Revelation

Rational discussions on metaphysical and abstract topics.
Mars
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Revelation

Post by Mars »

What do you think about the concept of revelation? Do you believe that revelation from "above" from a deity or divinity is possible, like in the Christian revelation through Christ? Or do you believe that such revelation is impossible and instead human beings must work to ascend to divinity solely by their own efforts, like in the systems of Plotinus or Blavatsky?
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Nefastos
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Re: Revelation

Post by Nefastos »

Can't both be true at the same time? That the superindividual revelation is possible only via, and at the peak of, the struggle of individuals?
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
Kavi
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Re: Revelation

Post by Kavi »

Mars wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 11:40 am What do you think about the concept of revelation? Do you believe that revelation from "above" from a deity or divinity is possible, like in the Christian revelation through Christ? Or do you believe that such revelation is impossible and instead human beings must work to ascend to divinity solely by their own efforts, like in the systems of Plotinus or Blavatsky?
I have thought about the concept of revelation in human soul, maybe firstly not in metaphysical way but as a metaphor, pictures one could look within and think.
I wrote something about it in "apocalypse, New Era and antichrist" thread.

I would like to also make interesting allegory that Christ is revealed through sacred pregnancy of Mary. In similar way, in controversial sense, how Muhammad became pregnant and Quran was revealed. It's interesting to think about in esoteric way also how some of the surah were eaten by camel according to one anecdote. They exist and were revealed but vanished from being able to see through organic life itself.
This is just an anecdote and can't verify if such story exists but anyway it is fascinating thought how revelation is part with the world, yet unseen because it is integrated, digestated and changed form and yet it exists.
Angolmois

Re: Revelation

Post by Angolmois »

Mars wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 11:40 am What do you think about the concept of revelation? Do you believe that revelation from "above" from a deity or divinity is possible, like in the Christian revelation through Christ? Or do you believe that such revelation is impossible and instead human beings must work to ascend to divinity solely by their own efforts, like in the systems of Plotinus or Blavatsky?
Like Nefastos implied also, I believe revelation from above may happen when an individual has oneself ascended as far as possible with their own efforts. But to try to ascend to divinity solely by human efforts is like a promethean attempt of Münchausen to try to fly by grabbing oneself from the neck.
Mars
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Re: Revelation

Post by Mars »

Nefastos wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 11:48 am Can't both be true at the same time? That the superindividual revelation is possible only via, and at the peak of, the struggle of individuals?
In the language of Christian mysticism we find terms like surrendering to God or emptying ourselves. This implies that the revelation is "handed down", whereas in Plotinian and Blavatskyan thought the ascent is the key. Revelation happens in both examples but the methodology is in my view quite different. This is what I was trying to get at, the juxtaposition of the two.
Kavi
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Re: Revelation

Post by Kavi »

Mars wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 4:13 pm
Nefastos wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 11:48 am Can't both be true at the same time? That the superindividual revelation is possible only via, and at the peak of, the struggle of individuals?
In the language of Christian mysticism we find terms like surrendering to God or emptying ourselves. This implies that the revelation is "handed down", whereas in Plotinian and Blavatskyan thought the ascent is the key. Revelation happens in both examples but the methodology is in my view quite different. This is what I was trying to get at, the juxtaposition of the two.
I think there is also ladder of Jacob where one is trying constantly making effort to rise up and trying not to fall?
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Nefastos
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Re: Revelation

Post by Nefastos »

Kavi wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 4:15 pmI think there is also ladder of Jacob where one is trying constantly making effort to rise up and trying not to fall?

That's more like the ladder of Climacus, an early Christian ascetic. Jacob's ladder was for the angels, and didn't necessarily seem to imply striving.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
Kavi
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Re: Revelation

Post by Kavi »

Nefastos wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 4:48 pm
Kavi wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 4:15 pmI think there is also ladder of Jacob where one is trying constantly making effort to rise up and trying not to fall?

That's more like the ladder of Climacus, an early Christian ascetic. Jacob's ladder was for the angels, and didn't necessarily seem to imply striving.
Ahaa, yes you are right! I had just image in my mind and associated it with Jacob.
So instead of striving, there is just a sense of temptation of sin I guess which makes person fall?
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Nefastos
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Re: Revelation

Post by Nefastos »

Mars wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 4:13 pmIn the language of Christian mysticism we find terms like surrendering to God or emptying ourselves. This implies that the revelation is "handed down", whereas in Plotinian and Blavatskyan thought the ascent is the key. Revelation happens in both examples but the methodology is in my view quite different. This is what I was trying to get at, the juxtaposition of the two.

In case one would have to choose, either metaphysically (i.e. what kind of a soteriological language to use here), or temperamentically (i.e. what would be one's emphasis on this question), I would choose the Neoplatonic & Blavatskyan stance here, which is also the Luciferian one. So, according to my personal religious choice I'd say that "handed down" revelation is – juxtaposition underlined on purpose as you wished – worthless. In case such a mystery would belong to a theological world, such a mystery would belong to the theology of a tyrant God towards with I hold only contempt.

But since "contempt" can only be part of a partly symbolical, exoterical gnostic view, I consider this approach to be forced and not often beneficent one to take.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
Angolmois

Re: Revelation

Post by Angolmois »

Nefastos wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 9:14 pm So, according to my personal religious choice I'd say that "handed down" revelation is – juxtaposition underlined on purpose as you wished – worthless.
But isn't basically all revelation "handed down"? For example, Sermon on the Mount could be called as the essence of the Christic revelation and it is a very authoritarian one at that if one wishes to follow Jesus.

Or did I misunderstand and you mean a revelation that is meant to be swallowed without a personal processing?
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