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What Magic Means to You?
Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2020 9:23 am
by Nefastos
It is surprisingly hard to say what magic is or is not. Everyone has an idea, but since the word is so immense, every try to formulate it either becomes too sterile to mean anything, or factually inadequate. Characterizations which embody the thrill better usually overstress the human being's personal aspect (for example, one's often petty & deterministic desire) in the magical working.
Personally I would like to say that magic is the great power into which all other powers belong; but seeing it in everything becomes the more problematic the more exoterical one's world view is. One already needs to have quite a complex spiritual world view in order to see the uplifting possibilities in the "magic is the force uniting everything" credo.
Re: What Magic Means to You?
Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2020 10:33 am
by Insanus
My attempt at defining magic: magic is when subjective control over imaginary/mental/spiritual variables causes perceived effects in inner or outer intuition. The opposite of magic here is not non-magic, but the effect of magic.
Re: What Magic Means to You?
Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2020 8:35 am
by Nefastos
Insanus wrote: ↑Mon Nov 09, 2020 10:33 amMy attempt at defining magic: magic is when subjective control over imaginary/mental/spiritual variables causes perceived effects in inner or outer intuition. The opposite of magic here is not non-magic, but the effect of magic.
I like many parts of this. First, how it keeps the two regions (magic and effect of magic) in an "8" of sorts, in two intimately close circles. Second, how the objective world can be termed to be outer intuition. Such a way to say it bridges the usual problem about the subjective & objective worlds, for example the dream- or post mortem astral worlds as opposed to the physical one. All of these can be understood as manifestations as one's outer intuition.
I only have a slight problem with the word "control", although it is hard to avoid. For the human beings, it is indeed important to go "against the wheel" (the etymology of control), but not only it is even more important to go "according to the (greater) wheel", but it would make all magic black. Yet that could be said, in a way. Every being using the magic of his own kind will do that in "going against the wheel" of the greatest kind. But that would create an oxymoron of the very name of magic, which has its etymology in the "greatness", the oneness. If the greatest wheel of all is not magic, it does not seem valid. But perhaps we could say that this last wheel is the one that "goes against" the even greater wheel of absolute void? That last not-wheel is then pure abstraction.
Or, if we take the etymology even more literally, and the control is "going against the lesser wheel", then all magic would be uplifting. Not necessarily White, but at least building of one's Ego. This sounds right. It would also be in line with the old idea of making magic & mediumism (losing one's control to non-human entities) as opposites.
Re: What Magic Means to You?
Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2020 3:05 pm
by Angolmois
In individual esoteric practice I'd define magic as an intentional process of becoming a higher being by effecting Metanoia. But this is only one of the thousand other equally valuable definitions that don't exclude each other when going from universal to particulars.
Re: What Magic Means to You?
Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2020 11:18 pm
by Angolmois
I also subscribe to the thought of Magic as the Science of the Self.
Re: What Magic Means to You?
Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2020 11:34 pm
by Smaragd
Good question. To see magic and its effects as the opposites of each other, as Insanus put it, is joyously mind bending way to look at it. Although one may experience it is easy to see the objective world from the perspective of pantheist and animistic worldview, and similarly see the subjective world composed by the same divine factors in another scale, there is easily left space for such statement to feel a bit exotic and in that way distant from ones reality. Admittedly something that may ring distantly true but the personal realization lacks something to deeply acknowledge this. Nefastos’ words of seeing the outer world as ”one’s outer intuition” bridges the distance to some degree for me. For a seeker of truth the world remains endlessly open, and such openess can lead even to different kinds of overly emphasised open states that will not allow the seeker, for example, to rise above the knowledge and to actively wield the power. To see the objective world connected to the subjective in such an intimate way as to regard it ones own intuition, yet recognizing the differences of the subjective and objective so that the connection would not become corrupted, allows the opposites of the Sword and the Cup – the active and passive factors to become, indeed magically united.
The Sword and the Cup is a theme which also connects to the question of control Nefastos mentioned. Magic as balance and an act of these two instruments would be the ability to go according to the great wheel – control being the active manifestation of Will power according to the highest and thus most timeless center the magician has found within, and the Cup being the intermediator and feminine roundness, wholeness of the sensibilities to bring this timeless together with the timely conditions (perhaps this could be seen as uniting the powers of white and black magic, and the greater and lesser wheels). I just happened to watch
this documentary on J.R.R. Tolkien and these wheels reminded me of his views of the machine which seemse to be his word for black magic. There’s also a mention of the ring in
The Lord of the Rings representing the machine and coming very near to the idea of magic in this black sense.
Nefastos wrote: ↑Tue Nov 10, 2020 8:35 am
Every being using the magic of his own kind will do that in "going against the wheel" of the greatest kind. But that would create an oxymoron of the very name of magic, which has its etymology in the "greatness", the oneness. If the greatest wheel of all is not magic, it does not seem valid. But perhaps we could say that this last wheel is the one that "goes against" the even greater wheel of absolute void? That last not-wheel is then pure abstraction.
Through this we come to the first thought I have when thinking about magic. Magic is the whole phenomenal world and its supporting metaphysical structures, the intoxicating soma in the Cup and the Cup itself, Māyā etc, the objective and the subjective world. When all the magical liquid in the Cup has been sublimated, the world becomes void. I tend to think there’s still a timeless clock - the same greatest wheel going on in the background to mark the divinely intuitive moment (absolute void would spark from such a place that I have to use words like ”timeless clock” and the abstract enough ”intuitive” which are to suffice, for we are not able to point there properly anyways) when the next round is to begin.
Re: What Magic Means to You?
Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2020 1:08 pm
by Nefastos
Rúnatýr wrote: ↑Tue Nov 10, 2020 11:18 pmI also subscribe to the thought of Magic as the Science of the Self.
Taking magic as "something of something" is a good, aphoristic way to approach the deep question. In this case my most obvious choice would be that magic is "the philosophy of oneness". In a way this is just another aspect or emphasis to talk about the "Science of the Self", at least if we give to Self a Jungian or Oriental interpretation.
Smaragd wrote: ↑Tue Nov 10, 2020 11:34 pmThe Sword and the Cup is a theme which also connects to the question of control Nefastos mentioned. Magic as balance and an act of these two instruments would be the ability to go according to the great wheel – control being the active manifestation of Will power according to the highest and thus most timeless center the magician has found within, and the Cup being the intermediator and feminine roundness, wholeness of the sensibilities to bring this timeless together with the timely conditions
Just a moment ago, when I was doing a little meditative focusing after the noontime prayers, I had a clarifying vision about the unity of the poles within man. The sign of the Sun, when seen as three dimensional, makes the center point a vertical column, which is the axis mundi. I was contemplating how to manage a demanding phase of Work when in the sphere there is so much "feminine" worry (large amount of the need of help), but the vision gave the answer that regardless of that worrying, the centermost "masculine" point stands tall over the process, giving it permanent stability. These are the Shakti & Shiva, the Cup and the Sword.
Smaragd wrote: ↑Tue Nov 10, 2020 11:34 pmWhen all the magical liquid in the Cup has been sublimated, the world becomes void. I tend to think there’s still a timeless clock - the same greatest wheel going on in the background to mark the divinely intuitive moment (absolute void would spark from such a place that I have to use words like ”timeless clock” and the abstract enough ”intuitive” which are to suffice, for we are not able to point there properly anyways) when the next round is to begin.
This is the difficult metaphysical difference between the three first stanzas of the cosmogenesis of Dzyan.
Book of Dzyan wrote:. . . Where was silence? Where the ears to sense it? No, there was neither silence nor sound; naught save ceaseless eternal breath, which knows itself not.
The hour had not yet struck; the ray had not yet flashed into the Germ; the Matripadma had not yet swollen.
Her heart had not yet opened for the one ray to enter, thence to fall, as three into four, into the lap of Maya.
The seven sons were not yet born from the web of light. Darkness alone was father-mother, Svabhavat; and Svabhavat was in darkness.
These two are the Germ, and the Germ is one. The Universe was still concealed in the Divine thought and the Divine bosom. . . . (2:2-6)
Re: What Magic Means to You?
Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:48 am
by Angolmois
Nefastos wrote: ↑Fri Nov 13, 2020 1:08 pm
Rúnatýr wrote: ↑Tue Nov 10, 2020 11:18 pmI also subscribe to the thought of Magic as the Science of the Self.
In a way this is just another aspect or emphasis to talk about the "Science of the Self", at least if we give to Self a Jungian or Oriental interpretation.
Or a nordic / germanic one. (Sacrifice of the self for Self.)
I also equate Magic to the occult in general, and for me occultism means - mysticism aside for once - practical self discipline and a wholesome / holistic way of life. One of my practical generalizations for the occult would be "banging your head against the wall until you die or get enlightened".
Re: What Magic Means to You?
Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2020 8:43 am
by Polyhymnia
I've been thinking about this for weeks now.
Insanus wrote: ↑Mon Nov 09, 2020 10:33 am
My attempt at defining magic: magic is when subjective control over imaginary/mental/spiritual variables causes perceived effects in inner or outer intuition.
This is probably the closest to how I feel magic defined for me. Over the course of my life, I've had many wishes come true, for better and for worse. To me, that is also magic. This has happened many times, even without any kind of deliberate intent put into my words.
Bending energy with will for a desired outcome. Even just the belief that one is bending energy with will is often powerful enough to have an effect, as I saw growing up in a family that believed they had several black magic curses placed upon them.
Re: What Magic Means to You?
Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2021 11:57 pm
by Seferoth
Magic for me is knowledge of deeper things, something that is not obvious for others, magic can help you simply by learning it, not even by using it. It gives you perspective into things that otherwise is not readily seen or understood. It can also give you hope for a change. When everything else has failed, perhaps magic can make you succeed...in whatever it is you wish to succeed. Magic however can be dangerous and should never be used lightly...at least in my opinion.