of this attitude: A great deal of occultism and spirituality is to become aware of cultural taboos and by conscious effort separate unimportant (or even negative) taboos from those that are actually benevolent and reasonable. If one just goes with the flow, he ends up being afraid of his own – and cultural – shadows without reason.

4) Sociological power struggle. Especially in the older times sexuality was so central part of the power play in human society that it became almost monetary wealth. This is connected to the now shaken and changed power play of sexes and cultural gender ideologies, but is not completely the same thing. Also, our time is not by far free from these (now changed) sociological power struggles which use sexuality in several different ways. Often these plays are very subtly self-serving & manipulative.

Problem of this attitude:
The whole attitude is a problem. Sexuality (or the lack of it) should not be about power struggles, but the opposite.

5) Magical reasons regarding one's personal energy reserves.

Problem of this attitude: These are temperamental and vary greatly from person to person, situation to situation. One cannot give one solid form how to deal with sexuality, when the subject is so volatile & apt to change. Only good advices are formless, pertaining to ethics and how to meet oneself & other people (love as compassion, honesty, striving for one's best and not the easiest action).
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
Kenazis
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Re: Repugnant Esoteric Instructions

Post by Kenazis »

Nefastos wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 10:17 am3) Sexuality has many cultural taboos in every age & culture. (In our age as well, they are just very different ones than before.)

Problem of this attitude: A great deal of occultism and spirituality is to become aware of cultural taboos and by consious effort separate unimportant (or even negative) taboos from those that are actually benevolent and reasonable. If one just goes with the flow, he ends up being afraid of his own – and cultural – shadows without reason.
This is the classic failing of both RHP and LHP. RHP condemming whole sexuality and taking all taboos without a pinch of salt. LHP opposing RHP and breaking all taboos and embracing all forms of sexual expression, good and bad, because of mere opposing and turning of values, and not thinking why some things are taboos and separating negative and benevolent ones.

Nefastos wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 10:17 am5) Magical reasons regarding one's personal energey reserves.

Problem of this attitude: These are temperamental and vary greatly from person to person, situation to situation. One cannot give one solid form how to deal with sexuality, when the subject is so volatile & apt to change. Only good advices are formless, pertaining to ethics and how to meet oneself & other people (love as compassion, honesty, striving to one's best and not the easiest action).
This one seems often be the case with eastern ("hinduism"/buddhism) based teachings. Sexual energy is for Kundalini or for profanities. But isn't the opposite point also valid in some degree? I mean all the speak about how sexual activity wastes energy and it's all bad, but it also relaxes and calms down. Isn't this also good for so called spiritual progress. If person is over tensed and hyper-active, would this opposite method be even recommended and not forbidden? (I think you answered this already, but...)
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Re: Repugnant Esoteric Instructions

Post by Nefastos »

Kenazis wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 11:08 amThis is the classic failing of both RHP and LHP. RHP condemming whole sexuality and taking all taboos without a pinch of salt. LHP opposing RHP and breaking all taboos and embracing all forms of sexual expression, good and bad, because of mere opposing and turning of values, and not thinking why some things are taboos and separating negative and benevolent ones.

Exactly. It is like a perfect symbol for the whole need of Star of Azazel's dharma of joining the hands, leaving the bad while taking the good of both.

Kenazis wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 11:08 amThis one seems often be the case with eastern ("hinduism"/buddhism) based teachings. Sexual energy is for Kundalini or for profanities. But isn't the opposite point also valid in some degree? I mean all the speak about how sexual activity wastes energy and it's all bad, but it also relaxes and calms down. Isn't this also good for so called spiritual progress. If person is over tensed and hyper-active, would this opposite method be even recommended and not forbidden? (I think you answered this already, but...)

Yes. I mentioned this massive issue only briefly, because I have dealt with this particular problem so much in many diferent books. One important aspect of this is that while in the old world the "atmospheric energy" was scarce, and calming down was easy, in our time the atmospheric energy is vast, while calming down is hard. (Cynic laziness is not the same as calming down.) So, what was beneficent for many in the time before revolution of arteficial light, is now bad for the most. There is already so much fire and intensity, and what the aspirants would need is its channeling into uses that have to do with positive relationships, inner & outer.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
Kavi
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Re: Repugnant Esoteric Instructions

Post by Kavi »

Nefastos wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 12:00 pm
Kenazis wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 11:08 amThis is the classic failing of both RHP and LHP. RHP condemming whole sexuality and taking all taboos without a pinch of salt. LHP opposing RHP and breaking all taboos and embracing all forms of sexual expression, good and bad, because of mere opposing and turning of values, and not thinking why some things are taboos and separating negative and benevolent ones.

Exactly. It is like a perfect symbol for the whole need of Star of Azazel's dharma of joining the hands, leaving the bad while taking the good of both.
I might have overly socially conscious point of view here.
I guess taking the both, the good of both is possible only when there is actual joining of hands that contemplates the issue.
Just recently I understood why the liquid used in sanitary napkin (kuukautissuoja?) is blue. It is because of the taboo of menstruation blood.
I don't know if couples don't have sex during menstruation but I guess for some people it might be reality.
Such breaking of taboos can be magical in itself already.

I wanted to write that I have had problem with grimoires, where usually God and evil are understood (maybe by me? ) or written in quite dualistic ways.
Again, blood of animals and blood offerings in general.
I can promise to donate blood for Red Cross or as a compromise go to local supermarket and buy(I don't know though..) some but generally speaking I have seen it unethical.
Blood can, of course, be a symbol for everything that is dear to you but...
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Re: Repugnant Esoteric Instructions

Post by Mars »

Kenazis wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 10:44 amI thought these questions a while and come to simple conclusion that I have trusted my thinking and feeling of "what makes sense". Many of these (especially religious) rules can be understood being somewhat cultural/time-bound practical things with added religious "flavour". When going into more occult direction, then it isn't so clear anymore.
In an ideal situation esoteric instructions would be free of time-bound influences but it doesn't seem to be so. Maybe there should be esoteric exegesis, like biblical exegesis where these things are researched.

When I first read Blavatsky's comments on sexuality years ago I remember laughing and thinking that I'll worry about all this in the next life. A defence reaction, probably, but also an indication of how far off these things can be to your average 21st century occultist. In no way could I force myself to complete celibacy. It would ruin my health completely. That friction has forced me to spend a lot of time thinking and ruminating on these things. I've come to the conclusion that these are things that are at some point demanded from all of us, but not until we are ready. I've drawn my focus from particulars to universals, in a sense, and tried to concentrate on the big picture (altruism, ethics etc.).

My personal pet peeve are instructions that undermine human beings and their worth. Many Traditionalist teachings fall under his category. Esoterism where human beings are seen as somehow unworthy is a paradox in my opinion.
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Re: Repugnant Esoteric Instructions

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Kavi wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 12:14 pmI wanted to write that I have had problem with grimoires, where usually God and evil are understood (maybe by me? ) or written in quite dualistic ways. Again, blood of animals and blood offerings in general.

Both very usual problems in many of the older types of magical tradition. Yet not universal, just too common. Another teaching, the one of compassion towards animals goes as far back as does any trace of esoteric teaching. In the Western culture, this means the school of Pythagoras, who taught vegetarianism.

Just today I came across this thought of Cato: "Ture deum placa, vitulum sine crescat aratro: ne credas gaudere deum, cum caede litatur." = "Spare calves to plough: heaven’s grace with incense gain: Think not God loves the blood of victims slain."

Mars wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 6:04 pmEsoterism where human beings are seen as somehow unworthy is a paradox in my opinion.

It is indeed a very twisted idea, and yet amazingly persistent. The latest reincarnations are Lutheran doctrine of innate worthlessness (absolute need of mercy) and the equally devilish postmodern idea of meaninglessness of spiritual striving.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Re: Repugnant Esoteric Instructions

Post by Gangleri »

Nefastos wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 10:58 pm
Mars wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 6:04 pmEsoterism where human beings are seen as somehow unworthy is a paradox in my opinion.

It is indeed a very twisted idea, and yet amazingly persistent. The latest reincarnations are Lutheran doctrine of innate worthlessness (absolute need of mercy) and the equally devilish postmodern idea of meaninglessness of spiritual striving.
I have not found any such statements from Traditionalist authors but that kind of thinking and attitude can stem from the fact that traditionalists have a tendency to demand very much from both themselves and people in general, resulting in some form of cruelty.
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Re: Repugnant Esoteric Instructions

Post by Mars »

Gangleri wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 5:30 pm
Nefastos wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 10:58 pm
Mars wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 6:04 pmEsoterism where human beings are seen as somehow unworthy is a paradox in my opinion.

It is indeed a very twisted idea, and yet amazingly persistent. The latest reincarnations are Lutheran doctrine of innate worthlessness (absolute need of mercy) and the equally devilish postmodern idea of meaninglessness of spiritual striving.
I have not found any such statements from Traditionalist authors but that kind of thinking and attitude can stem from the fact that traditionalists have a tendency to demand very much from both themselves and people in general, resulting in some form of cruelty.
Yes. It's also more like something that can be read between the lines. Granted, there are also simply lots of different ways of thinking about what is humanity etc., so this is far from an easy topic and a lot of things affect our opinions. Lutheran doctrines were also on my mind when writing my reply.

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