Symbology of the Chalice of Mount Argarizim

Symbols and allegories.
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Nefastos
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Re: Symbology of the Chalice of Mount Argarizim

Post by Nefastos »

Rúnatýr wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 12:58 pmThe reason I asked was because the central mythology is Jewish, symbolism used is Abrahamic, the entities invoked in the hymns are kabbalistic, and the central figure is from an orthodox exoteric point of view evil itself.
Rúnatýr wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 12:58 pmIf this is the most basic tenet, I really can't get my head around this one. I see Satan as an angel, not equal or the same as God. There is a hierarchy of Being.

How about taking these two problems as keys to open each other?

On one hand you say that for you the SoA philosophy seems as Abrahamic. On the other, you say that you cannot grasp how the most basic tenet can be the reversal of the role of Abrahamic God.

If these two are meditated intensely in the wide space of universal esotericism, the magical world view, it can happen that the lock opens, and from the seemingly Abrahamic puzzle box emerges something completely different, wearing quite a different face.

For neither is our Jesus the Christ of the Christians, nor our God the God of Jews, and our Satan is not the Satan of either. These are just the words to operate in the space where we lack other kind of deep enough cultural associative instruments to delve in the mystery of the Absolute, creation, and evil/suffering. In case SoA would operate in the culture which had no understanding of Abrahamic religions and their usual intuitive misunderstanding, the completely different terminology could have been adopted from the start. There would be no need to first introduct Christianity, Jewish faith or Islam to that culture to then build Azazelian philosophy upon such foundation. We could start straight away with talking about Shiva and Shakti, or the Taichitu, or whatever would be the instruments available at hand. The most important core of deconstructing the omnipotent patriarchal figure would adopt a different mask & different names, but the idea about joining the opposites in a certain way of ascension would still persist. The differences in forms would certainly have their effect on the whole outside of the brotherhood, but not its heart of being.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Smaragd
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Re: Symbology of the Chalice of Mount Argarizim

Post by Smaragd »

Rúnatýr wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 12:58 pm The reason I asked was because the central mythology is Jewish, symbolism used is Abrahamic, the entities invoked in the hymns are kabbalistic, and the central figure is from an orthodox exoteric point of view evil itself.
I have thought this outer form to make the exoteric side vital enough for Western practitioners and consistent enough to appeal to my sense of beauty and structure. The esoteric side on the other hand doesn't have to stick to the form, although it might have to be conscious of it and how it relates to the multicoloured process of individual soul.
Rúnatýr wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 12:58 pm
Nefastos wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 9:03 am Most likely the most basic theological tenet of the Azazelian religion, "God is actually Satan, and should be hated for that; & Satan is actually God, and should be adored because of that", would be too much for him to consider what is inside of such a seemingly monstrous ideology.
If this is the most basic tenet, I really can't get my head around this one. I see Satan as an angel, not equal or the same as God. There is a hierarchy of Being.
(Emphasis on the quote added by me.) I think here is a great example of how tantra has influenced SoA. While philosophical heights are important to reach as part of the mortification process, the individual practical, and perhaps more devotional, approach might ask for a different kind of process that takes the aspirant to a nuanced journey through ones own soul to its divine core. (I feel almost stupid writing this partly to yourself who seem to have much vaster base of written knowledge than I do, but perhaps some humble notions can point to relevant things.) Through deities in the lower forms, the sacred is reached in the forms that are relevant for ones own soul – the vital point is obvious to oneself, as long as enough purification work has been done with care (not only burning through cultural dead weight, but also understanding and processing ones own psychic structures of parental relations, relationships towards different sexes etc. as far as possible to set them more as archetypal points or sources of power, rather than falling with their imperfect and unprocessed forms one is imprisoned with). Thus a vitally perceived ”angel” can become the main deity for oneself through which the other aspects are reached. Satan is such a special character that it is rather easy to see it as God, but I guess any deity, when following its red thread in the depths, can be found to be ”the God”. For me personally, following and finding this depth is already ”Satan”, which leads me to think if this is just the Satanic cult nature in me to connect it so straight away with my God, but there’s some voices (perhaps belonging to this cult mentality) that are a bit skeptical wheter other Gods are as relevant. :D
"Would to God that all the Lord's people were Prophets”, Numbers 11:29 as echoed by William Blake
Angolmois

Re: Symbology of the Chalice of Mount Argarizim

Post by Angolmois »

Nefastos wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:51 pm On one hand you say that for you the SoA philosophy seems as Abrahamic. On the other, you say that you cannot grasp how the most basic tenet can be the reversal of the role of Abrahamic God.
To be precise, I asked if you consider SoA being Abrahamic heresy, and you answered how you see things. All I can say for my part that this kind of syncretism of widely different belief systems leads me only confused and gives me literally a headache. Maybe I'm just not enlightened enough.

I do understand the basic tenet but for me personally it seems as an error, since I don't equate Satan with God; for me they are distinct beings "in the great chain of Being", connected in essence yet separate in manifestation. Are we talking about the Logos or Absolute?
Nefastos wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:51 pm If these two are meditated intensely in the wide space of universal esotericism, the magical world view, it can happen that the lock opens, and from the seemingly Abrahamic puzzle box emerges something completely different, wearing quite a different face.
Perhaps I'm trying to figure this out with logic too much.

An anecdote from dreams: the night after I asked the question, I saw a dream where we were in a university class room, where you bursted out in diabolical laughter and then went to construct some kind of a mechanical chimney-like device.
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Nefastos
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Re: Symbology of the Chalice of Mount Argarizim

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Rúnatýr wrote: Thu Dec 31, 2020 9:39 amAre we talking about the Logos or Absolute?

Both, plus thirdly and most importantly – because only in its exoteric context the pejorative name "Satan" means something thoroughly evil – the theological presentation of God.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
Angolmois

Re: Symbology of the Chalice of Mount Argarizim

Post by Angolmois »

Nefastos wrote: Thu Dec 31, 2020 1:13 pm
Rúnatýr wrote: Thu Dec 31, 2020 9:39 amAre we talking about the Logos or Absolute?

Both, plus thirdly and most importantly – because only in its exoteric context the pejorative name "Satan" means something thoroughly evil – the theological presentation of God.
Ok! The way i see it, Satan as the first ray of creation / emanation, the center of the universal manifestation, is the "Veil of Absolute". As I see Saturn as the farthest reach of the cosmos in the septenary system, Sun being the Logos, of course they are one in essence, yet here also I see Satan as the "shadow of the Sun", the closest to the Logos yet distinct, angelic, cosmological essence. Generally I think we have only a slight doctrinal difference here. (By he way, you succeeded in the building of the chimney, while I tried to build it the wrong way up, so we can't also be sure if this is just my own patriarchal side trying to hold on to the old dualism - the "commanding self", the RHP side super-ego being too strong in insisting on this.) ;-)

Smaragd: Your way of putting things was so interesting and original, that I need to think it through before I can answer anything sane to it, but I'll get back to it.
Angolmois

Re: Symbology of the Chalice of Mount Argarizim

Post by Angolmois »

Smaragd wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 2:24 pm (I feel almost stupid writing this partly to yourself who seem to have much vaster base of written knowledge than I do, but perhaps some humble notions can point to relevant things.)
Curse the books. Curse them! I relate one reason for my schizophrenia - being a "psychic" and having a too impressionable mind - to the confusion that different sources have caused to my soul and psyche.
Smaragd wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 2:24 pmThus a vitally perceived ”angel” can become the main deity for oneself through which the other aspects are reached. Satan is such a special character that it is rather easy to see it as God, but I guess any deity, when following its red thread in the depths, can be found to be ”the God”.
I can understand that an aspect can become the main focus for oneself, but I can't understand how an aspect or a part can become the whole.
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Smaragd
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Re: Symbology of the Chalice of Mount Argarizim

Post by Smaragd »

Rúnatýr wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 6:48 am
Smaragd wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 2:24 pmThus a vitally perceived ”angel” can become the main deity for oneself through which the other aspects are reached. Satan is such a special character that it is rather easy to see it as God, but I guess any deity, when following its red thread in the depths, can be found to be ”the God”.
I can understand that an aspect can become the main focus for oneself, but I can't understand how an aspect or a part can become the whole.
I guess it might be a question of temperament whether such a way to see thing is beneficent, and might not be good to be hold strictly as the only perspective to look at reality. I can imagine it to be quite confusing and even dangerous to try to fit such views on oneself if it doesn’t come out naturally and in a balanced way. Anyway, the idea is that all truly archetypal powers seal each others within and in a sort of ”laymans” inner esoteric procession these different aspects in the "Cult God" reveals themselves, and the challenges concealed, one after another. The main divinity provides a vital link between all of these aspects and thus can be seen as the heartcenter bumping the blood. If one has found such a cult god that seem to have an endless stream of inner vitality, and remaining consistent enough in their practice, there’s the possibility of finding vital relation to the planetary spirits (I can not emphasise the meaning of this enough, words fall short) that otherwise might have been left distant and thus disrupting the balance.

This doesn’t have to break the hierarchical idea, it is just a fallen human perspective of reaching towards the small spark which after the a long struggle has reveled and lighted up the whole for the succeeded aspirant. (EDIT: Think about Jesus Christ ascending through the hierarchic spheres in Pistis Sophia, while the spirits of the spheres are baffled how someone can ascend from below and be of greater light than they are.)
"Would to God that all the Lord's people were Prophets”, Numbers 11:29 as echoed by William Blake
Angolmois

Re: Symbology of the Chalice of Mount Argarizim

Post by Angolmois »

Nefastos wrote: Thu Dec 31, 2020 1:13 pm
Rúnatýr wrote: Thu Dec 31, 2020 9:39 amAre we talking about the Logos or Absolute?

Both, plus thirdly and most importantly – because only in its exoteric context the pejorative name "Satan" means something thoroughly evil – the theological presentation of God.
I found this quote from Evola's 'Mask and face of Contemporary Spiritualism', where he discusses Satanism in depth:

"...the genealogy, if one might call it such, of Satan, is complex. The concept of Satan and of the principle of Evil finds place only in a religion which has as its vertex a "moralized" God, that is a God defined solely by everything which men hold to be good, luminous, creative, providential. Then whatever does not present such a character (and which, however, one must nonetheless acknowledge when considering various aspects of reality and of nature) might reunite, materializing and personalizing itself in an anti-God, precisely in the devil. However, in a metaphysical conception of the Principle, this dualism (which has had its clearest expression in the ancient Persian religion, in Mazdaism, with Ahriman opposed to Ahura Mazda) does not represent the extreme case. The supreme Principle dominates the "moralized" god, embraces also "the other half", both poles, manifesting itself both in the luminous and in the tenebrous, both in the creative and in the destructive, for which the Western and Christian concept of Satan gives place to that of another face of God. If by referring to such a vaster conception or theology, one defines Satan only as a destructive force, he would lose his tenebrous character, and would fall instead within a "dialectic of the divine". As an example one might adduce the Hinduistic conception of the Trimurti, the triple face of Divinity, from which is derived a cult of God as much a creator and conserver of the universe (Brahmâ and Vishnu) as a destroyer (Shiva). For which it is only with specific reservations that one might hold the characterization of the Satanic or of the diabolical to the terms of a destructive force alone..."
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