Lots to touch on, and the conversation already moves too fast for me to keep up with, so I'm inevitably going to miss some things, but - some thoughts:
Nefastos wrote: ↑Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:03 am
It seems that our international presence has once again downshifted recently. Many members outside Finland have either left, or succumbed into silence or inactivity. New people outside Finland enter the forum (or, as far as I know, the lodges) only rarely.
This is definitely the case, and I won't argue too much against it. Inactivity has definitely been and to some degree still is a challenge on the international side. But part of the way this is seen (or rather, activity is not seen) is due to the current structure we're working in. Now that we are functioning as independent Lodges, the international side is doing just that, and a lot of our activity is happening behind the closed doors of the Lodge, so to speak. I have no contact with any other Lodges, so I can't bear witness to how they function or what they are up to - although I know they are certainly still active. I think its partly just a matter of the closed off nature of things now. At least on my end of things, my priorities have had to shift, which means putting the time and energy I have for online communication into the Lodge itself, which leaves less, or as it is, basically none left for the public forum. Speaking just for myself, I'm always in awe of how much some others are able to output, and all the ongoing conversations and efforts here on the English side are certainly read and appreciated - I just have very little to ability to add to them myself on-top of the other responsibilities.
Nefastos wrote: ↑Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:03 am
The main reason would surely be the distance. In Finland we have many possibilities to meet & be active more easily, because there are so many members that most people find at least somebody who share one's own approaches and make association more natural. Outside Finland, there are extremely few possibilities for meetings, and loneliness of the members must make hard to feel the shared spiritual, astral & ideal presence.
This is also certainly part of the challenge. I think new international members come expecting to find that camaraderie and community readily available, and then have difficulty activating when that is not necessarily the case because we as international members are spread quite thin as it is. Much remains left to the individual. And in the case of Phanes, it's been a slow process of learning who we are as a Lodge, so it's not exactly a ready-made structure that one would be joining. It's all very much a work in progress and one that requires time and patience, for better or worse. And indeed, those chances to meet with someone are extremely rare - I'm lucky to have had a few of these opportunities which I'm incredibly grateful for, but it just as easily could not have happened. I'm lucky and thankful for the friends and connections I've made here, but I didn't necessarily join the SoA seeking those things. I joined because I was moved by the literature, and I agree with the philosophy and goals and wish to contribute to sharing them as much as I can. I think for potential new members, the ideals need to be reason #1 for wanting to join. Everything else should be secondary.
Nefastos wrote: ↑Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:03 am
One by one our English speaking members & guests have dropped somewhere, which makes the meaningful conversation & uplifting experiences more & more difficult for those few who remain, like our precious sisters Polyhymnia & Cerastes. It is so much easier for us Finns to make Finnish content, and the international part should by now be able to more active. Yet it seems to walk only with very uncertain, hesitating steps.
A lot of the time right now, the "somewhere" is just within the Lodge. First it was quite a shock to sort of get thrown together into the international Lodge during the initial structural change, and then another shock to lose the members forum, which really made us (me? I can't speak for anyone else) feel closed off from the rest of things. So it's just been a matter of having to adjust to all these continuous changes, and as a result it's been a bit of a slow and difficult process to get things going. But they are indeed starting to get going. I can't deny that it's been uncertain and hesitating on my end, but I sort of inherited this leadership position due to necessity and it is far out of my general comfort zone, so I'm just trying to navigate it as best I can, which admittedly is often not very well. But all of that said, while there is still room for a lot of improvement, which I hope and believe we can get to, Phanes as a whole is actually more active right now than it ever has been.
Cerastes wrote: ↑Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:11 am
On the long run we might need more international members to keep this going. In enjoy working in Lodge Phanes there have been many good ideas lately and the members are more active than before. But as you can see, there is little time for forum activity.
Just quoting Cerastes here as she put it more succinctly than all my ramblings above.
Regarding the public forum activity, as I mentioned before, I really am in awe of some members ability to consistently output at a high volume. For me, my time and energy is so limited, and there are only very small windows which I am able to post in. Plus it takes me forever to gather my thoughts enough enough to write anything, that it is often just not realistic for me to communicate regularly in this manner. It's just the reality and downside of internet communication in my case. I do wish the rest of my life was less demanding, leaving more time for discussions on here, but it is what it is. So I really am appreciative of anyone that does find and take the time to write regularly. Hats off to all of you.
Nefastos wrote: ↑Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:40 pm
Aquila wrote: ↑Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:53 amStruggling with other people's activity is also something that is very stressful and makes things more difficult.
Sadly, this is an enduring paradox in our work, the ever-looming Fifth Principle.
Underlining Aquila's sentiment here. When I first found myself having to lead Phanes, I struggled with member's inactivity and it weighed on me a lot. Trying to push against it and create ways for people to activate caused me a lot of stress, when my attempts were met with seeming uninterest. But this was not necessarily the way things needed to be. Anyone who I would consider more on the inactive side of the lodge right now has expressed their wish to remain in the Lodge and aligned with the SoA, and there are just varying life circumstances, personal challenges, whatever it may be, that lead to bits of silence, even if lengthy. I don't feel like it's my place to push too much against this and demand anything more of the members than they are able to put forward at any given time. We all have our demons to deal with and we do what we can. Right now Phanes has 11 members, and I think 60% of us are fairly active, the other 40% still wishing to remain, and I think things will bounce back as situations allow and as the Lodge continues to figure itself out.
Nefastos wrote: ↑Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:40 pm
Cerastes wrote: ↑Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:11 amThe problem at hand ist that there is so much interviews and media presence in Finnland and almost none in international media. Sure we have wonderful books like Fosforos and CoL but not everyone gets their hands on them.
Yes... The first part will demand its time, like it did in Finland. The second faces (like I have said) very bizarre ongoing problems with editors & artists. But like obnoxion said, these will sort themselves out at some point, should we keep trying. One more challenge for the English publications is that the brotherhood's number one publisher in Finland is mostly interested in Finland's own occult scene, so it would require extra work to find a good publisher that has logistics ready outside Finland
I've probably mentioned it before, but I think Anathema would be a great vehicle for English language publications. Of course I have no idea what the logistics of that would actually look like, but it really fits in my mind. I would like to start at least investigating the publication side of things with Protogonos, but I am hesitant and uncertain there once again, as I'm coming in blind. But we'll see how UFIII unfolds. What English language books are awaiting editing right now? I know Writings on Magic has been on the table for some time with a generally inactive member right now, and I have no knowledge of it's status. But maybe we can re-asses and re-assign that if necessary. Is there anything else awaiting the right workers?
Aquila wrote: ↑Fri Jul 03, 2020 2:39 pm
This questions is intended to everyone who might want to answer: what do you think is needed and what kind of international presence is expected? What is the best way to work on it?
I think this is the key question: What is expected? From my point of view right now, Phanes is working on projects, we're taking small and organic steps to figure out who we are as a Lodge, and those not able to or who just aren't participating right now have expressed their wish to remain in the Lodge. That's all I can expect of anyone right now. But I'm curious to see how others may answer this question.
Apologies if all of this sounds defensive or anything from me. I don't mean to be. The international side certainly has it's challenges and it's issues. I just feel like we're trying here!
![Laughing :lol:](./images/smilies/icon_lol.gif)
But I am glad for the conversation. The desire to do more, and to do better, bodes well for the future - even if there are a lot of growing pains and challenges right now. All the ideas presented so far sound like good ones to me. Thanks to Nefastos for bringing up the questions and to everyone offering suggestions so far.