What does it mean to be spiritual / religious?

Rational discussions on metaphysical and abstract topics.
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Nefastos
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Re: What does it mean to be spiritual / religious?

Post by Nefastos »

So much important ground already has been covered by the answers given this far, that I try to glimpse some new approaches from Rúnatýr's secondary questions.
Rúnatýr wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 2:26 amreligious per sae.

It is indeed quite usual to deem religious and spiritual different things. I think we have Christian & al. false religious practices to blame. But are they actually "religion"? Or is that pretending religious bigotry or lip & eye worship similar to saying that one is "spiritual" if he follows the extremely shallow New Age doctrines mentioned by Kenazis?

This comes to personal preferences. Personally I like the word "religion" more than "spirituality", for the latter seems a bit more modern & carefree for my personal taste. Religion, ethymologically collecting & fastening into something (cf. yoking by & into something; similar to Sanskrit yoga), is hard, and actual spirituality is hard. I can't stand happy go lucky people, who always end up dancing their way upon other people's toes... :? (Someone slept only one hour last night & is cranky. :lol:)

Rúnatýr wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 2:26 amCertainly not the active participation in ceremonial ritual work, aye?

Yeah, nay. I even like the old mind road that makes all magic "black magic"; not in the sense that it should not be practiced, but in the sense that it joins to the material element in one way or the other. The way (ceremonial & other) magic is holy is the different way of holiness than actual innermost spirituality, that is ultimately formless aspiration & ability to shatter one's preferred form, when that becomes necessary.

Rúnatýr wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 2:26 amDo we again come to the ethics first? I think so.

Always; and if that starts to piss someone off, that person has most likely attached to the word ethics some extra burden that does not factually belong there.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Polyhymnia
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Re: What does it mean to be spiritual / religious?

Post by Polyhymnia »

Nefastos wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 6:31 am
Rúnatýr wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 2:26 amDo we again come to the ethics first? I think so.
Always; and if that starts to piss someone off, that person has most likely attached to the word ethics some extra burden that does not factually belong there.
Hahahah oops! This also describes my reaction to the word religion. I wonder if perhaps there is a cultural difference with the perception of the word as well that factors into my knee-jerk reaction. Maybe religious Canadians just suck more than religious Europeans.

In all seriousness though. I've never factored the depth of the work (self-discipline, constant aspiration to the truth) into the definitions of either of those words. This is a very eye opening topic.
"Limited love asks for possession of the beloved, but the unlimited asks only for itself." -Kahlil Gibran
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Soror O
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Re: What does it mean to be spiritual / religious?

Post by Soror O »

This here:
Polyhymnia wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 8:29 am Hmm, I think to be classified as spiritual the key tenet would be some form of ascension, or at the very least the belief in a higher form, whether it be intrinsic or external. A yearning for connection beyond what our human bodies can manage.
In my opinion the ascension implies to this "dying to the world" -phenomenon. Dying to the world is also the aspect of religion that is regarded being "dangerous" due to its revolutionary potential. This dying to the world is also being reborn to the world. Being reborn to the world is the actualization of spiritual potential. So being religious means inhabiting the liminal and paradoxical sphere, being torn in a harmonic dissonance. One just cannot take the (mundane) world seriously, yet it is even more serious than before.
Nefastos wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 6:31 am actual spirituality is hard.


How about fra Nefastos, what did you mean by hard?
If you want to reborn, let yourself die.
Angolmois

Re: What does it mean to be spiritual / religious?

Post by Angolmois »

Thank you all for a lively discussion. I'll try to get into specifics later on.
Ave wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 12:35 pmHow about fra Nefastos, what did you mean by hard?
Answering on Nefastos' behalf, I think if someone has an idea of spirituality / religion as some kind of a joyride to godhood, he / she is in for a rude awakening. Even if one is personally blessed with a good karmic situation, the suffering of the world will cloud one's days now and then.
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Nefastos
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Re: What does it mean to be spiritual / religious?

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Several writers mentioned the struggle for ascension – becoming gradually greater than an average flawed human being, until finally one can enter another kind or essence of being. Not flowing away with a UFO, nor committing ritual suicide (perhaps by sought after martyrdom), or anything like that. But becoming changed in a positive way, "born anew from above". This is actual initiation, being installed as a co-worker of actual Nature, which means God.

Such a mind-boggling accomplishment needs mind-boggling struggle of years & decades. And because the soul must be "hermetic", watertight against real downward path problems like cruelty, the pressure in the vessel becomes immense. One's own fire of upward struggle fans the flames, one's own collection into self makes them burn in a way that is unnoticeable outside but makes the process fruitful inside. This is what I meant by saying spirituality is necessarily hard in order to be true. Any kind of person can have spiritual moments that are opposite to hard, and that is extremely good. But to be actually spiritually inclined will mean that one is not at home in the present kind of reality, which "constantly burns" (Dhammapada) i.e. where people & nature hurt. The need to make the difference, while remaining as harmless as possible in the process, and in a way that keeps one's self & the otherness in careful balance in this, all the while struggling against both personal & collective angels (traumatic & elemental energies), will make almost the whole life as one long purgatorium.

Polyhymnia wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 7:23 amHahahah oops! This also describes my reaction to the word religion. I wonder if perhaps there is a cultural difference with the perception of the word as well that factors into my knee-jerk reaction. Maybe religious Canadians just suck more than religious Europeans.

I have never been to Canada, but what I hear, it really sounds like trans-Atlantic Christians tend to be more anti-intellectual than European? At least in our protestant countries the real hotheads are evangelicals outside the standard church, & the usual church-goers are just the typical dull & selfish people, whose interest in spiritualism is in whether they can have their weddings in a beautiful church.

But yeah, my unslept crankiness was really aimed only at the misconception of ethics. Every other term & idea can be manhandled by associations, and no much harm is usually done. But when one starts to roll his eyes to ethical demand, there is no much hope left for actual spirituality – only spiritism.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Aquila
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Re: What does it mean to be spiritual / religious?

Post by Aquila »

I think understanding ethics is the first step of overcoming the cultural level of repetition in a spiritual way. Yet here lies many possible ways of misunderstanding ethics in some political or otherwise biased manner. It has something to do with empathy which leads us to understanding of the otherness which is the whole world, anything that we don't understand or things that we oppose, whether it is familiar or close to us or not, can become "the other". For example, people whom we dislike or disagree with in a way or another. Certainly it does not mean that one has to be too acceptive to unethical behavior and attitudes but these situations do really put us to test.

Those are quite basic everyday issues. I believe people can have spiritual traits without acknowledging it. Maybe part of what we would call the upper triangle has been activated in them. Yet to be spiritual there has to be a level of finding (or searching for) meaning in the world and life. It's not that much about constructing meaning as in theories of social constructionism but in a very personal way of sensing the meaningfulness of everything. At this point, I would say, ones life can become spiritual. It easily turns into quite a struggle here as well which might seem somewhat paradoxical. There's a horrendous void of meaninglessness to be faced. Not only are people endlessly willing to prove the meaninglessness of everything but there will be lot of struggles within. We will be struggling to enlighten the darkness within but it becomes quite difficult in finding anything but superficial words to describe the process. Anyway, here is the point where we really either start to seek for the spiritual way or the opposite, or something in between, and there's still many detours to go, one of them might be the light-hearted new age way which can include a lot of willful ignorance but everyone has their own. Well, maybe not much more to add at this point. What tradition or way of spiritualism one finds the most suitable is not really the point here but the work that is being done within and how it translates into actions.

To be religious is simply to believe in something and having more or less structured way of finding union with the objects of faith. It might go hand in hand with spirituality but in cases where religion is merely a cultural way of doing things or believing in a dogma, there's many other problems that will arise but I'm too tired to write any longer here :)
Angolmois

Re: What does it mean to be spiritual / religious?

Post by Angolmois »

Aquila wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 1:12 pmI believe people can have spiritual traits without acknowledging it. Maybe part of what we would call the upper triangle has been activated in them.
This is something I was aiming at when starting the thread. I refuse to believe that most people would not have any spiritual or religious views that they take seriously, yet they are oftentimes buried under a baggage of everyday "normal life". Outwardly a very common man with an upright character can be in practice far more spiritual than some would-be-occultist who thinks the path lies in gathering theoretical knowledge and dabbling with ritual magic.
Aquila wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 1:12 pmAt this point, I would say, ones life can become spiritual. It easily turns into quite a struggle here as well which might seem somewhat paradoxical. There's a horrendous void of meaninglessness to be faced. Not only are people endlessly willing to prove the meaninglessness of everything but there will be lot of struggles within. We will be struggling to enlighten the darkness within but it becomes quite difficult in finding anything but superficial words to describe the process.
I have for long time said that it is no wonder why people shy away from actual spiritual life: it makes life even more complicated than it usually is, and one has to have very strong convictions, beliefs or spiritual experiences (that have illumined the way to some point) to continue the daily struggle. It is very understandable why people fall off from the path now and then, or even completely.
Mars
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Re: What does it mean to be spiritual / religious?

Post by Mars »

Rúnatýr wrote: Sat Dec 12, 2020 12:22 pmI refuse to believe that most people would not have any spiritual or religious views that they take seriously, yet they are oftentimes buried under a baggage of everyday "normal life". Outwardly a very common man with an upright character can be in practice far more spiritual than some would-be-occultist who thinks the path lies in gathering theoretical knowledge and dabbling with ritual magic.
I agree, this is what I meant when I wrote that occultism isn't necessarily spirituality. I do think that the upper triad can affect us as spiritual intuition in the form of ethics without us never reading spiritual books, uttering prayers or mastering meditation techniques. It is inconceivable to me that all the altruists in the world wouldn't be "spiritual" even if they were never interested in occultism, religion or spirituality.
Angolmois

Re: What does it mean to be spiritual / religious?

Post by Angolmois »

Mars wrote: Sat Dec 12, 2020 5:45 pmI do think that the upper triad can affect us as spiritual intuition in the form of ethics without us never reading spiritual books, uttering prayers or mastering meditation techniques.
I agree and this might be the converging point where humanism could turn into actual spirituality. There are many of those who can't even stand the word religion or spirituality yet in practice they might be more spiritual than those claiming the title.
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