Friedrich Nietzsche and Nihilism

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Angolmois

Friedrich Nietzsche and Nihilism

Post by Angolmois »

As there's been discussion about Nietzsche here and there in the forums, I thought to devote this thread for discussion about him and his philosophy.

I was somewhat of a Nietzschean in my youth and I think it was a necessary step to take as a young man living the death of God in our grey Lutheran atmosphere. Even today I find many quotes of his enlightening even if I completely reject his philosophy as a whole. The negative Nietzsche is in my opinion the prophet of the übermensch and his rejection of metaphysics and teleology, namely that there is no Truth other than one creates for one's self. From the western esotericists it was especially Julius Evola who said that Nietzsche's philosophy is actually not anti-moralistic but just a different kind of morality, and an absolute one in that, namely the philosophy of the übermensch and will to power, where everything that increases one's will to power is seen as an absolute good.

What is your personal stance on Nietzsche and his philosophy, namely nihilism? Are there any points of contact with occultism? What are the pros and cons regarding his philosophy?
obnoxion
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Re: Friedrich Nietzsche and Nihilism

Post by obnoxion »

I suppose I am a rare one here in that I never was attracted to Nietzsche much. Though he is the only Western philosopher whose style of writing I enjoy, especially in his "Thus Spake Zarathustra". I do, however, stumble on his influence quite regularily in poets and artists (for example, the poetry of Edith Södergran, or the paintings of Giorgio de Chirico). And that has given me the impression that he is much more nuanced thinker than he comes across if read with ubermench-glasses on.

I do not know what is Nietzsche's relation to nihilism. And I never was a nihilist myself.
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Kavi
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Re: Friedrich Nietzsche and Nihilism

Post by Kavi »

I think he had valid points about society and its loss of belief in hope yet attaining dogma or outer structures of protestant Christianity, which really reeks like death and probably this interpretation and also certain kind of teenager mentality and pride was important phase during my life.
Although I think Nietzsche himself wasn't nihilist I think at one point I was... Ooor at least I struggled with the feeling of emptiness and frustration and boredom.
E: but it depends on definition too
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Re: Friedrich Nietzsche and Nihilism

Post by Wyrmfang »

Together with Immanuel Kant, Nietzsche is the most important of my philosophical "enemies". That is, he has presented a comprehesive and consistent philosophy that is at odds with my deepest convictions. There are lots of silly interpretations of Nietzsche especially in esoteric and Satanic circles. However, Nietzsche´s philosophy is basically just a critique of post-Christian humanism, not that much of Christianity, which he saw as already past and gone. Übermensch means basically just a being which truly accepts what Nietzsche takes to be true anyway: that there is no objective morality. I think will to power as objective locus of morality is compatible with this; it is Nietzsche´s way of answering the argument that his relativism itself should be relativized. Namely the nature of the will is to differentiate, and each being wills for himself. Unlike most philosophers, Nietzsche understood how great a loss the death of God was - therefore the title "übermensch", a being that is actually no longer human as we understand it.

I take Nietzsche´s productive solution to be that one should just live as intensively as possible every moment, which would make futile the need for any extra-temporal ideal such as God or moral law. Aesthetics plays obviously a huge role for Nietzsche, and for example Alain Badiou, in his famous defense of the autonomy of philosophy against all reductions, judges Nietzsche to reduce philosophy to aesthetics.

As always with the deepest questions, there is no comprehensive rational argument against Nietzsche, but sure it can be shown that Nietzsche does not have such an argument either. Humanism can be defended from its own standpoint or then there can still be metaphysical basis for values if God is understood more primordially than as just the Christian version. Somehow Nietzsche does not seem to take this possibility seriously at all, though he was certainly aware of the various Romantic philosophies that vindicated this idea.
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Insanus
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Re: Friedrich Nietzsche and Nihilism

Post by Insanus »

Maybe it wouldn't be incorrect to call me nietzschean, but there's a tricky self-defeating aspect to that, similar to being "satanic". He is one of the most important philosophers to me mostly because of his psychological sharpness attacking certain type of dreamy idealism that I'm often very guilty of. I think he himself said he should be taken as a psychologist.

Nietzsche's value to me is mostly in his criticiques of religious mind concerned with other, truer worlds than this one, and - of course- christian moral values. Whether or not asserting the teleology of will to power was really Nietzsche's philosophical final aim is unclear to me, but the idea of will to power is inspiring. I read it (wrong, but what do I care, will to power baby) to mean that everyone is in a sense personally responsible for the teleology of the world. Or in other words: the world has a meaningful direction only in someone's eyes but it HAS that.
Nietzsche has inspired my thinking too also by challenging the value of truth. It's not that things are not true or false, but rather what does it matter and why? Does it have to be true in order to have real value and why is truth valuable? I think that's what Nietzsche was asking if I understand anything and of course I don't.

Certainly Nietzsche was moralistic in a sense: he just didn't like weak herd-values and preferred strong individual values. Loving your neighbour is fine to Nietzsche if (and only if) it's an expression of your own strenght.
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Angolmois

Re: Friedrich Nietzsche and Nihilism

Post by Angolmois »

obnoxion wrote: Mon Mar 16, 2020 7:26 pm And that has given me the impression that he is much more nuanced thinker than he comes across if read with ubermench-glasses on.
Verily so, yet the übermensch thought is what he is best known for and what makes the core of his thought. As Evola said it very well, "a confused sense of eternity runs through all his work". It was the contention of Evola that the real reason for Nietzsche's fall was that he was the object of transcendence rather than a subject. He "suffered transcendence" instead of being centered in it.
obnoxion wrote: Mon Mar 16, 2020 7:26 pmI do not know what is Nietzsche's relation to nihilism.
He considered himself as Europe's greatest nihilist since he had lived through it like no one else. And one can easily see that he was the precursor of modern nihilism in all its ways.
Wyrmfang wrote: Mon Mar 16, 2020 8:07 pm Together with Immanuel Kant, Nietzsche is the most important of my philosophical "enemies". That is, he has presented a comprehesive and consistent philosophy that is at odds with my deepest convictions.
I haven't really studied Kant directly but I can say the same about Nietzsche.
Wyrmfang wrote: Mon Mar 16, 2020 8:07 pmThere are lots of silly interpretations of Nietzsche especially in esoteric and Satanic circles.
Most certainly. So called neo-pagans are usually quite Nietzschean either openly or secretly - that is, they don't really believe in the existence of their Gods but see them mostly in a psychological or naturalistic fashion. Alain de Benoist being a good example. And black metal satanism sees him as a god.
Insanus wrote: Mon Mar 16, 2020 8:47 pmNietzsche has inspired my thinking too also by challenging the value of truth. It's not that things are not true or false, but rather what does it matter and why? Does it have to be true in order to have real value and why is truth valuable?
Do you consider yourself as an utilitarian?
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Re: Friedrich Nietzsche and Nihilism

Post by obnoxion »

Boreas wrote: Tue Mar 17, 2020 11:40 am obnoxion kirjoitti: ↑And that has given me the impression that he is much more nuanced thinker than he comes across if read with ubermench-glasses on.
Verily so, yet the übermensch thought is what he is best known for and what makes the core of his thought.
The sharp point of what I meant by ubermench-glasses would be the seemingly common fixation that a (perfect) murder is the apex of freedom. This is depicted masterfully in Hitchcock's "Rope". And although not all succumb to this Rudra's mistake, it is an essential undercurrent that one especially encounters in the wide variety of modern satamisms. And I think it is also behind the collective fascination with detective stories. It is a strange fascination, I think, because murder is actually ugly, empty and also the most enslaving act I can think of. Still it seems that many find life dull without the thought that someone, somewhere might be murdered at this very moment.

This sort of obscurity hampers the reading of Nietzsche.
It has been refreshing to see Nietzsche interpreted from other, more profound and subtle angles in great poetry and art.
One day of Brahma has 14 Indras; his life has 54 000 Indras. One day of Vishnu is the lifetime of Brahma. The lifetime of Vishnu is one day of Shiva.
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Re: Friedrich Nietzsche and Nihilism

Post by Nefastos »

obnoxion wrote: Tue Mar 17, 2020 12:55 pmThe sharp point of what I meant by ubermench-glasses would be the seemingly common fixation that a (perfect) murder is the apex of freedom. [...] It is a strange fascination, I think, because murder is actually ugly, empty and also the most enslaving act I can think of. Still it seems that many find life dull without the thought that someone, somewhere might be murdered at this very moment.


I've always felt that about ninety percent of Dostoevsky's writing is aimed against exactly this idea. Take any of his great post-carceration novels, this is the very idea that comes through sometimes screaming, sometimes whispering, oftentimes both. I am not a historian, not even a dabbler in the history of the 19th century literature, so I do not know whether Dostoevsky was somehow familiar with the ideology of Nietzsche even before his great opuses, but in case the most apparent chronology holds (Dostoevsky's last book came out 1880 and Nietzsche's more radical ideology seems to have blossomed right after that), Dostoevsky seems to have anticipated the problems of this profane & perhaps wrong reading of the "Übermensch". Mayhap the idea was in the air much more intensely than it seems now, and we have at some point learned to attach this philosophy to Nietzsche? My friends who are very much into his philosophy constantly tell me that Nietzsche has been interpreted in a thoroughly mistaken fashion. (What I usually answer is that because he can still be read that way, he is not free of that blame as an ambivalent author. But then they tell me this is because of his sister's editing.)

So it seems that there were walking this ghost of the lofty a(pe)x-murderer in the midst of the Europeans nearing the end of the 19th century. And didn't it get its chance of proving the doctrine of the superman by total violence in the 20th century? The horrible thing is, something similar seems to be happening now.
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Angolmois

Re: Friedrich Nietzsche and Nihilism

Post by Angolmois »

Nefastos wrote: Tue Mar 17, 2020 1:15 pm So it seems that there were walking this ghost of the lofty a(pe)x-murderer in the midst of the Europeans nearing the end of the 19th century. And didn't it get its chance of proving the doctrine of the superman by total violence in the 20th century?
I think it is wrong to blame Nietzsche for the misdeeds of the totalitarian regimes (he was staunchly against statolatry and also preached the assimilation of jews and german), but there are still things that make him a sort of a proto-fascist, for it is without doubt that all national socialists and fascists were nihilists no matter what denomination they payed lip service to. It was kind of an escathology of the superman, justifying Everything done to humanity in the name of the coming "Master race".
Nefastos wrote: Tue Mar 17, 2020 1:15 pm
The horrible thing is, something similar seems to be happening now.
It is the end time communion, the regime of the Antichrist so to speak that is about to become a reality.
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Re: Friedrich Nietzsche and Nihilism

Post by Insanus »

Boreas wrote: Tue Mar 17, 2020 11:49 am
Insanus wrote: Mon Mar 16, 2020 8:47 pmNietzsche has inspired my thinking too also by challenging the value of truth. It's not that things are not true or false, but rather what does it matter and why? Does it have to be true in order to have real value and why is truth valuable?
Do you consider yourself as an utilitarian?
Not exactly. Why?
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