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Re: Satanist as an outsider

Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:38 pm
by RaktaZoci
Mars wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 4:31 pmAlso when I think about what is it that I'm an outsider of, more often than not the result is an illusion of some shared reality of others when there isn't such a thing. Or the other way around: the shared reality includes us all so no one is an outsider except in their heads.
This is a very interesting thought and deals with one of the classical philosophical problems we face. I was meaning to write about this somewhere else, but decided to address the matter in this connection instead.

This illusion of a shared reality is in the heart of the problem of duality considering the outside world and our thoughts, but also that of the mind and body. Descartes proved that the mind must exist, of this we can be certain, he thought. But how can we be certain of anything else? If the outer reality can be observed with senses, how can we make similar certainty about it since senses can be proven to fail and deceive us? I believe this is an issue still unresolved, even though there are several solutions and theories about it.

Correct me Wyrmfang if I'm wrong, but Kant's idea was that the reality, or at least a part of it that can be observed is, to a certain extent, projected (for the lack of a better term) by us, our thoughts, to be observed? There is, however, an "outer" reality, in which the beings an sich exist, but of this we can have no knowledge of.

Hegel's solution, or one of them, for this problem was the idea of recognition, which I personally find alluring. He proposes that a self-conscious mind recognizes itself in another, i.e. agrees that the other mind, that of another person, is similar to his own mind and thus "makes himself free". This is a kind an ultimate sacrifice, in which the mind "opens itself up" to the other so it can thus find itself.

But, the final idea that I was _meaning_ to address is as follows: The philosophical debate about the mind-body/reality problem is in a sense paradoxical. Even if it was assumed that everything outside the mind is an illusion or unreal, subjective, isn't it still a known fact that we humans are part of a bigger whole, of Nature, and thus are at the same time subjects who observe nature but also at the same time objects of itself (Nature) as we are parts of it?

Re: Satanist as an outsider

Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:48 pm
by Wyrmfang
RaktaZoci wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:38 pm Correct me Wyrmfang if I'm wrong, but Kant's idea was that the reality, or at least a part of it that can be observed is, to a certain extent, projected (for the lack of a better term) by us, our thoughts, to be observed? There is, however, an "outer" reality, in which the beings an sich exist, but of this we can have no knowledge of.
Just to comment this shortly, this is the traditional reading of Kant, and it can´t definitely said that it is wrong. However, Kant is most often today (at least when he is defended) read in a postmetaphysical key; the "thing in itself" has become merely a conceptual necessity. According to postmetaphysical reading, there is one reality, which is basically chaotic excess and only rendered coherent in "partial wholes" by the subject´s activity. From this viewpoint, Hegel is not very far from Kant, as for example Markus Gabriel´s and Slavoj Zizek´s readings point out.

Re: Satanist as an outsider

Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:05 pm
by Hairetikos
Boreas wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 1:49 am Do you see yourself as an outsider in modern society and dominant culture?
Well yes and no. I'd say me and they get along but I don't belong. I feel this disharmony fra Nefastos mentioned earlier probably more powerful than many of those around me but I don't make a scene about it. I pay taxes and have a very, ehum, normal day job and somewhat active social life but I still feel I am somehow disconnected (couldn't come up with any better word) from the modern culture and zeitgeist. Like observing it all and being (involuntarily) part of it but not feeling okay about it. And still every person out there is like me, with history and emotions and pains and delights as important as mine, really being inside this thing known as humanity.

I tried to visualize my place and came up with this quite an abstract vision where I close myself outside the circles of things I most definitely don't have any relation with. And these circles entangle and form a some sort of mess of chains. So, I don't know what the hell to make of this, hahah.

Re: Satanist as an outsider

Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:33 pm
by Insanus
To me, the LHP/Satanic impulse/current/inspiration/whathaveyou is about chaos as sort of substance of antagonism, going over the limit, rocking the boat et cetera. I think satanism can only be a self-destructive and transgressive ideology be it about growth or destruction - there's no stability, no identity except that of Satan-Star-Void out there somewhere =not-here. Outcast-identity of romantic criminal or whatever has value only until it does, then it must be thrown away. Personally I see a satanist as someone who reaches for the impossible, for something beyond satisfaction, for more than answers to the life-question. Call it death drive or jouissance or petit a, the fire doesn't care outcast or not.

Re: Satanist as an outsider

Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:45 pm
by Angolmois
Insanus wrote: Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:33 pm To me, the LHP/Satanic impulse/current/inspiration/whathaveyou is about chaos as sort of substance of antagonism, going over the limit, rocking the boat et cetera. I think satanism can only be a self-destructive and transgressive ideology be it about growth or destruction - there's no stability, no identity except that of Satan-Star-Void out there somewhere =not-here. Outcast-identity of romantic criminal or whatever has value only until it does, then it must be thrown away. Personally I see a satanist as someone who reaches for the impossible, for something beyond satisfaction, for more than answers to the life-question. Call it death drive or jouissance or petit a, the fire doesn't care outcast or not.
That can very easily transform into a cult of permanent change and social revolution, to a "rebel without a flag" -ideology, or to a "shipwreck euphoria" of evasive new age (pseudo-)occultism.

But I guess the abyss gazes always back as one walks the razors edge.

Re: Satanist as an outsider

Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 10:19 pm
by Insanus
Boreas wrote: Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:45 pm
Insanus wrote: Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:33 pm To me, the LHP/Satanic impulse/current/inspiration/whathaveyou is about chaos as sort of substance of antagonism, going over the limit, rocking the boat et cetera. I think satanism can only be a self-destructive and transgressive ideology be it about growth or destruction - there's no stability, no identity except that of Satan-Star-Void out there somewhere =not-here. Outcast-identity of romantic criminal or whatever has value only until it does, then it must be thrown away. Personally I see a satanist as someone who reaches for the impossible, for something beyond satisfaction, for more than answers to the life-question. Call it death drive or jouissance or petit a, the fire doesn't care outcast or not.
That can very easily transform into a cult of permanent change and social revolution, to a "rebel without a flag" -ideology, or to a "shipwreck euphoria" of evasive new age (pseudo-)occultism.

Permanent change is oxymoron. Rebel without cause is the teenager spirit we know and love (or hate). Shipwreck euphoria is the mystical state of pleasure=pain that shouldn't be stained with ideas of hope of better future, nostalgia for past, conformity or something like that. Evasion, escapism means nothing without the standardized, shared reality: explosion of new subjectivity (that doesn't necessarily mean more individualism!) moves out of bounds before the new bounds are established. Water or sand slipping through fingers, excess life finding it's grave. Occult or not, it's flowing and the nature of spirit is to GO.

Re: Satanist as an outsider

Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 10:30 pm
by Angolmois
The outer darkness awaits!

Re: Satanist as an outsider

Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:21 pm
by Soror O
Insanus wrote: Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:33 pm Personally I see a satanist as someone who reaches (...) for something beyond satisfaction, for more than answers to the life-question. Call it death drive or jouissance or petit a, the fire doesn't care outcast or not.
This was neatly put. Yes, the fire doesn't care! The fire exceeds views about belonging and not belonging.

I could feel, and I have felt, being an outsider amongst the sleepwalkers of the material dream (material dream = viewpoint were this material reality is regarded being real per se). But nowadays, I'm being inside of (it) all. I just love this hupsy-doodely-planet with its quirky spider webby existence.

* edit: typos and extra hubris