Neuroatypicality - an esoteric view

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Soror O
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Neuroatypicality - an esoteric view

Post by Soror O »

As humans, we are not all wired in an identical way. (This notition - however - does not imply biological determinism on my behalf.) I'm interested how neuroatypicality - such as psychopathy, autism spectrum etc. - can be examined in the point of view of the spirit/soul. Also, It would be interesting to discuss how psychopathy (and other neuroatypicality) relates to the threefold key.

I was thinking particulary psychopathy and pondering could I for example date a person knowing he was a psychopath. Psychopaths lack of neurotypical empathy (among other traits) could be a bit of a dealbreaker. However, I came across with this consept of cognitive empathy, which means that a psychopath can experience empathy in a cognitive level without compassion. They know that the other person is going thourgh - for example - grief, but they don't feel grief (or anything else) themselves. Also, not all psychopaths act out in antisocial ways. Some of them can lead mentally sophisticated lives - though without neurotypical feelings.

Here is an interview of psychopath and her companion: https://www.thecut.com/2018/09/what-its ... opath.html

This lead me to ask whether buddhi consciousness could be achieved without neurotypical feelings, such as feeling-based empathy? What is really the spiritual function of feelings and emotions? The couple in the interview seem to be mentally well off, they seem not to contribute to other beings suffering.

To me these neuropathological consepts - such as psychopathy - seem to be such rigid labels. That's because I'm a spiritualist and an idealist. To me the idea that some people are just deemed lost causes is an unbearable one. It seems as if I have a calling of sorts to prove these labels wrong - or being falsely conducted. I know that this is potentially a dangerous ground.
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Re: Neuroatypicality - an esoteric view

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Often times my empathy (if it can be called that) isn’t the kind where emotions are obviously present. I may listen to the problems of a friend and start understanding where the pain comes from, and understanding these connections can be seen as functions of buddhi, but they do not always connect to actual emotions that fall under the larger concept of kama which is usually seen as lower correspondence of buddhi. The ”feelings” can be present in the two other points of the downward triangle: linga sharira (my energetic body becomes affected by compassion making me for example feel the other persons dissonance in my body, or as in those rational connections of when I understand why the other feels this or that way. The empathy becomes more real when I choose to get creative and thus participate in the problem. If some central place is reached in the confrontation , offering something to the problem, there is love present and from that love the dissonance of the problem is truly reached. What I mean to say is, it would be good to acknowledge that empathy that includes emotions isn’t always instant, and might ask for this kind of successes in confrontation to be revealed.

I wonder could psychopaths, or others who have trouble in this area, learn empathy with the following logic: having some sort of feelings guiding self-preservation if nothing else, it can be understood that the other person has these kinds of feelings too and when these connections in kama manas, under the influence of buddhi, have been practiced, it could be possible to start proceeding seeking guidance of buddhi from other areas of life, perhaps start to come more connected with ones own feelings. Important would be using the threefold key as a whole, because using just some of the principles easily ruins the practice by hypocrisy or the feeling of it becoming such.
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Re: Neuroatypicality - an esoteric view

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Smaragd wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 12:24 pmOften times my empathy (if it can be called that) isn’t the kind where emotions are obviously present.

I would even say that the feelings are not the most important part of empathy. They can even become a substitute for actual empathy. By "empathy" I mean most of all compassion, the living conviction of buddhic unity, which ardently seeks to help. To lessen the suffering of the world. Once discovered, this buddhic understanding is like an ever-burning torch. In case one confuses empathy as compassion and love with feelings, its outer veil, problems will arise.

Buddhi being one of the immortal higher principles (unlike kâma rupa, one's sum total of emotions), its love which is great empathy & living understanding of wholeness, integrity and unity of everyone, may remain apparently submerged and yet vital. For it is not as important what we feel, but what is the intent of our action.

Smaragd wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 12:24 pmI wonder could psychopaths, or others who have trouble in this area, learn empathy with the following logic: [...]

When the challenge has become part of the physical body, like neuroatypicality, one may draw the blueprints so to say, but the actual empathy (or another missing part) most likely comes available only in another reincarnation. Yet I certainly believe that even "lost cases" may & should work with these blueprints, and even "fake it till you make it". For it really is logical & reasonable to work in a way that helps the others being happier & suffer less, even when we ourselves would feel nothing about it. (Some people may even be selfish altruists: they help because they themselves get their kicks from being "good". This is not actual altruism or empathetic work of buddhi, but just another facet of kâma.)

Ave wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:14 amAlso, It would be interesting to discuss how psychopathy (and other neuroatypicality) relates to the threefold key.

Threefold Key as a demand of working & thinking in a certain way is unaffected by conditions, even though how we feel about that might change. A psychopath would need the Triple Key even more than others, for it becomes like a map for a person who does not know the place by heart. The same would be true for a very drifting or unenergetic personality or for a person who simply does not understand why one should strive for truth. All of these conditions – absence of vital âtmic, buddhic or manasic presence – can easily result from one simply being, for example, too happy to care. The situation is not totally different to psychopath's.

When it comes to the Hieroglyphic Key of the seven principles, pathological states can result from problems in the receiving end (lower triad does not respond to the higher principle, but the latter is there) or, more rarely, to actual missing of a source principle. I would guess the reason for neuroatypicality would most likely be the former, and so the channel to a "missing" principle may be found later (after death), when a karmic disturbance has been evened out.

Ave wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:14 amHere is an interview of psychopath and her companion: https://www.thecut.com/2018/09/what-its ... opath.html

A nice interview, even though the person sadly had to refuse answering some question. It is a very interesting thought, like you said, would a "romantic" relationship be possible with a psychopath for a person who is empathetic. Of course there are all kind of situations. But I'd think that mostly it would be a good choice only for a person who himself has some cold reasoning – because of any personal reason or temperamental thing – in the idea of relationship. Very uneven relationships tend to become harmful and twist one's willingness to help on the long run, or start to show some inner twist of such willingness. But, as said, there are endless different possibilities in relationships, so anything may be beneficent in a right situation.

Ave wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:14 amThis lead me to ask whether buddhi consciousness could be achieved without neurotypical feelings, such as feeling-based empathy? What is really the spiritual function of feelings and emotions? The couple in the interview seem to be mentally well off, they seem not to contribute to other beings suffering.

Buddhi can be dormant because its channel as felt compassion is missing, but most likely it is there, and can be acted out all the same. When I am very tired, I often remember Ervast's teaching that one must be able to work like a robot. Doing good does not always feel good, or anything at all. It is simply a duty. A psychopath may cultivate this kind of attitude & work well without feeling anything. We may recall that in Sanskrit literature "buddhi" is the core of intellect, not feeling. Ethics therefore always become as a choice, and not something that is felt. Every person walking either the path of ascension or the downward path will at some point face the situation that he does not "feel" anything about his path: different reason for walking the chosen path (of compassion or the lack of it) must be taken instead.

Ave wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:14 amTo me these neuropathological consepts - such as psychopathy - seem to be such rigid labels. That's because I'm a spiritualist and an idealist. To me the idea that some people are just deemed lost causes is an unbearable one. It seems as if I have a calling of sorts to prove these labels wrong - or being falsely conducted. I know that this is potentially a dangerous ground.

Labels are always cultural & may change with new discoveries in science, trends in morals, and so on. They mean very little. Many things that are "lost causes" in our exoterical world view are not so in esotericism. The Work that expands longer than one life gives the whole thing a very different shading.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Re: Neuroatypicality - an esoteric view

Post by Soror O »

Thank you for your important insights fra Smaragd and Nefastos.
Nefastos wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 9:47 am
When it comes to the Hieroglyphic Key of the seven principles, pathological states can result from problems in the receiving end (lower triad does not respond to the higher principle, but the latter is there) or, more rarely, to actual missing of a source principle. I would guess the reason for neuroatypicality would most likely be the former, and so the channel to a "missing" principle may be found later (after death), when a karmic disturbance has been evened out.
Yes, this is pretty much what I was trying to formulate in my mind: if one variable in the Hieroglyphic Key is dormant (such as feelings/ kâma rûpa) how does it affect to the prospects of the soul in a whole. Like you said, the potential correspondence of the lower and higher triads is then disturbed in this lifetime/form. But like you implied, the soul as a whole is not - in the end - defined and limited by this particular (karmic) form. Therefore it's important to keep on with the work - regardless of feelings and thoughts. This was an important reminder to me as I tend to rely too much on my feelings. Which leads me to the following, vague (kitchen psych) though: maybe the empaths (people who are emotional, and automatically aligned what others feel and tend to feel other people's feelings) are folks who's kâma rûpa is overactive or something. And then narcissists - those demons in flesh, lacking autonomic self - tend to feed themselves off from empaths' unbalanced kâma rûpa. They use empaths' excess emotion as as a supply for their self's existense, and also fuel that emotionality even more, usually with mind games and other subtle violence (it has to be subtle, in order to be efficient) - and implant their own (unconscious) feelings into them. Maybe being an empath should also be regarded as neuroatypicality - for it is a chronic state of emotional/neurological hyper-arousal.

Fra Smaragd's description on how he formulates his empathy had a wholesome taste to it. Even more so, because my feeling based empathy has got me into trouble many times. My feeling based empathy has been loaded with unconscious pity and quilt - incredients that have nothing to do with real empathy or buddhi consciousness. Also, my feeling based empathy has failed me in times I haven't been able to feel empathy. Then again, compassion is derived from the words "together" and "suffer". Compassion is to suffer together. But this suffering is really more that a feeling. It is a state, a notion, an insight. Then compassion is a shared insight to human (and organic) condition. We all suffer. We suffer as all. Therefore: we are redeemed as all.
Nefastos wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 9:47 am
The Work that expands longer than one life gives the whole thing a very different shading.
Yes... If one would ask, why I'm an esoteric I'd answer, "that's where I logically ended up when I kept asking." And still I haven't ended up to anywhere.
If you want to reborn, let yourself die.
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Re: Neuroatypicality - an esoteric view

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Ave wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 11:38 pmIf one would ask, why I'm an esoteric I'd answer, "that's where I logically ended up when I kept asking." And still I haven't ended up to anywhere.

This is a wonderful way to put it. Although I personally believe (and have experienced, or so I claim) that there are things that, after long accumulation of work, become like sediments & at last even visible (to oneself!) mountains of achievement. Even though the fundamental miracle of existence will remain unexplained, there are things – things very unlike the usual exoteric way of thinking how & what life is – that are proven to be valid. Like the truly magical experiences of either black (astral) or white (buddhic) magic. They cease to be hypotheses, like the one who has been in an aeroplane cannot really say that people cannot fly through air from one continent to other. (Or, one may, but such a state of skepticism would be a form of insanity in itself.)

Ave wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 11:38 pmYes, this is pretty much what I was trying to formulate in my mind: if one variable in the Hieroglyphic Key is dormant (such as feelings/ kâma rûpa) how does it affect to the prospects of the soul in a whole.

I consider this to be one implication that there are, like you said, "dormant" principles present in the system: this is why the human being is capable of working at all. If there would be a total void where one "organ" should be, the whole inner anatomy would collapse. While this also may sometimes be possible (in such a case one is already a living corpse, a vampire or something like that), it is so extremely rare that e.g. I think I have never seen such a (not-)person in my life. Even when we have serious flaws in our constitution, and are obviously pathological, there usually are some abstract sparks from the source principles present, and they make an overall functioning human being possible. And when we stop to ponder how almost hopelessly pathological nearly every single human personality is, in our own diverse ways, the abyss between a "lost case" and the one apparently healthy enough gets much smaller, possibly narrow enough to jump over in many cases.

Ave wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 11:38 pmMaybe being an empath should also be regarded as neuroatypicality - for it is a chronic state of emotional/neurological hyper-arousal.

Sounds right to me. Like Blavatsky said, "good things can sometimes come through a bad channel". Or, like shamans or even yogins are sometimes interpreted: to be persons who are "unfit" for any other kind of living, and must therefore become like living conduits between the world of matter & the world of spirit. Becoming "a wounded healer" can result from a state of being that is, at least from the modern perspective, hypersensitive to a pathological degree. Yet this is not enough: like I wrote in Polyharmonia, most potential adept disciples end up in mental asylums, or suicides. Simply being an empath is not enough, it yet must be endured in a way that gives & keeps giving. Only person who sometimes may choose not to endure & still remain in a dharmic sphere of action is artist, and being an artist is not the same as being a magician.
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Re: Neuroatypicality - an esoteric view

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Nefastos wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 2:23 pm Only person who sometimes may choose not to endure & still remain in a dharmic sphere of action is artist, and being an artist is not the same as being a magician.
Many artists as personae seem to be strangely divorced from the higher points of their work.

I just read here of a brave soul's personal prayer, asking to be tried. Whilst I have found myself for some time now in a disposition, where my personal prayer is short but strained "Miserere, Miserere, Domine", there is a mercy in art. As an occultist experiencing hardship, to be able to concentrate more of one's energies into art can truly be a bridge over troubled waters.
One day of Brahma has 14 Indras; his life has 54 000 Indras. One day of Vishnu is the lifetime of Brahma. The lifetime of Vishnu is one day of Shiva.
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Re: Neuroatypicality - an esoteric view

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Nefastos wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 2:23 pm
Ave wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 11:38 pmIf one would ask, why I'm an esoteric I'd answer, "that's where I logically ended up when I kept asking." And still I haven't ended up to anywhere.

Even though the fundamental miracle of existence will remain unexplained, there are things – things very unlike the usual exoteric way of thinking how & what life is – that are proven to be valid.


Yes, I agree. My attitude of not ending up to anywhere is purely a practical means to cut the edge from my own spiritual hubris and false sense of accomplishment. I'm not a nihilist, nor an agnostic.
Nefastos wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 2:23 pm
If there would be a total void where one "organ" should be, the whole inner anatomy would collapse. While this also may sometimes be possible (in such a case one is already a living corpse, a vampire or something like that), it is so extremely rare that e.g. I think I have never seen such a (not-)person in my life. Even when we have serious flaws in our constitution, and are obviously pathological, there usually are some abstract sparks from the source principles present, and they make an overall functioning human being possible.
Yes. Again, this made me think about the malignant narcissist. It has been generally thought that in it's core pathological narcissism stems from a lack of proper attachment with the caregiver (The Mother). The Mother is unable to mirror the child adequately enough and/or is abusive/avoidant towards the child, so the child turns away from the Mother and cuts off the Mother and attachment (and in this process creates the false self). Yesterday I was listening to Sam Vaknin's ideas of narcissism (he himself is diagnosed). His opinion was that the child cannot choose to be un-attached with the mother - whether the mother is absent/abusive or not. So really we don't have a choice but to attach (make connections) even though the connection will distroy us (before we are even born as a self). Sam Vaknin says that narcissism stems from the attachment to the Dead Mother (ie. abusive/absent mother). So there is this organ of attachment and connection - we cannot cut it off even if there is no good-enough object to connect with. Sam Vaknin himself describes narcissist as living dead people. I have known one full-blown narcissist in my life (my dad), and in his case I have to agree. But still I'd also agree with the notion that in this case there were these abstract sparks which were cracking from the seams of this living dead superstar. Maybe these empty-at-the-core personalities can appear even more "heavenly" as there is no real or solid personal substance which would dim the otherworldly shining, I don't know (this is bs!). Or maybe his otherworldlyness were but a mere fantasy of a child (who saw her father as a god).

Another thing about narcissist which would be interesting from the point of view of esoterism. Vakning argued that narcissist's relationship are build upon mortification. The narcissist connects only with dead/absent objects. So in their close relationship they prey upon their significant other's vitality and Being in order to re-create them as the Dead mother. That's why narcissistic abuse is (by Vaknin) regarded as the most fatal type of abuse: the victims whole Being is the pray. Narcissists seek to kill you - if not in a concrete/physical level, then on a mental level. "If you don't kill me, I'm gonna have to kill you", sang Peter Steele (relatably).

Last couple of days I've been contemplating my own narcissist traits, I've also been drawn to love the dead and the absent (in the past). I don't consider myself solely a narcissist - nor borderline or psychopath, even though I carry traits of them. (Rather, my personality is quite fragmented.)
Nefastos wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 2:23 pm
Simply being an empath is not enough, it yet must be endured in a way that gives & keeps giving.
Any ideas on the enduring? No, one must not have! (I must not have.) All ideas are falsely comforting. One must endure the endurable, "and half smile is always nice" (as one yoga teacher said).
If you want to reborn, let yourself die.
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Re: Neuroatypicality - an esoteric view

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Ave wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 3:28 pmYes. Again, this made me think about the malignant narcissist.

Blavatsky spoke of the soulless people (I think it was in her Esoteric Instructions) that those who yearn after their higher selves may re-attach the connection with them. Here we have the two types of narcissists, I think: those who have lost their principle of the Soul (buddhi and with it, empathy as true compassion), and those who have only lost their connection to it, so buddhi remains but is dormant. In the latter group, rekindling is possible, albeit one will have to wait after bodily death for the ability of compassion to become once more apparent.

What follows is the similar situation to the two kinds of people who are able and unable to pray. Like Iamblichus said, those are able to yearn after divinities are already blessed by those divinities: they have the divine spark in them, and by that spark, they are able to see prayer as meaningful. I do not mean that atheists are like narcissists, but instead mean that there either is or is not a need to make a connection. It is somewhat weird to think that a truly soulless person could yearn after his absent soul. More likely, such a person would be intellectually relieved. (I actually wrote a short story about such a destiny once.) For being empathetic is to suffer. Thus, divine presence is like a curse, even though it is the most precious gift we have.

Ave wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 3:28 pmIt has been generally thought that in it's core pathological narcissism stems from a lack of proper attachment with the caregiver (The Mother). (...) the child cannot choose to be un-attached with the mother - whether the mother is absent/abusive or not.

Just the last night I was thinking about this motherly love as the possible root for all humane love & empathy, when I was reading about evolution:
Dougal Dixon wrote:[The primates] first appeared in the Palaeocene forests and soon became adapted to tree-living life, with hands and feet evolved for gripping, eyes that could judge distances, and a reproductive strategy that involved a small number of offspring that were carefully looked after.

Ave wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 3:28 pmI have known one full-blown narcissist in my life (my dad), and in his case I have to agree. But still I'd also agree with the notion that in this case there were these abstract sparks which were cracking from the seams of this living dead superstar. Maybe these empty-at-the-core personalities can appear even more "heavenly" as there is no real or solid personal substance which would dim the otherworldly shining, I don't know (this is bs!). Or maybe his otherworldlyness were but a mere fantasy of a child (who saw her father as a god).

Even though narcissism is the far end of this dead pool, there is a narcissistic streak in any communication that apparently agrees (usually silently) with killing. Some time ago I whipped in the Finnish forum side the usual tendency of human beings to want their prophets dead instead of living, for it is always much more appropriate to prostrate oneself before something that is unable to voice his or her opinions anymore. In only a bit lesser degree the same is true with all those living idols who are too distant to be considered living persons anymore. The word "idol" itself means something not-living: a dead or undead picture, eidolon that is a model (instead of soul) of beauty. While the problem is common to all kind of religiosity & (")spiritualism("), it is most prominent in Judeo-Christian faiths. Consciously chosen Azazelian faith is supposed to be the opposite & the end of this kind of attitude, but we shall see.

Ave wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 3:28 pm"and half smile is always nice"

See our brotherhood's seal...
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Re: Neuroatypicality - an esoteric view

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Nefastos wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 4:52 pm
Blavatsky spoke of the soulless people (I think it was in her Esoteric Instructions) that those who yearn after their higher selves may re-attach the connection with them. Here we have the two types of narcissists, I think: those who have lost their principle of the Soul (buddhi and with it, empathy as true compassion), and those who have only lost their connection to it, so buddhi remains but is dormant. In the latter group, rekindling is possible, albeit one will have to wait after bodily death for the ability of compassion to become once more apparent.
This feels truthful to me. My father yearned to die, as he'd sense that it would require just that to be reunited with his true self (this kind of relates to all of us, I think). After he died, I felt like he was being more like himself. He is really being, the agony is gone, there is only pure love. (Of course I feel also haunted by him, but it is really him. Rather it's his earthly memory and my own mind which is hauting me - and the entities that are feeding themselves off from my (unconscious) terror, ie. demons.)
Nefastos wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 4:52 pm [ It is somewhat weird to think that a truly soulless person could yearn after his absent soul. More likely, such a person would be intellectually relieved. (I actually wrote a short story about such a destiny once.) For being empathetic is to suffer. Thus, divine presence is like a curse, even though it is the most precious gift we have.
Yes, praying is an act of certain humbleness and genuine vulnerability (which are difficult to experiece with (too) pathological minds).
Nefastos wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 4:52 pm
Just the last night I was thinking about this motherly love as the possible root for all humane love & empathy, when I was reading about evolution:
Dougal Dixon wrote:[The primates] first appeared in the Palaeocene forests and soon became adapted to tree-living life, with hands and feet evolved for gripping, eyes that could judge distances, and a reproductive strategy that involved a small number of offspring that were carefully looked after.

Through motherly love we come into being.
Nefastos wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 4:52 pm
Even though narcissism is the far end of this dead pool, there is a narcissistic streak in any communication that apparently agrees (usually silently) with killing. Some time ago I whipped in the Finnish forum side the usual tendency of human beings to want their prophets dead instead of living, for it is always much more appropriate to prostrate oneself before something that is unable to voice his or her opinions anymore. In only a bit lesser degree the same is true with all those living idols who are too distant to be considered living persons anymore. The word "idol" itself means something not-living: a dead or undead picture, eidolon that is a model (instead of soul) of beauty. While the problem is common to all kind of religiosity & (")spiritualism("), it is most prominent in Judeo-Christian faiths. Consciously chosen Azazelian faith is supposed to be the opposite & the end of this kind of attitude, but we shall see.
It's easy to "love" a gagged God - not so easy to love a God which voices himself through the variation of human voices.
Nefastos wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 4:52 pm
Ave wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 3:28 pm"and half smile is always nice"

See our brotherhood's seal...
That expression is also known as narcissist smirk. 8-)
If you want to reborn, let yourself die.
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Re: Neuroatypicality - an esoteric view

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Ave wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 9:44 am
Nefastos wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 4:52 pmSee our brotherhood's seal...

That expression is also known as narcissist smirk. 8-)

Not from a deity! :lol: Of course I can (and have) interpret god as a great narcissist & the greatest solipsist, but unlike when dealing with people, there is an inner meaning in these apparent violations of love. If we fail to understand that, we fall into the ancient folly of anthropomorphic God. The prohibition to make images of God (when taken in an occult sense) does not mean to ban outer images, but inner: we can paint or sculpt whatever kind of picture, as long as we understand it as symbolic. But in case we have in our heads or hearts the idea of a man-like God, that is the ultimate sin. Yet it is not easy get rid of that kind of thinking, and – the strangest thing as it is to say it – atheists seem to be most eager from all the people to fall into this folly. The same is true with many downward path types: they struggle & fight against some humongous heavenly father and/or mother, not fully understanding the scope of their infantile projection. Even today there are people who take Gnostic parables of the demiurge literally.

The seal of the brotherhood takes its double countenance from the old idea of Christus Pantocrator, to which "Azazel Pantocrator" (as depicted in the seal) is a complementing mirror image.
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