Incel - personal perspectives

Putting together ones life with the modern world.
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Soror O
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Incel - personal perspectives

Post by Soror O »

(Disclaimer: vent-alert, foul language, some mild crazyness)

Incel (invonluntary selibacy) is a new-found part of my life experience. I'm a 35 yo. woman who is used to having sex on regular basis, now it has stopped completely. I'm curious to hear how you have coped with this phenomena. At the moment I find it hard to get along with this lack that I'm experiencing. And I'd like to examine it further.

Here are some symptoms that I've linked with incel:
1. Emotional symptoms - such as irritability, increased negativity, sorrow, self-esteem challenges
2. Physiological symptoms - menopause type of symptoms (mood swings on atypical times, night sweats, sleep deprivation).
3. Spiritual symptoms - lack of meaning, certain flattness - lack of dynamic movement, feeling 500 years old and being ready to die off.


Regarding my own incel, I've pondered different solutions, such as:

1. Establishing a sex affair: the problem here is that it feels highly counter intuitive to have sex with just some random profane guy. The sexual ache that I feel wouldn't be cured - quite vice versa.

2. Igniting some old flame: the problem here is that these old flames are old and burried for a good reason - and having sex with them would result in energetic tanglement, heartbreak and insanity.

3. Turning a friendship into FWB relationship: Atm I don't have friends with mutual sexual attraction (that I know of)

4. Finding a new relationship: I don't control all of the variables here. As we all know, these things just happen - or then not.

5. Adjusting my mindset: if i could just transform the "involuntary" to be experienced as "voluntary", as if I'm choosing this. But it just doesn't feel truthful.

It feels quite ridiculous how much sex really means to me. Without it, it almost seems as there's no point to exist anymore (as if there was before). It feels as if I'm not really myself anymore (what ever that meant anyway). Spiritually I know that I could transform this lack to be fulfilled, but in a way it feels that I don't want to do it. I have had autoerotic experiences which have been very fulfilling. I guess that my sexual desire is desire that I feel towards lively otherness. And yet the otherness is the thing that I also dread the most. I guess the easiest way would be surrendering to this experience, amor fati style. But I don't want to surrender to this kind of shitness! I can surrender to insanity, all types of other suffering, but Satan, Lord, don't take away my holy candy! (Maybe this lament of a pray will result my kid having a leukemia, but me finding a hot lover. Oh, fuck this, fuck all, well yes: I surrender to this, fuck you God, I'd fuck you if I could. Maybe I can...)
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Nefastos
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Re: Incel - personal perspectives

Post by Nefastos »

It's great to have someone else besides myself ranting here about problems of sexual nature – specifically, frustration. So thank you kindly, Ave! I was actually just browsing Tinder when noticing this, & I think one doesn't need to be an esotericist to feel that place being somewhat... nonoptimal.

But, correct me if I am wrong, is not "incel" quite a specific term, that has more loaded approach to the problem of "involuntary celibacy"? For like your point number one made clear, you are kind like "voluntary involuntary celibate", whose problem is not that sex would be unavailable, but who is not interested in simple sex for sex's sake.

Ave wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 2:55 pm1. Establishing a sex affair

For me, this seems a very difficult path to take. I am much too fragile & romantic personality type that I could be so intimate without having nothing else besides physical closeness.

Ave wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 2:55 pm2. Igniting some old flame: the problem here is that these old flames are old and burried for a good reason - and having sex with them would result in energetic tanglement, heartbreak and insanity.

You nailed it.

Ave wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 2:55 pm3. Turning a friendship into FWB relationship

Also, the problem is the same as with the points 1 & 2. I think that friends with benefits seldom does not break & twist the friendship, if at least one subject in the equation is "fragile & romantic".

Ave wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 2:55 pm4. Finding a new relationship: I don't control all of the variables here. As we all know, these things just happen - or then not.

Well, you can also use magic, but then the wish-granting djinni will give you exactly what you wished for, and this can be worse than nothing happening at all. And this even said in cases where the spell is not put on any person, but upon the veil of manifestation itself.

Ave wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 2:55 pm5. Adjusting my mindset: if i could just transform the "involuntary" to be experienced as "voluntary", as if I'm choosing this.

I tried this for so extremely long that I know that it is not possible for my own energies. Naturally a serious illness or similar can change those fundamental energies, but I am past wishing those kind of violent changes.

Ave wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 2:55 pmI guess the easiest way would be surrendering to this experience, amor fati style.

Every person is an individual, with individual energetics. But based on what I have heard & studied, it seems that a female body is able to get past sexual frustration eventually, even though it may feel like being put in a grave. But it seems that it is usually trickier (sometimes bordering on utterly impossible, as in my case) with male anatomy.

Ave wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 2:55 pmHere are some symptoms

Your experiences with sexual frustration are not very far from mine.

I have already mentioned lately the nervous problems that make sleeping extremely difficult without quite heavy medication. At some point the spine starts to feel like it is made of radioactive lead. I must force myself into every easiest everyday task. Simply writing a diary (one of my dearest pastimes) becomes harder and harder: it is very difficult to grasp the pencil and just carry it along the paper. Everything else is much more difficult yet. Every breath starts to feel like fighting against drowning, and finally a kind of hyperventilation comes to pass. At some point, there will start feelings that are not quite hallucinations, but similar: a feeling that I am thrown through air, my whole body is burning, I am being suffocated, I am surrounded by heavy water in a closed space. All this happens because the body is too filled with one-sidedly polarized magnetism (aether).

Because the problem is the polarity of the personal magnetism, there is very little one can do on one's own (i.e. masturbation helps very little). Even a non-vaginal coitus is not optimal means for rebalancing that magnetism; only a vaginal coitus is able to fully accomplish that equilibrium of male & female magnetism. This is one dirty move from God, since we know all the problematic things that can happen in vaginal coitus. I mostly mean children, but of course there are venereal diseases too. My point is, sexual intercourse is so extremely intimate thing, that it should not be something equally important for people than eating or sleeping. (And, luckily enough, it doesn't seem to be for all; but there are people who are, ah, more "gifted" with this aetheric energy.)

p.s. Almost as long as this forum has been out, there has been a recurring joke that there should be a SoA date area here. And perhaps there should. After all, we already have one lodge that has made sexuality its main point of interest, and just this Friday I heard from a person a (joking) suggestion to make another such lodge...
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Soror O
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Re: Incel - personal perspectives

Post by Soror O »

Nefastos wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 4:11 pm
But, correct me if I am wrong, is not "incel" quite a specific term, that has more loaded approach to the problem of "involuntary celibacy"? For like your point number one made clear, you are kind like "voluntary involuntary celibate", whose problem is not that sex would be unavailable, but who is not interested in simple sex for sex's sake.
Yes, I redefined incel from a subjective point of you - because in this "incel movement" it has been defined solely from a masculine perspective and the implicit definition of sex with in it is far from being what I understand sex to be.
Nefastos wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 4:11 pm
I have already mentioned lately the nervous problems that make sleeping extremely difficult without quite heavy medication. At some point the spine starts to feel like it is made of radioactive lead. I must force myself into every easiest everyday task. Simply writing a diary (one of my dearest pastimes) becomes harder and harder: it is very difficult to grasp the pencil and just carry it along the paper. Everything else is much more difficult yet. Every breath starts to feel like fighting against drowning, and finally a kind of hyperventilation comes to pass. At some point, there will start feelings that are not quite hallucinations, but similar: a feeling that I am thrown through air, my whole body is burning, I am being suffocated, I am surrounded by heavy water in a closed space. All this happens because the body is too filled with one-sidedly polarized magnetism (aether).
This sounds quite hellish indeed. My sexual ache is more of a blunt, sorrowful decay, with a hint of lame rage.
Nefastos wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 4:11 pm
This is one dirty move from God, since we know all the problematic things that can happen in vaginal coitus.
Yes, such kinkyish sense of humour He has.
Nefastos wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 4:11 pm
p.s. Almost as long as this forum has been out, there has been a recurring joke that there should be a SoA date area here. And perhaps there should. After all, we already have one lodge that has made sexuality its main point of interest, and just this Friday I heard from a person a (joking) suggestion to make another such lodge...
Oh, well that person must be having some high regards on his expertize on such sexual matters. I couldn't dare to form a lodge if I wouldn't esteem myself to be somekind of "an expert" on my lodge's field.

About that date area: My first thought was that it would degrade this forum - but isn't that such a dualistic view in it self.
If you want to reborn, let yourself die.
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Re: Incel - personal perspectives

Post by Cerastes »

It is nice to read that the topic is discussed so openly and honestly here. I am pleased about this because I have noticed a very problematic tendency in our society in recent years. The INCEL scene is a logical consequence of this.

I've been following this INCEL scene for a while now and have mostly dealt with the male perspective, because in fact it is young men who are most likely to experience such problems. It is a vicious circle, because desperation and neediness are qualities that are much more undesirable in men than in women. (Not my personal opinion but rooted in every socienty) Women can perceive sexual frustration in men very clearly, even if they are not conciously aware of it. The mindless argument that a sexually frustrated man should go to a prostitute shows that there is absolutely no understanding of the actual problem. It‘s almost as stupid as telling a person with anxiety diorder to be less afraid and more confident. Just go, have sex with a prostitute and all your problems with sexuality will fly away. Well...no. It does not work this way.
One of the very basic sexual desires is to be sexually desired. And personally spoken I could not imagine having sex without this mutal desire and the more passion I notice in men, the more passion I feel myself. (→Magnetism) Not sure if men feel the same but I guess so. A lot of people even need romantic love to have sex.

I‘d say it is would be helpful to have a better debate about this in our society because everyone I talked about this in person was very fearful about being judged. They usually fear to be viewed as perverts or losers. If this fear goes away, at least the (self)-hatred that comes along with it would be erased.
Sexual frustration has the potential to damage physical and mental health to such a degree, that it should not just ignored on a collective level. But since the effect is very different from person to person, there is very little understanding.

Okay, I just noticed that I could write an endlessly long monologue on this topic but I don't want to annoy anyone with in-depth ranting.
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Soror O
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Re: Incel - personal perspectives

Post by Soror O »

Cerastes wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 10:43 pm It is nice to read that the topic is discussed so openly and honestly here. I am pleased about this because I have noticed a very problematic tendency in our society in recent years. The INCEL scene is a logical consequence of this.

I've been following this INCEL scene for a while now and have mostly dealt with the male perspective, because in fact it is young men who are most likely to experience such problems. It is a vicious circle, because desperation and neediness are qualities that are much more undesirable in men than in women. (Not my personal opinion but rooted in every socienty) Women can perceive sexual frustration in men very clearly, even if they are not conciously aware of it. The mindless argument that a sexually frustrated man should go to a prostitute shows that there is absolutely no understanding of the actual problem. It‘s almost as stupid as telling a person with anxiety diorder to be less afraid and more confident. Just go, have sex with a prostitute and all your problems with sexuality will fly away. Well...no. It does not work this way.
One of the very basic sexual desires is to be sexually desired. And personally spoken I could not imagine having sex without this mutal desire and the more passion I notice in men, the more passion I feel myself. (→Magnetism) Not sure if men feel the same but I guess so. A lot of people even need romantic love to have sex.

I‘d say it is would be helpful to have a better debate about this in our society because everyone I talked about this in person was very fearful about being judged. They usually fear to be viewed as perverts or losers. If this fear goes away, at least the (self)-hatred that comes along with it would be erased.
Sexual frustration has the potential to damage physical and mental health to such a degree, that it should not just ignored on a collective level. But since the effect is very different from person to person, there is very little understanding.

Okay, I just noticed that I could write an endlessly long monologue on this topic but I don't want to annoy anyone with in-depth ranting.
Hehe, you left me curious!

Yes, the INCEL movement is indeed an interesting one. With this opening my naiive purpose was to encourage discussion about selibacy which is regarded involuntary by the subject, my aim was not to comment on the INCEL scene - how ever provocative my words could have be taken in the context of that kind of "gender wars" - with my "(white) female priviledge" and all.

You mention that sexual frustration ought to be faced more sincerely on the collective level. It is true that there are certain social constructions that add to this "problem". My main interest in this phenomenom is the spiritual aspect of it, so I'm not going into societal interpretations here, however interesting a subject that might be. Spiritually, I think that there is a shift and collective balancing of sexual energies going on. This can be confusing.

I begun to think that maybe people who are able to have "purely" sexual relationship are over-embodying the masculine energy. They tend to be able to objectify their sex partner to the degree that it seems highly irrelevant if (s)he's there as a subject/person. The lively otherness is tamed and lost with this oneway stare, the masculine force.

I've always felt that the most manly man is inwardly feminine and the most feminine woman is inwardly masculine (this is a simplification). Genuine embodying of sexual energies is also "sexless" and dynamic - masculine and feminine functions are coupling in a creative flow (regarless of biological sex).
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Nefastos
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Re: Incel - personal perspectives

Post by Nefastos »

There are so many interesting points relating to the topic, that I cannot help but to create a fortress of text... I hope there are still means to enter.

We can branch the discussion to new threads if needed.

Cerastes wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 10:43 pmOne of the very basic sexual desires is to be sexually desired.

Well said, I hadn't thought that so much before. Just yesterday we were talking with my sisters (not the brotherhood ones, but biological) & I was presenting some amazement about how some people use their Tinder accounts. ("Minimalistic" might be the way to phrase it.) It was a small revelation for me when my sisters pointed out to me that those women are not necessarily seeking any kind of actual relationship, not even purely sexual in a physical sense, but the one you mentioned: there is need to be sexually desired. Just to see people liking you, or some mental image of you, seems to be quite intoxicating. This was a new angle for me to consider, even though it must be very familiar to younger people who have basically lived their whole life in a social media.

Cerastes wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 10:43 pmI‘d say it is would be helpful to have a better debate about this in our society because everyone I talked about this in person was very fearful about being judged. They usually fear to be viewed as perverts or losers. If this fear goes away, at least the (self)-hatred that comes along with it would be erased.

A few days ago I was talking with a fellow Satanist, who in a way is even quite proud to be – heh – a pervert. We were discussing about the use of skirt in public, a thing both of us would like to do, would there not be this immense weight of being judged so hard that it would demand an awful lot of energy to bear. The discussion we had once again made me think how important it is to instill this path of Satanic/"tantric"/reversible preferences societally, and how slow process it is. Even from me & my friend who have been in "pervert Satanic" business for decades, it still demands some inner wrestle to bear the weight of heavily projected masculine values from the surrounding society. From which we get to the next topic...:

Ave wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 10:12 amI begun to think that maybe people who are able to have "purely" sexual relationship are over-embodying the masculine energy. They tend to be able to objectify their sex partner to the degree that it seems highly irrelevant if (s)he's there as a subject/person.

I have been quite desperate in how the feminist ideal has (for me) seem to be 90 % a try to usher masculine values & masculine mindsets as universal, practically killing out that which I love most dearly in myself too: the female, subtle, loving, careful-not-to-hurt, empathetic, balance-seeking, beauty-loving, tender approach. I.e. the values that have for centuries and millennia taken as "feminine virtues". But in the most recent years there has finally been starting a new phenomenon of the male sex being more open to these values, that have been culturally eradicated from the cultural female. This is so great a relief that I consider it as one of the best things that have happened during my lifetime. And if that will continue, it really was worth & understandable that for so long the "equality of sexes" movement basically meant "making women as men". I understand that it was needed also because women have been so awfully repressed, oppressed, and violated. So the woman in culture needed a head start, so to say, in this dawning culture of presenting the inner man to woman, and the inner woman to man. Uniting the best characteristics from the both archetypal sets, has always been the occult ideal. (See shamanistic, alchemical, theosophical, &c. workings about this Ardhanarishvara or Herm[es]-Aphrodite archetype.)

Cerastes wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 10:43 pmWomen can perceive sexual frustration in men very clearly, even if they are not conciously aware of it.

It is really a funny thing – funny in Obnoxian sense: "Humor is that someone falls and hurts his head" – that when I am in a happy relationship & shine with the life energy that is made possible by regular sex, women are interested in me. But as soon as the relationship has ended & there is no longer sexual intercourse, "the shining" gets more & more twisted the more the time passes, and most women instictually flinch from that need that becomes apparent in the slightest gestures & overall lack of confidence – how I bear myself.

Cerastes wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 10:43 pmThe mindless argument that a sexually frustrated man should go to a prostitute shows that there is absolutely no understanding of the actual problem.

Also, in many places this is also a legal problem. In Finland prostitution itself is not illegal, but some things around it are, so you will probably face all kinds of problems with the society should you try to take this route.

Interestingly enough, I think that my quid pro quo accountant attitude would make it possible for me to consider this route. But the new problem is that if I remove all romance from my sexual ideal, the result is a female figure that is not found from Finland. In a normal union, the overall actual person is what matters. (Ok, this would need a footnote I save you from for now.) But in a union that is basically autoerotic, I would need a partner who is close to my quite fantastic personal preferences. This is most likely a rare problem though!
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Kavi
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Re: Incel - personal perspectives

Post by Kavi »

Cerastes wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 10:43 pmWomen can perceive sexual frustration in men very clearly, even if they are not conciously aware of it.
It is really a funny thing – funny in Obnoxian sense: "Humor is that someone falls and hurts his head" – that when I am in a happy relationship & shine with the life energy that is made possible by regular sex, women are interested in me. But as soon as the relationship has ended & there is no longer sexual intercourse, "the shining" gets more & more twisted the more the time passes, and most women instictually flinch from that need that becomes apparent in the slightest gestures & overall lack of confidence – how I bear myself.
I have oddly had same perception of this and it annoys so much sometimes and makes me anxious.
Also I used magic to get partner and it wasn't worth it. There is some kind of trickster mentality and "question mark" in this kind of practice in my opinion. The outcome can be anything and sometimes exactly what you wanted but you formulated the wish in vague form and got exactly that.


This is my third or fourth try to formulate some ideas about this topic so I try to keep my sentences very short without complexities. Also this topic and theme is very fragile for many reasons and I really don't want to tread on anyone's toes.
I refer to Ave, Nefastos, Polyhymnia, Cerastes... (quoting exact parts is kinda tedious and hard)

I am not sure if my view is correct one but need to be desired is somehow turned upside down so that self-worth is calculated and analyzed in "Game" with pickup artists, the ones who seduce women and sleep with them. Although I appreciate honing the skills in different areas, I think in art of seduction some stuff seem pretty much manipulative and almost as black magic.

With Incels I don't like the term involuntary as it seems for me to sound like World is debt and owns something for person but I understand where this word comes from. I am somehow involuntarily in celibacy too but for completely different reason and I think incel has something to do with other topics like despair, that no one wants you - rather than other circumstances which I am in for instance. So shortly put, I understand this term but maybe my understanding of definition is not exactly clear.

I have lived my life quite long in way that my only girlfriend was my own hand but I never felt really strongly sexually frustrated and I believe it has something to do with temperament. I even joked once that I attained some form of monastery lifestyle and although at some point I might have been a bit bitter that I haven't had that much of experience with opposite sex I think key thing is that some of folks who really turn into incel haven't ever had any kind of contact so they are in heavy despair.
Also low self-esteem which is making it all circular.
But even in kind of Tolkien way I think these individuals are maybe the most strongest beings alive walking this barren earth in hunger but I can't forget ethical perspective and I'd sound like privileged idiot and so I wish that for people who live in condition of incel will find their needs being met.

Also ridiculous hierarchy of masculinity which has alphas and betas and soyboys and cuckolds and then also expectations of manhood and what not...
The interesting point is that when this kind of wrath of "not having it" is usually not directed at the so called "alphas" because they somehow deserve their rank in this hierarchic logic and so this anger, even actualized violence, is concentrated on women.
IN ADDITION to sex, I think my despair has always been concentrated on the notion that I feel myself as a "dharmic cuckold" and somehow can't have enough pride in it or enjoy it, instead I feel a bit of jealousy for all the human beings who can do and finish their projects and materialize them into books, degrees etc.


I think there could be topic for tantric practices and changing roles: skirts and how some men want to be objectified and what not...
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Re: Incel - personal perspectives

Post by Kavi »

IN ADDITION to sex, I think my despair has always been concentrated on the notion that I feel myself as a "dharmic cuckold" and somehow can't have enough pride in it or enjoy it, instead I feel a bit of jealousy for all the human beings who can do and finish their projects and materialize them into books, degrees etc.
Also with this kind of vocabulary and ideas it might portrait...I also wanted to underline how twisted the way to look at life is but I forgot to mention this and usually it tells just of poor self-esteem.


Also my post was just the psychological and subjective view of the topic and I think there is also broader and societal level which needs to be addressed as well.
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Re: Incel - personal perspectives

Post by Insanus »

I have experienced intense sexual frustration even in relationships where sex has been regular, because it has been used as a substitute for dealing with all kinds of emotional blockages and difficulties.
I feel like sex is (or it should be) about intimate sharing of some fundamental romantic fantasy, but it can easily just pretend to be that.
Sex "means" that I'm loved, that I'm me, that I get what I want, that I have an intimate connection, this-and-that and thousand other things, except if it doesn't, and then the all-too-human solution is to try to have more sex that's deeply unsatisfying to create what's not there and then it pushes people apart. :D horrible.
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Re: Incel - personal perspectives

Post by Soror O »

Nefastos wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:39 am
Cerastes wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 10:43 pmWomen can perceive sexual frustration in men very clearly, even if they are not conciously aware of it.
It is really a funny thing – funny in Obnoxian sense: "Humor is that someone falls and hurts his head" – that when I am in a happy relationship & shine with the life energy that is made possible by regular sex, women are interested in me. But as soon as the relationship has ended & there is no longer sexual intercourse, "the shining" gets more & more twisted the more the time passes, and most women instictually flinch from that need that becomes apparent in the slightest gestures & overall lack of confidence – how I bear myself.


I know that I'm contradicting my opening post, but I've now decided to experience abundance (sexual, vital, whatever) regardless of my non-existent sexlife. Because: what really emerges from lack- nothing. What emerges from abundance - everything. I realized that I've pretty much materialized every thing that I've wished - sincerely and from a point of view of surrender and abundance. "Give everything up - and you'll be given everything", said Lao tzu. I see this act of surrender as a top (feminine) virtue.

Also, I've practiced being/ embodying the lover that I'm aching for, really being the Man - (for) myself. This practice turns around the energetic table from lacking to already "having" (within). This practice truly profits from a vivid and playful imagination. I've said that always get what I want. But getting what one wants is also a process of falling in love with the things that one gets (there's no contradiction here, really). Is this then some passive, fatalistic bs and spinster witch make-believe? Maybe so, but atleast I'm enjoying the ride while I'm going down with my spiderwebby vagina.
Insanus wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 4:38 pm I have experienced intense sexual frustration even in relationships where sex has been regular, because it has been used as a substitute for dealing with all kinds of emotional blockages and difficulties.
I feel like sex is (or it should be) about intimate sharing of some fundamental romantic fantasy, but it can easily just pretend to be that.
Sex "means" that I'm loved, that I'm me, that I get what I want, that I have an intimate connection, this-and-that and thousand other things, except if it doesn't, and then the all-too-human solution is to try to have more sex that's deeply unsatisfying to create what's not there and then it pushes people apart. :D horrible.
Thank you for remind for the sex that I don't miss. Sex with my ex was, although being spiritually and physiologically very satisfying, bad because it tied me chain of predestined suffering. Took me years to get over the mind fuck of having incredibly good (spiritual) sex with a toxic person (to me he was toxic.) At last I ofcourse realized that his demon-like existence was part of the (sexual) allure. He said from the start that he's a "NPC" (non-playable character). I thought that "well, sure there must be a real person, a spiritual agent somewhere there." Turns out there wasn't (imo). So with what I really made love with when I made love with him? What were those orgasms which felt like arriving home? (And yeah, it was not all about the daddy issues.)

EDIT/ mandatory "daddy issues" -disclaimer added
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