Fate and Karma

Rational discussions on metaphysical and abstract topics.
Angolmois

Fate and Karma

Post by Angolmois »

Last night I was in a dream in a gathering of mundane satanists where they laughed to some RHP sage whom I admired in the dream (he was a very high standard "lightful" being in the picture they showed int he gathering), and afterwards we talked with my brother and my old friend about fate and karma, where we all agreed that traditional satanists usually downplay karma and fate. In the end of the dream my friend said to me laconically "lets just pay this debt we have then", and he pointed especially to our bodies as vehicles of karma.

I have witnessed some statements from satanists that they don't believe or reject fate and karma, which are seen as impediments to human freedom and creativity. I see it the other way around: acknowledging the effect of karma and fate can lead to superior freedom where one is free to make adjustments in one's life according to one's karmic situation, and I don't see fate in the same way as fatalists do. Instead it leads to finding one's own fate that can have a real effect in one's own life in terms of spiritual freedom. Amor Fati is a very interesting concept that Nietzsche "popularized" and acknowledging fate can lead to fulfillment of one's life in the sense that one is lead into working into some specific direction that life is leading oneself. But I guess this already demands that one "believes" in fate in the first place, otherwise one is like a drifting seaweed tossing and turning in life's manifold situations.

How do you see karma and fate, and do you believe in them or not? Do they hinder your freedom as a human being? Can one become a "master of one's fate" by way of spiritual development?
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Insanus
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Re: Fate and Karma

Post by Insanus »

I think if there is meaningful action in the world, it comes from immediacy that contains past and future in it. There you can make real decisions. Freedom of choice is not that relevant here because it makes little difference whether you "choose" or "find" your dharma/true will/fate if it really pierces your whole being.
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Angolmois

Re: Fate and Karma

Post by Angolmois »

Insanus wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 3:40 pmFreedom of choice is not that relevant here because it makes little difference whether you "choose" or "find" your dharma/true will/fate if it really pierces your whole being.
I think there is no such thing as "choosing one's dharma", but in general I think finding one's fate is the sine qua non of occultism. in Ervast's words: "The whole of occultism is based upon the doctrine that there exists free beings." Of course this "freedom" is even more bound (to certain spiritual laws) than mundane "freedom" which is usually only the following of this or that impulse that comes from the lower parts of one's being.
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Polyhymnia
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Re: Fate and Karma

Post by Polyhymnia »

It is my understanding that within Nietzsche's idea of Amor Fati also lies the love of that fate, to such a degree that one would choose it over and over again.
I feel as though one couldn't truly come to this conclusion until they reach the end of their life and can evaluate it as a whole, but of course this is a luxury afforded to those who don't have their lives cut short. I suppose one can assume that Nietzsche's intended meaning would be that one achieves a peace within the suffering of life (I'm not very learned in Nietzsche, so please excuse and correct me if I'm off base) and that one could find value and perhaps even blessings within those hardships that are fated. I think that is perhaps as close as I feel one can get to becoming a master of their own fate.

A part of me doesn't want to believe in fate, as I don't like the idea of giving up that personal control, but most of me can't help it based on my life's experience. It's to the point where I seldom make hard plans for anything, because it feels as though fate guides my life regardless of how I feel about it, and there is always something beautiful that comes from all the doors that are closed against my will. Perhaps this is me surrendering to Amor Fati subconsciously, and from my choosing to accept and work with or around the situation I am gifted many blessings.
"Limited love asks for possession of the beloved, but the unlimited asks only for itself." -Kahlil Gibran
Angolmois

Re: Fate and Karma

Post by Angolmois »

Polyhymnia wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:51 pm It is my understanding that within Nietzsche's idea of Amor Fati also lies the love of that fate, to such a degree that one would choose it over and over again.
I feel as though one couldn't truly come to this conclusion until they reach the end of their life and can evaluate it as a whole, but of course this is a luxury afforded to those who don't have their lives cut short. I suppose one can assume that Nietzsche's intended meaning would be that one achieves a peace within the suffering of life (I'm not very learned in Nietzsche, so please excuse and correct me if I'm off base) and that one could find value and perhaps even blessings within those hardships that are fated. I think that is perhaps as close as I feel one can get to becoming a master of their own fate.
I think you're not at all off base. It is based upon the idea of eternal return, and F.N. also said that he will want to become "only a yes-sayer". The twist that occultism gives to this idea is the doctrine of pre-existence of the soul, so that everything one will experience in life is already decided before birth by one's Higher Self; and this links karma and fate together. Of course it is also true one creates also karma in life that is not pre-determined, but it may still be "chosen" by one's Self in pre-existence; it cannot be understood by way of linear logic. By the mastery of fate I think karma will need to be emptied so that one becomes truly free.
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Insanus
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Re: Fate and Karma

Post by Insanus »

Rúnatýr wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 5:31 pm
Insanus wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 3:40 pmFreedom of choice is not that relevant here because it makes little difference whether you "choose" or "find" your dharma/true will/fate if it really pierces your whole being.
I think there is no such thing as "choosing one's dharma", but in general I think finding one's fate is the sine qua non of occultism. in Ervast's words: "The whole of occultism is based upon the doctrine that there exists free beings." Of course this "freedom" is even more bound (to certain spiritual laws) than mundane "freedom" which is usually only the following of this or that impulse that comes from the lower parts of one's being.
Sorry, I was unclear. I meant that the experience of finding one's dharma is probably similar to making a complete commitment with one's life: when I said it makes no difference whether or not you choose or find, I didn't mean there'd really be unlimited options. I meant that when we really make up our minds about something (spiritually) important, the decision is made as if there was no option and to be able to make such a decision is a sign that you are actually on the right path.
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Re: Fate and Karma

Post by Angolmois »

Insanus wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 1:48 amI meant that when we really make up our minds about something (spiritually) important, the decision is made as if there was no option and to be able to make such a decision is a sign that you are actually on the right path.
OR on the wrong path! But yes, I agree.
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Re: Fate and Karma

Post by Peregrina »

I do believe in fate, but at the same time I accuse myself for not wanting to take responsibility of my decisions or giving in to schemas that are no more than psychological pathology.
Or perhaps I haven't yet learned how to tell fated events from those I create myself due to trauma etc.

It would be such a relief if there were no options: one wouldn't have to torment oneself endlessly regretting and doubting ones decisions.

The idea of fate might make it easier to accept hardships but there's a catch: you can also accept something you could change as inevitable and ask for trouble or prolong your suffering unnecessary.
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Re: Fate and Karma

Post by Nefastos »

Rúnatýr wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 10:23 amHow do you see karma and fate, and do you believe in them or not?

I do believe in them. To me, every interaction, every act of being is working out of karma: the basic universal law of cause and reaction in the matrix of oneness, ultimately transcending the seeming limit of time. There is nothing that is not completely bound my karma, since karma (literally "action") is what the world is. Of course, the karma of the innermost levels (of laya) is very different to what is the mechanical karma on the physical or emotional magnetisms. All these intertwine, like the subjective karmas also intertwine with that of the different collectives.

It is very hard for me to even understand the world views where people think they could act "freely", like causing suffering without bringing suffering to themselves by such actions. To me the whole concept seems impossible to understand, like saying that Mick Jagger paints the door with black paint but it somehow results in pink, with some roses on the sides.

Or to say it more clearly, I can of course understand what makes people think about such freedom. It is the slowness of the subjective time, and from that, one's self-identification with the mortal self. But that is the heart of profane life: thinking that "we only have this one life". That is simply false. We have all the lives in the world, interconnected most profoundly, both horizontally (different beings around us) and vertically (different depths of self), and in the dimension of time (our future selves that will reap our sowings, plus our past selves, which have sowed what we now reap).

Rúnatýr wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 10:23 amDo they hinder your freedom as a human being?

I wouldn't be a human being right now without such karmic causes and effects, so it would be weird to say that.

Rúnatýr wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 10:23 amCan one become a "master of one's fate" by way of spiritual development?

No. One can only reach to one's beautiful fate, or fall into one's ugly fate, or make some compromise between these two. The octave, so to say, can be chosen, but not what one is. It's pretty much the same as with astrology: if I have been born in the beginning of May, I will be Taurus my whole life, and nothing can change that. But what being a Taurus means can change dramatically in the different stages of life, according to how I understand myself and the world, and most essentially, how I work and how much I am able to love the whole and not only my temperamental reactions.
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Angolmois

Re: Fate and Karma

Post by Angolmois »

Thanks for the answer! Much appreciated.
Nefastos wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 9:42 am
Rúnatýr wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 10:23 amCan one become a "master of one's fate" by way of spiritual development?

No. One can only reach to one's beautiful fate, or fall into one's ugly fate, or make some compromise between these two. The octave, so to say, can be chosen, but not what one is. It's pretty much the same as with astrology: if I have been born in the beginning of May, I will be Taurus my whole life, and nothing can change that. But what being a Taurus means can change dramatically in the different stages of life, according to how I understand myself and the world, and most essentially, how I work and how much I am able to love the whole and not only my temperamental reactions.
This is kind of what I was hinting at by the mastery of fate and when I said that a "free being" is still bound by spiritual laws and even more so. In the way of the old hermetic axiom: "Wise man will rule the stars", instead of being ruled by them. I think it was Crowley who said that in an undeveloped man the things astrological apply, but no longer in a highly developed man since one has ascended beyond the confines of the "Archons".
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