The Star of Azazel - Azazelin Tähti

I have been thinking about this topic for a good while and I'd like to share some thoughts and questions about the matter in this thread.

As some may be well aware, the likes of Guénon and Evola (and the Traditionalist school at large) denied even the possibility of authentic initiation in the modern (and nowadays post-modern) age in the western world (with an exception of traditional Masonry and the Compagonnage in the case of Guénon) because of the lack of initiatic organisations and the regular transmission of the initiatic doctrine. Guénon especially was very strict about the matter and he considered all modern organisations claiming initiation as pseudo-initiatic at best, and counter-initiatic (equal to the downward path of SoA terminology) at worst.

It was the conviction of Guénon also that there is no such thing as pure esoterism outside an exoteric affiliation and he said that most people aspiring to esoterism should first at least to fulfill their exoteric duties, and most would be better to stay as exotericists and not aspire to esoterism at all (this boiling down to so called initiatin qualifications without which initiation will always remain a dead letter and without any use).

Taking no sides in the question, I would like to ask, what kind of possibilities for initiation outside the regular transmission and "apostolic" succesion of the traditional initiatic organisations do you see? Do you think that self-initiation is possible, excluding the most frivolous new age doctrines? Is there such a thing as spontaneous initiation? How do we establish contact with the supreme center of all initiation without the help of a regular organisation that is the transmitter and depository of the initiatic doctrine? What kind of possibilities do you see for initiation in the post-modern age? Are we all doomed to dabble in the darkness of the post-modern world without any hope?

It seems really hard for me to grasp what does it mean for an initiation to be authentic. I get that in previous times there was a sort of an ecological niche in the society (or outside it), that could ease the passing on of a lineage. However I seem to put so much emphasis on the irreducible nature of the motion within the consciousness that it seems almost futile to try to pass on an epiphany so that it would remain unspoiled. It doesn’t take many generations for a message or an idea of any kind to change into a perverse husk of its former self.

That being said, I believe that initiations (as far as I understand the concept) can happen, although it requires a lot of patience, since one has to start from the very, very beginning. As if there never were any initiatic organizations and one would have to start building a temple from scratch. Does it make any sense?

I have given my answer to this question in the topic "Tradition, Tantra and the West": viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1545

But I will elaborate. Mark S. G. Dyzcowski mentions his own spontanous initiation, while reserching the Kubjika traditions in Nepal: "I set out on this journey impelled by the inner call of Kubjika, the goddess of the Malla's priests, as powerful as it has always been to me. This strange inner and secret path led me some years later to the revelation of the identity of Malla's own goddess. I will always remember that event as an overwhelming infusion of energy, a sort of direct initiation by the goddess herself who, I have always felt that she wanted me to know, is pleased" (from "A Journey in the World of the Tantras", (Indica Books, 2004) page 26).

In the same book (pages 48 - 49), he writes: " ...we find confirmed the view of the Tantras which declare 'this knowledge (of reality) has three sources, namely, the teacher, the scripture (sastra), and oneself'. Although the Indian tradition in general mistrusts new ideas and normally attempts to integrate them into what has gone before so that they may be sealed with stamp of authority, great new ideas are born from what is, according to Abhinavagupta, the greatest of the three sources of knowledge, namely, oneself."

And mind you that Mark Dyczowski is both an academic expert on Shaivism, and also a traditional initiate. But in Tantric Buddhism, too, which is puting new roots in the West, HH the Dalai Lama has said that the next DL could be born female outside Tibet - if at all. And Kagya, the lineage of Naropa, Marpa and Milarespa, begun with Tilopa who had no human gurus.

That is one reason I suggested in a recent topic that one might do well to search initiation from some suitable abandoned house (it is also a traditional tantric location for sadhana, and it is a surrounding where every detail might be seen representing a philosophical principle): viewtopic.php?f=73&p=29873#p29873

For in that abandoned location there is only "the greatest of the three sources of knowledge, namely, oneself". And the broken windows let in the wind that can transform - if the inner conditions (namely, saktipata) of the person allow for it - into a warm breath of the Dakini, which is the warmth of the teacher's breath when she whispers the initiatic secret into the neophyte's ear. Finally, the reason why one ought to be alone and keep silent is - as Dyczkowski writes (page 23) - "secrecy fosters and sustains inner power".

Aperiemus wrote: ↑Fri Mar 13, 2020 12:02 am It seems really hard for me to grasp what does it mean for an initiation to be authentic.

I would say that transmission of a non-Human and supra-individual spiritual influence that leads to a veritable metanoia ("change of nature") of the individual would be the standard. This is why I am very sceptical of the possibility of self initiation (when talking about initiation in its strict, demanding sense) , since how could a Human being transcend ones own individual possibilities on their own? This reeks of luciferianism or prometheanism in a bad sense, like baron von Munchausen trying to lift oneself in the air by grabbing oneself from the neck.

Aperiemus wrote: ↑Fri Mar 13, 2020 12:02 amIt doesn’t take many generations for a message or an idea of any kind to change into a perverse husk of its former self.

This is why there have always been very strict standards in the initiatic realm for the preservation and transmission of the doctrines and tradition. It completely rejects any innovation, novelty and wrong kind of individualism.

Aperiemus wrote: ↑Fri Mar 13, 2020 12:02 amThat being said, I believe that initiations (as far as I understand the concept) can happen, although it requires a lot of patience, since one has to start from the very, very beginning. As if there never were any initiatic organizations and one would have to start building a temple from scratch. Does it make any sense?

The problem is, where to build from if one does not have a clear clue about what one is building and where one is heading. For example, literature of the initiatic kind (meaning here as a support of contemplation) remains a dead letter if one doesn't possess any Keys for its understanding. It will most likely only lead to some sort of spurious mysticism which is a totally separate realm from initiation.

Obnoxion, I will have to look closely on tantrism and (Kashmir) Shaivism, since they are mentioned so often here in the forum. The only literature I currently own about the subject is Feuerstein's Tantra which I haven't read yet. It certainly seems a vast and interesting realm to look into.

I'm open for the possibility of a non-tibetan female lama but otherwise Dalai Lama seems to me being vastly influenced by modern western prejudices to take him as an authority.

Boreas wrote: ↑Fri Mar 13, 2020 3:48 pmDalai Lama seems to me being vastly influenced by modern western prejudices to take him as an authority.

I may be wrong, but I'm tending to think that Dalai Lama is not so much influenced by the modern Western prejudices than to using the current cultural milieu as the only possible way of leading the current cultural mind onwards. This is the path of tantra, of the Kali Yuga: to use whichever methods possible to encourage "the light". Such a path is unorthodoxical by nature, and such is also the way of the Star of Azazel.

Boreas wrote: ↑Fri Mar 13, 2020 3:30 pmThis reeks of luciferianism or prometheanism in a bad sense, like baron von Munchausen trying to lift oneself in the air by grabbing oneself from the neck.

This forum is filled with reek of Luciferianism & Prometheanism, since these are the Masters whom we follow.

I understand what you are saying, though: by "a bad sense" you mean the kâma-manasic instead of manasic individuation and self-empowerment. In this I agree; those are easily picked and infertile fruits which have little to do with actual esotericism.

I don't know much of traditionalism and therefore excuse my clumsy attempt attending this discourse.
I think our general zeitgeist and mindset differs greatly from the past.
When we have this sense of insecurity of future and unknown it becomes kind of fantasy to want to grasp on the past.
It would be nice if there were initiative traditions still around us and masters taught their pupils their skills and knowledge and even if this initiation would be very hard and rough at the end of the years the person who made it through hardship becomes a next generation master. In modern era this kind of validation doesn't exists: you never become master until very old age or maybe not even then.
In older times within music (for example in Persia) it was enough if person could memorize to certain level the music and this person was granted status of "Master".
One learns technique and pre-requisite melodies and patterns and then this person preserves it and continues to continue this tradition to next generation.
Nowadays this doesn't exist and I would argue that at least within music the requirements are much higher than ever before.
Note: I use music as an analogy because in traditional discourse it is seen as metaphysical art which has its own secrets.
In modern times mechanical aspects are revealed and taught and it's up to an apprentice to find out the inner secrets as no one teaches them.
The secrets and initiations exists but they have changed the place and are "truly hidden".
The person individually doesn't initiate oneself but the World does.

Very shortly put: I would still highlight certain humbleness towards the times we live in.

Nefastos wrote: ↑Fri Mar 13, 2020 4:07 pm
I may be wrong, but I'm tending to think that Dalai Lama is not so much influenced by the modern Western prejudices than to using the current cultural milieu as the only possible way of leading the current cultural mind onwards.

This might be true. I recall reading some Buddhist "prophecies" of the Kali Yuga that the then current DL has to make compromises regarding tradition. I just hope it won't lead to diluting the essentials or throwing out the baby with the bathwater. I can't recall the source now, though.

Nefastos wrote: ↑Fri Mar 13, 2020 4:07 pm This forum is filled with reek of Luciferianism & Prometheanism, since these are the Masters whom we follow.

Yes, and I wouldn't be here if I didn't have high regard for the Master, and this is why I wrote them without a capital letter. This would be a case of another topic but in a sense the whole SoA system and terminology seems to be a lot about re-defining - or taking them back to their original roots - the concept of Satanism / Luciferianism.

Nefastos wrote: ↑Fri Mar 13, 2020 4:07 pm I understand what you are saying, though: by "a bad sense" you mean the kâma-manasic instead of manasic individuation and self-empowerment. In this I agree; those are easily picked and infertile fruits which have little to do with actual esotericism.

Exactly. I have a veritable aversion towards most forms of luciferianism and satanism nowadays, since they seem to be about (nietzschean?) titanism or worldly empowerment, if not something worse.

Kavi wrote: ↑Fri Mar 13, 2020 4:16 pm I don't know much of traditionalism and therefore excuse my clumsy attempt attending this discourse.

I didn't intend to make this a discussion about traditionalism, I only presented the views of Guénon as an example and a point of reference. One can think whatever one likes about the traditionalist school but at least they take the issues seriously.

Kavi wrote: ↑Fri Mar 13, 2020 4:16 pmVery shortly put: I would still highlight certain humbleness towards the times we live in.

The stakes couldn't be higher and the dangers are highlighted.

Boreas wrote: ↑Fri Mar 13, 2020 3:48 pm Obnoxion, I will have to look closely on tantrism and (Kashmir) Shaivism, since they are mentioned so often here in the forum. The only literature I currently own about the subject is Feuerstein's Tantra which I haven't read yet. It certainly seems a vast and interesting realm to look into.

Then you might like to check out this topic, "Vigyan Bhairav Tantra":
viewtopic.php?f=72&t=1136

Also, there are a lot of books available free in the "Internet Archives" -webpage on Kashmir Shaivism

obnoxion wrote: ↑Fri Mar 13, 2020 10:29 pmThen you might like to check out this topic, "Vigyan Bhairav Tantra":
viewtopic.php?f=72&t=1136

Thanks, I'll look into it while browsing other topics as well.

obnoxion wrote: ↑Fri Mar 13, 2020 10:29 pmAlso, there are a lot of books available free in the "Internet Archives" -webpage on Kashmir Shaivism

OK! I went ahead and ordered Swami Laksmanjoo's treatise on Kashmir Shaivism today.

Based on fra Nefastos' answer Tantrism being about taking whatever method is possible and using it for spiritual progress, I'm an accomplished Tantric already!

Boreas wrote: ↑Fri Mar 13, 2020 11:04 pm I'm an accomplished Tantric already!

One can project frustration into these Kali Yuga times... at least I have done it myself.

I have only questions to you, answer if you like:

If you were hypotetically to receive/undergo an initiation that you could know to be 100% valid, what would it be like? Who could be the initiator/Master? How you would recognize him? What tradition would (s)he represent (if any)? What kind of relation you'd be with each other? In what time/space location would the initiation take place? In what dimension?

Or, hypotetically again, if you'd know for certain that spiritual initiation is impossible during the Kali Yuga, what would it mean regarding your spiritual work? Would it be in vain?

I know that these questions are quite personal, maybe I should stay out of the "Philosophy"-section of the board.