How to Approach the Profane

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Angolmois

How to Approach the Profane

Post by Angolmois »

I know some people here don't like the word profane, but here I will use it to describe a completely worldly person with no conscious spiritual aspirations. For example: you meet a person educated into the scientistic mythology of our times, who openly or secretly is a nihilist, who believes we are no more than little evolved apes or cave men, for whom language is nothing but little evolved grunts, and who believes that the material world is a closed system, and for whom the concepts of the soul and spirit are a dead letter. How would you begin to talk about values, spirituality etc. without starting to theorize with difficult esoteric viewpoints? is the gap between spiritualists and such people too large to be breached?
Kenazis
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Re: How to Approach the Profane

Post by Kenazis »

Rúnatýr wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 7:45 pm I know some people here don't like the word profane, but here I will use it to describe a completely worldly person with no conscious spiritual aspirations. For example: you meet a person educated into the scientistic mythology of our times, who openly or secretly is a nihilist, who believes we are no more than little evolved apes or cave men, for whom language is nothing but little evolved grunts, and who believes that the material world is a closed system, and for whom the concepts of the soul and spirit are a dead letter. How would you begin to talk about values, spirituality etc. without starting to theorize with difficult esoteric viewpoints? is the gap between spiritualists and such people too large to be breached?
Why should I begin to talk about these if the person isn't interested them at all? Is there any other possibility than start from psychology (if this person doesn't see all psychological schools being as nonsense as spirituality)? One question might be "do you believe in any values?" & "what values are for you"?
"We live for the woods and the moon and the night"
Angolmois

Re: How to Approach the Profane

Post by Angolmois »

Kenazis wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 8:06 pm
Rúnatýr wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 7:45 pm I know some people here don't like the word profane, but here I will use it to describe a completely worldly person with no conscious spiritual aspirations. For example: you meet a person educated into the scientistic mythology of our times, who openly or secretly is a nihilist, who believes we are no more than little evolved apes or cave men, for whom language is nothing but little evolved grunts, and who believes that the material world is a closed system, and for whom the concepts of the soul and spirit are a dead letter. How would you begin to talk about values, spirituality etc. without starting to theorize with difficult esoteric viewpoints? is the gap between spiritualists and such people too large to be breached?
Why should I begin to talk about these if the person isn't interested them at all?
The assumption was that the discussion would somehow go into these areas or that you would have to present / defend your worldview.
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Re: How to Approach the Profane

Post by Kenazis »

Rúnatýr wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 8:13 pm The assumption was that the discussion would somehow go into these areas or that you would have to present / defend your worldview.
I would start discussion from values, (feeling of) meaning and purpose. And how these cannot be proven on "hard scientific" methods, but almost none can deny their existence. Maybe also the role of interpretation and understanding.
"We live for the woods and the moon and the night"
Angolmois

Re: How to Approach the Profane

Post by Angolmois »

Kenazis wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 8:29 pm
Rúnatýr wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 8:13 pm The assumption was that the discussion would somehow go into these areas or that you would have to present / defend your worldview.
I would start discussion from values, (feeling of) meaning and purpose. And how these cannot be proven on "hard scientific" methods, but almost none can deny their existence. Maybe also the role of interpretation and understanding.
That might do, but I'll take this idea play a little further still. Lets assume that your conversation partner is a hardened materialist and a militant atheist for example, and that he or she thinks only purposeful values are hedonism and unbridled egotism, and who would laugh to all your attempts at defining something like "values" objectively and would see in them only more refined egotism and selfishness and moral posing. If you'd have a sincere wish to try to expand his or her vision into something spiritual or soulful, what would be your approach? I think the first thing would not be to try to "awake" him or her rudely or share some esoteric knowledge or jargon, what would you think?
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Smaragd
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Re: How to Approach the Profane

Post by Smaragd »

Rúnatýr wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:08 pm who would laugh to all your attempts at defining something like "values" objectively and would see in them only more refined egotism and selfishness and moral posing.
If the situation would be so unwilling for understanding that it would go to ridicule, I'm not sure I'd bother, but if I'd sense some hint of earnest open challenge to both directions, the moral posing could be acknowledged to some degree, but I'd explain the intention, under a tool of idealism, to be in refining that selfishness to do something good and aiming towards further refinement where the selfish intentions get thinner and thinner until eventually gone from a certain area. I might challenge the other to try it with all earnestness one is capable of, and to observe closely how it works.

Furthermore I'd talk about the connection of idealism and ideas and challenge to comparative inspection between the word and meaning of "spirit" & "idea". I would not go too far explaining and leave it to the other to judge for themselves if they honestly have the will to understand and challenge themselves. We come back to the 5th principle in sevenfold basis of SoA.
"Would to God that all the Lord's people were Prophets”, Numbers 11:29 as echoed by William Blake
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Insanus
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Re: How to Approach the Profane

Post by Insanus »

Rúnatýr wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 7:45 pm I know some people here don't like the word profane, but here I will use it to describe a completely worldly person with no conscious spiritual aspirations. For example: you meet a person educated into the scientistic mythology of our times, who openly or secretly is a nihilist, who believes we are no more than little evolved apes or cave men, for whom language is nothing but little evolved grunts, and who believes that the material world is a closed system, and for whom the concepts of the soul and spirit are a dead letter. How would you begin to talk about values, spirituality etc. without starting to theorize with difficult esoteric viewpoints? is the gap between spiritualists and such people too large to be breached?
I would ask what does it mean that we are "no more than" evolved apes, what is it specifically he is denying.
I''d challenge the idea of a "world" - where does this knowledge of one complete system come from, and why is it so holistic?
I' d ask what is the value of rationality, why is it rational to "be rational" whatever it means to him.
I'd ask what is this "matter" and why is it so important and certain.

Hedonism and militant atheism are fine with me and nothing wrong with laughter, I'd just see if he is truly being consistent with his chosen faith.
Jumalan synnit ovat kourallinen hiekkaa ihmisen valtameressä
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Nefastos
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Re: How to Approach the Profane

Post by Nefastos »

Extremely good points from all the other answerers.

I'd add two possible points, the one of emphasized idealism, and another of unity. These are reconcilable opposites.

First, idealism.

The things I've found most precious to my life work on wholly different plane than the supposed profane "facts" our opposer herein uses. Such "facts" are not interesting to me ultimately. Instead, things that belong to my conviction of love, sincerity, upward struggle as the most important things (spirit), are so beautiful & important that it would not matter to me even if God himself would stand against those convictions. I am happier and more at peace with myself if I follow the spirit of love & honesty to failings, than if I follow the worldly "facts" of animal man into supposed prosperity. Of course I would like to have both, that is needless to say, but in case I have to choose, I choose the inner simply because to me it is more precious and real.

A funny thing is that this choosing of one's subjective conviction comes back to be in harmony with our supposed opponent's own message of the praise of self. Indeed, this is the point where the two opposite forms of Satanism – the ones of Church of Satan & the Star of Azazel – find their point of connection.

Secondly, unity.

This morning I woke up from a dream which had a good atmosphere; some tension was solving itself. How this was happening was that we had arranged it so that some enemy did have just what it needed: an easy, quick, fragile and pretentious way to fight us. Both of the parties were happy; the enemy, because it had its moment of fight it had longed for, and we ourselves, since the fight was made with so fragile equipment that it would result in no lasting damage. The dreamer's mind, my mind, was simultaneously on the side of "us", and also on the side of "everyone", and so I was very happy that our enemy was happy from the outcome, without doing to itself or to us any actual, hard to heal damage. So even while the situation was the one of fight, it was actually a complete victory regardless of outcome, for all energies collected to that fight were resolving themselves in the best way.

This dream depicts my mindset into several waking state meetings as well. Even if there is an opposer to our philosophy, we can try to see the metastructure: What that opposer actually is after? What does he want, in the true background of what he says he wants? In many cases there are possibilities to make our enemies to see some new approaches, in case we lay the discussion into a new angle. And even if what they ultimately want is to pick a fight, even that can sometimes be arranged with no heavy casualties.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Re: How to Approach the Profane

Post by Kavi »

Rúnatýr wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 7:45 pm I know some people here don't like the word profane, but here I will use it to describe a completely worldly person with no conscious spiritual aspirations. For example: you meet a person educated into the scientistic mythology of our times, who openly or secretly is a nihilist, who believes we are no more than little evolved apes or cave men, for whom language is nothing but little evolved grunts, and who believes that the material world is a closed system, and for whom the concepts of the soul and spirit are a dead letter. How would you begin to talk about values, spirituality etc. without starting to theorize with difficult esoteric viewpoints? is the gap between spiritualists and such people too large to be breached?
I am not sure if I have to speak about holy or profane in this sense. I could try to inform this person about languages in general, in scientific manner. These evolved grunts and symbol systems we use are somehow quite sophisticated and one can play and give new meanings with it. There's nice examples like where someone invites one for "a coffee". One should be quite a person not to understand that it really doesn't mean a cup of coffee. Although I bet it has happened for someone.
But in general I sympathize with this kind of attitude, for I think it might be because of tiredness or refusal to accept something. And that's okay.
But it's always good to ask before stating anything and making the person feeling being misunderstood.
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Smaragd
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Re: How to Approach the Profane

Post by Smaragd »

Insanus wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 2:10 am and nothing wrong with laughter, I'd just see if he is truly being consistent with his chosen faith.
Laughter is such an ambiguous expression or atleast it can be interpreted to have almost any meaning (even opposing ones) the observing party is ready to impress on it, that it’s kind of problematic especially in situations where there’s a strong dichotomy. But it also challenges to trust each other and the world around, which might not be so wounded as we oftent tend to see it from the perspective of our own wounds. Laughter sort of belongs to these situations of dichotomies as it’s almost like coming from the spirit above the two-foldness, who is laughing madly at the opposing poles separating from each other, as if they truly could do so. It is connected to the fear or ”the dweller on the threshold”, which the human being, whose mouth acts as the form of this laughter, can alter the tone of by managing to face that guardian and thus bringing the direction of the discussion in to more or less constructive direction. *Off goes me magnifying glass.*

Indeed I can trust much more in such situations if the other is truly being consistent with his chosen faith, and then I also start to see how there's not much difference in our "inner faiths", although the outer order of the thoughts and the world at large might allow us see things quite differently and understand how the world actually works.
"Would to God that all the Lord's people were Prophets”, Numbers 11:29 as echoed by William Blake
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