Incel - personal perspectives

Putting together ones life with the modern world.
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Polyhymnia
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Re: Incel - personal perspectives

Post by Polyhymnia »

Cerastes wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 10:43 pm Sexual frustration has the potential to damage physical and mental health to such a degree, that it should not just ignored on a collective level. But since the effect is very different from person to person, there is very little understanding.
I'm weird about sex (still! I wish I wasn't, but I've been too nervous to follow through with seeking professional help like I've spoken about in previous threads), so I didn't think I would have anything of value to contribute to this thread, but this strikes a chord with me. Sexual frustration in relationships, even in long term relationships where the sex flows freely, is also a weird and real issue, as was stated, but for another reason too. Probably many reasons. In my experience it's almost an overwhelming Mars energy that feels very suffocating (the partner who needs the sex for selfish purposes) and it's as though it suffocates this Venus energy (men are from mars, women are from venus, AMIRITE) and completely upsets the balance needed to truly enjoy or desire sex. Even within a good relationship that's harmonious in many ways. A spiritual connection is nice, but I think what I desire is a gentleness in nature. Not a gentleness in the act itself, but just a softer energy. I've had sex with both men and women and enjoy both for different reasons, but I definitely crave that feminine energy.
"Limited love asks for possession of the beloved, but the unlimited asks only for itself." -Kahlil Gibran
Tulihenki
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Re: Incel - personal perspectives

Post by Tulihenki »

Polyhymnia wrote: Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:32 amI've had sex with both men and women and enjoy both for different reasons, but I definitely crave that feminine energy.
Same here (I'm a man).

I have lived without sex maybe one year now as I have been thinking and occasionally struggling with my sexuality and feelings for men especially. With women I seek balance and equality but with men I wanna tear those bastards down when my interests towards 'em and feminine side rises. It's like giving them to control over me while they don't actually control anything. This side of me is lot more powerful than anything in me and I believe that through this side I have found my fire back which fainted for years.

But sex or not having it. I have been avoiding it maybe for fear of myself or fear of devouring someone. Still it burns sometimes so much and I'm not sure should I ignite that fire to more vast flame or what. I also crave a nice woman to balance me and be generally together, but I have not found anyone. I just lure men into me whom I reject. Sort of contolling over them that too.

No wonder I have placed my Kali statue in my home near to be seen.
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Smaragd
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Re: Incel - personal perspectives

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Ave wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 2:55 pm 5. Adjusting my mindset: if i could just transform the "involuntary" to be experienced as "voluntary", as if I'm choosing this. But it just doesn't feel truthful.
I know you already came to some conclusions, but I’m answering because I need to process these thoughts myself. After failed relationships where love and understanding towards the other have not been reached properly, I’ve rather tried to adjust my views on the ”4. Finding a new relationship: I don't control all of the variables here.”
I’ve asked myself and tried in practice what variables are we able to control or rather have some say to, to built further to something I’ve not yet understood in the mysteries of romantic love. How much can we allow ourselves to be conscious of things that lures us and gives rise to the magnetic pull? I don’t think attractions to form (whether we’re talking about forms of the body or the psyche) are automaticly bad or something to be totally ignored, but it isn’t nearly enough for me to be truly interested in someone. Thinking about these things, I’ve actually come to be more affectionate towards the quality of spiritual aspiration one carries, and the overall capability for love i.e. the ability to see and respect who the other is and the other way around (connection is automatic because seeing to such depths is almost like seeing to and the Love in him/her). It has been a kind of journey in questioning and burning through some of the clingings to form I’ve unnecessarily held within the area of relationships. This I have not done thinking that severing connections to forms would be automaticly a good thing, it can be bad and harmful too, but I have done this because it seems to be something the Master asks from me to be able to form a fruitful relationship, where it would be possible to go through basic challenges. The burning in practice has been largely about self-reflection regarding past relationships (leading me to find answers to questions like where I want to base my future relationship, what am I doing wrong failing in relationships etc.) and this has also perhaps allowed me to burn some of that base energy that otherwise would turn in to sexual frustration. There is some frustration for sure, but mostly I’m directing that energy in to the burning process described above, and creating new connections. Even if those new connections would turn out to have gaping problems for example in communication, I try to work through them in the most constructive and loving manner I can (which can be many things but still always has that respect of otherness), to build my way through the challenges. This process that is very much creative, might be close to the abundance mentioned.

Being out of romantic relationships for a while now, I have caught myself less and less longing to some specific fantasies or sex in general. Libido is just a power that usually awakes all by itself without me thinking or obviously longing for sex. But I know it’s not a triumph of a purification process, but only partial success in channeling the energies to protect me from exploding in a way that would cause the build up to further lack of confidence and frustration with the opposite sex (earlier mentioned in the discussion). I actually feel surprisingly good now thanks to the work done after the last crash landing of a romantic relationship. Also this one being the shortest romantic relationship of my adult life tore me away from somekind of pipe of emotional connections building up through months and years to extremes of fancy, heartbreak and disappointment. Feels like semi neutral ground here, after some processing has been done.
Tulihenki wrote: Wed Aug 12, 2020 1:30 pm But sex or not having it. I have been avoiding it maybe for fear of myself or fear of devouring someone. Still it burns sometimes so much and I'm not sure should I ignite that fire to more vast flame or what. I also crave a nice woman to balance me and be generally together, but I have not found anyone. I just lure men into me whom I reject. Sort of contolling over them that too.

No wonder I have placed my Kali statue in my home near to be seen.
Interesting to see these familiar feminine(?) challenges in a man. Gives a new perspective to observe them in a semi objective way, which could help untangling them. I have been the masculine side in a relationship where these problems seemed to be in my interpretation emotional of nature and exactly the kind fra Insanus pointed:
Insanus wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 4:38 pm I have experienced intense sexual frustration even in relationships where sex has been regular, because it has been used as a substitute for dealing with all kinds of emotional blockages and difficulties.
I feel like sex is (or it should be) about intimate sharing of some fundamental romantic fantasy, but it can easily just pretend to be that.
Sex "means" that I'm loved, that I'm me, that I get what I want, that I have an intimate connection, this-and-that and thousand other things, except if it doesn't, and then the all-too-human solution is to try to have more sex that's deeply unsatisfying to create what's not there and then it pushes people apart. :D horrible.
Kavi wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 4:03 pm Also I used magic to get partner and it wasn't worth it. There is some kind of trickster mentality and "question mark" in this kind of practice in my opinion. The outcome can be anything and sometimes exactly what you wanted but you formulated the wish in vague form and got exactly that.
This reminded me when a friend asked if I've considered to use magic to find someone special. I started to explain to her all the problematics of ethics in a really long way. She then laughted at me saying she meant the kind of kitchen magic where one would make way for that special someone to enter my life. For example, I could clear some shelves as a symbolic gesture for the other to have space in my apartment. That could for example turn ones focus away from the anxiety and bad self-confidence, and towards more allowing mental space. It feels like it wouldn't be as manipulative way either, or how do you see it?
"Would to God that all the Lord's people were Prophets”, Numbers 11:29 as echoed by William Blake
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Peregrina
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Re: Incel - personal perspectives

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What do you think of open relationship or polyamory as an answer to sexual frustration? Or in general?
What kind of astral/energetic challenges there might occur?
Emotional challenges like jealousy and the effort it takes to maintain two or more intimate relationships are widely discussed, but the effects of these kinds of relationship forms to the energetic bodies of the participants are unknown to me.
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Smaragd
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Re: Incel - personal perspectives

Post by Smaragd »

Peregrina wrote: Thu Aug 13, 2020 9:58 am What do you think of open relationship or polyamory as an answer to sexual frustration? Or in general?
What kind of astral/energetic challenges there might occur?
Emotional challenges like jealousy and the effort it takes to maintain two or more intimate relationships are widely discussed, but the effects of these kinds of relationship forms to the energetic bodies of the participants are unknown to me.
I have seriously considered this when the bangs of hunger how reached acute surface levels, but it wouldn’t asnwer the romantic needs of mine. It would be more about sex and platonic relationship loosing the romanticism in the middle. There’s more intimate levels accessible for me when the relationship is consecrated between the two polarities. A third person would cause the energetics to be infinitely more complex and prone to be misdirected. For example let’s say I’d have some intense challenges within a polyamorous relationship. The intensity of seriously taken occult path would demand this challenge met between the two, but as the energetic charge becomes so strong and polyamorous relationship allows such a free form for these charges to be channeled elsewhere, it would ask extremely good conscious capabilities for the other not to vent the steam out somewhere else. If venting would happen, that would mean she has releaved herself of the burden of the challenge, and I would be left with mine without true confrontation. This might as well be a problem in a monogamous relationship, and is quite propable in the harshness of materialism most are greatly affected and molded by, but if both are serious about the relationship and furthermore acknowledge the occult challenges, a monogamous relationship can support us little humans to rise up to the challenges of humanity. Perhaps choosing polyamorous relationships could help someone gaining new perspectives and loose some views on relationships that have been harmfully turned in to stone, but I’m personally automated to see also these problems and consider the loss of romanticism to be loss of nuances.
"Would to God that all the Lord's people were Prophets”, Numbers 11:29 as echoed by William Blake
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Nefastos
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Re: Incel - personal perspectives

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It frightens me even to consider such a possibility, but can there be a societal aspect to this virtue of violence growing from celibacy, consciously or subconsciously constructed? If we'd be willing to a little New Age dive, this might even link the problem to an archonic influence, i.e. spirits veiling humankind's inner potential, as dealt with e.g. Ervast in his commentary to the Gospel of John.

This came to my mind as I have been recently able to examine the effects of celibacy on the high energy reserve & having the over-tension released. Horrible as it is, as the tension nears its breaking point, need for physical love inverts itself as a need for physical anti-love, i.e. violence. When the physical frustration grows to horrifying proportions, I really feel an actual urge to stab & kill. This feeling that stems from purely physical sensations (I am so lucky than I can nowadays feel loved by my several close friends even at the times when physical love i.e. sex is missing from my life) naturally tries to clothe itself to some pseudorational or rather mystical veilings, but it is easy to see through this cheap ruse: it is the simple overabundance of male energy, that semi-substantial "semen" (atheric fire) of the ancients, so closely tied to the chemistry of the actual physical semen.

Etymology supports my theory of partly societal aspect. Even in English we have the word "virtue", which comes from Latin "virtus" (virtue) and "vir" (man) which in turn comes from Sanskrit vîrya (heroism). Thus "virtue" means "manliness" as Power or inner strength. If we consider how this "manliness" was tested and needed, let's say, in ancient Rome or Greece (where or through which this disturbingly universal idea was being coined to words in question), the society really needed – or thought that it needed – "virtuous manly men" i.e. people who were willing to kill. Happy people, or people who are mentally in balance because there is no overabundance of inner fire, are not willing to go to war. Thus perhaps the whole warrior caste has been generated purposefully by electing the institue of celibacy. This is quite a disturbing thought.

My idea concerning "peace" as the union of "gladius & vagina" – also from the Gospel of John – would seem to give some slight support for this.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Peregrina
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Re: Incel - personal perspectives

Post by Peregrina »

Smaragd wrote: Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:21 am Perhaps choosing polyamorous relationships could help someone gaining new perspectives and loose some views on relationships that have been harmfully turned in to stone, but I’m personally automated to see also these problems and consider the loss of romanticism to be loss of nuances.
To me a polyamorous relationship is sort of an ideal, a very far ideal though.
I believe we are not a biologically monogamous species, though perhaps monogamy was needed when there was no proper protection against std's and unwanted pregnancies.
And still is because most of us (myself included) aren't emotionally mature enough to handle the jealousy issues that might come forth.
But I hope that some day I could be so comfortable in my own skin that my insecurities wouldn't be an obsticle if it seems that a polyamorous relationship is something that best serves the needs of everyone involved.
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Nefastos
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Re: Incel - personal perspectives

Post by Nefastos »

Peregrina wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 10:12 pmTo me a polyamorous relationship is sort of an ideal, a very far ideal though.
I believe we are not a biologically monogamous species, though perhaps monogamy was needed when there was no proper protection against std's and unwanted pregnancies.
And still is because most of us (myself included) aren't emotionally mature enough to handle the jealousy issues that might come forth.
But I hope that some day I could be so comfortable in my own skin that my insecurities wouldn't be an obsticle if it seems that a polyamorous relationship is something that best serves the needs of everyone involved.

I'll present a different view, although not in order to oppose yours. I think that it is great to ponder upon possibilities & choose the one which is the actual best one possible for oneself & one's partner/s. People are different, situations are different. Different people seek different things from partnerships, yet most of human beings either factually need or at least greatly benefit from having a sexual relationship.

This all said, I think our biologico-sociological schemas are often more like opposing challenges than good signposts for an occultist. They point out to the past, while the spiritual challenges pave the road to future development. Evolving of species under pressure (not too much, or too little pressure, which would both turn us to regression instead) is a fact known to science, and for human beings such development to adepthood does not need to require millions of years, but mere thousands. This is because our more advanced help within, the Master, makes for us possible to make the best out of our biologico-sociological states.

That was my prologue "against biology", by which I mean biology taken as a reason to remain in something that is familiar for us as a species. (For it seems to be biologico-sociologically usual tendency for men to seek out different partners and for women to seek for monogamy, since by this habit there is (a) enough competed offspring and (b) it gets cared for & most likely survives.) Then to the next question. Is monogamy somehow more spiritual, or pragmatically more suitable for an occultist?

Personally I believe that it is, and I will give some explanations shortly. Before that, I want to underline that this belief is similar to my other beliefs about "the best possible situation" which, however, must always been weighed against real possibilities of an individual situation. Likewise, staying in the sexual themes, I'd also say that it would be "the best possible situation" in case no outer fetishes would create demands for one's sexuality. Yet in my own case that still happens, and so I only try to make the best out of such situation, and also consider that compromises like these may bring about surprisingly uplifting results, when one seeks to live truly to one's heart (and brains, and loins – but foremostly to the heart).

My most important point is: Almost anyone who have been in monogamous relationship based on love knows how demanding it is to create that intimate union which seeks to take into consideration every aspect of one's partner. To be truly considerate, and to grow together as a result. The more intimate the relationship is, the more deep, the more one has to immerse oneself into the partner's psyche also. And the balance thus created is a careful unity of two different people. This is extremely demanding a process, the two in many ways becoming a solid one, energetically. (This is why the alchemical Great Work is symbolically a union between the husband and the wife. These are the two cosmic polarities, the two polarities in one aspirant, and two polarities in a romantic relationship.)

Thus, to consider not making the alchemy simpler, but even more complicated, by adding a new component/s to this demanding process of two, sounds pretty much overwhelming. I believe there is only one possibility in most such relationships: to compromise the depth sector. Only if the energies are no longer that intensely intimate, can they be left flowing to several directions. But this would be the opposite of the Great Work, which seeks more intimate unity, polarities immersing to form a new being, that would be like a ideal amalgam of its two component parts. Now, of course, one may not think the relationship as the Great Work! In case the relationship is instead comradeship, friendship, possibility to explore the self, receive & give warmth & love, and remain working on one's own Great Work only inside oneself, such a removed energetical sector may become unnecessary to think about, at least to such an utmost degree. There may be all kind of good results even though there is less tying intimacy.

I have seen more or less polyamorous relationship working in my friends' lives. (I have also seen it not working in my friends' lives, but that can also be said about monogamic relationships.) I have once fantasized about such a relationship in my own past, when I had an affair with a person who was absolutely ideal in some ways and absolutely impossible in some others. And with just these two facts, I can imagine how the polyamorous relationship might be needed and work out. But since I consider that for me the intimate love that seeks "to make two as one" is the most important aspect of a relationship, for me personally that would be a very big compromise. But then again, I am not very free-thinking individual when it comes to sex & romantic relationships. I am quite sure that the time we are living and which might be just starting will see my old school ideas moved to the trash bin of the ancients, right next to the Victorian shame of masturbation.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Peregrina
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Re: Incel - personal perspectives

Post by Peregrina »

Very good points you both have, Smaragd and Nefastos.
I must take time to think those over, because they resonate on a rather sensitive areas, which is why I might write something impulsive that I regret later, if I'm not careful.
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Smaragd
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Polyamory

Post by Smaragd »

Peregrina wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 1:59 pm Very good points you both have, Smaragd and Nefastos.
I must take time to think those over, because they resonate on a rather sensitive areas, which is why I might write something impulsive that I regret later, if I'm not careful.
My examples of the idea were admittedly badly slithered to, which is a common problem for me especially when I have to come up with them fast (O how much trust hangs on the clarity of arguments! It is unfortunate that people often take their stances and positions according to the clarity some argument has been expressed, and not seriously considering also the more faint voices that are yet to completely unearth - a tragedy of my life).

I could almost relate to the thought you mentioned polyamory being very far ideal, but I think it is so far that the whole term might need to be changed. It might be so far, that I'm not sure if humanity would be in touch with flesh and bone anymore, and therefore the nature of interaction would be on totally different levels than what we call romantic relationships or sexual relationships (I'm thinking the relationship I have to my master, and it is much more accurate to describe it by more abstract words like buddhi, or the application of the hieroglyphic key, than sex). To avoid cutting corners in thinking what is spiritual attainment and how they are reflected in the culture, I like to think of what adepthood means and how it is achieved. The hardship that goes in to this is such a great and wholesome undertaking that to just jump there, even on the level of ideas, has the danger of misunderstanding.

That said, I've understood that in some shakta cults, the initiations come from the women and through intercourse, thus some sort of "polyamory" have been the reality there. This I'd imagine to happen in a very specific way and so woven in to the integral cult beliefs, mental set, energetic structure and correspondences between the micro and macro cosmos (individuals having certain spiritual titles and positions in the cult), that the whole state of living and understanding of relationships and sex would be so completely different from the Western state of mind and the demons we have been granted to work with, would need immense working. I'm humorously imagining a group of scientists having their neurometers peeping red on psychosis when observing the cult from the outside. So vast a gorge between the surrounding culture and the cult, is why cults are questionable and slip too easily in to harmful ways. The tension between the two is dangerously unstable (reflecting the relation SoA has to the outside world, it seems the times have been thus far surprisingly ripe). Individually I try to keep my head up above the clouds, but also my feet tightly on the ground.
"Would to God that all the Lord's people were Prophets”, Numbers 11:29 as echoed by William Blake
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