The Star of Azazel - Azazelin Tähti

Nefastos wrote:How do you feel about the spiritual side, possibilities & problems of suffering?

Suffering is one of my main interests. Be the perspective psychological or leaning more towards occultism. I see this interest coming mainly from two sources: 1) my own life-history that has been something else than easy and pleasurable, and 2) buddhism (that is something I feel familiar and I have interest to). I try to see suffering as "gift of Satan". Where is suffering, there's something very important happening. Possibilities lies in the suffering's potential to be great source of strength and growing. Problems lie in the area where suffering becomes important in itself, and person doesn't see it to be indicator for something beyond it. Also when person starts to seek pain and suffering, because it earlier has been catalyst for something good. Don't seek suffering, be happy, suffering will appear when it's time.

Kenazis wrote:I try to see suffering as "gift of Satan".

Indeed, I remember your great article in the Unseen Fire 1. I should stress that I have no problem with analytical & metaphysical ideas, like the ones you presented there. What I am against is the zeal for suffering that we see in fanatics & masochists. The reason is actually the same what you said:

Kenazis wrote:Where is suffering, there's something very important happening.

– For I think that suffering is an alert that something is "too important" to be pushed with force; things that are happening are against the natural order somehow. That might be very good & needed, and this brings the problem of suffering so close to occultism & Satanism: this "against the order" is what seemingly happens in the liminal phases, the twilight zones, which always surround the esoteric depth in one way or the other.

The problem is, I think that often the worst possible approach one can take to those liminal phases, the phases of transition, is violence; that we force to happen something that should not come to pass (yet). Physical pain, the clearest example of suffering, is almost always an alert that we are doing something wrong. In a lesser degree, the same goes with psychological anguish, extreme grief or sorrow, and so on. These things come, that is usually unavoidable if one wants to be truthful & honest in his dealings with life's mysteries, but glorifying them will lead him down the very dark paths eventually.

In Argarizim (for example) I wrote that the path of faqirism – meaning there the violent forcing of one's own physical body as a way to occult enlightenment – is closed in our cultural epoch, and should not be taken. As always, there must be some exceptions. But as a law, adoring suffering is part of being drown in the whirlpool of egotism, dulling oneself to the sacred Otherness, which cries its outcast anguish in the feelings of suffering. By shutting off that negative response to suffering and turning its original message (which is: "do not go there, not like that") upside down is to turn one's intuition backwards. Also, while at first one might be eager to suffer himself while still retaining some intellectual if not truly empathetic feelings of love for the others, not wanting them to suffer, that too will change in time. When first one has shut off his own alarm system, he will be ready to "help" the others with similar tools, and thus is the descending path closing to its very end in the avitchi-nirvana of accepting the eternal torment for oneself, in order to "help" the others with the karmic suffering "they need to develop". This is the ultimate mistake.

This is the reason I so abhor those "little vehicle" religions in cases when they adore suffering, be they outwardly Protestant (like in Kierkegaard's text I mentioned), Buddhist, Tantric, atheistic, or other.

Nefastos wrote:
Physical pain, the clearest example of suffering, is almost always an alert that we are doing something wrong. In a lesser degree, the same goes with psychological anguish, extreme grief or sorrow, and so on. These things come, that is usually unavoidable if one wants to be truthful & honest in his dealings with life's mysteries, but glorifying them will lead him down the very dark paths eventually.

I want to point that even I think above mentioned is true, there's that "growing pain" that happens when you are pushing yourself over your comfort-zone. In physical training this is most easily to be seen, but in mental-field it's also the same. Problem again lies in understanding of "right pain" and "wrong pain". Another problem is that person starts to demand these on others.

Pain is natural as is pleasure. It seems that this is something that modern world doesn't collectively understand. Pain is an indicator, and many times it is indicator of something good, and often something bad. My point here is that it seems that many people thinks pain = bad/evil/non-natural etc. And I think this causes, or at least is sustaining the pain.

Nefastos wrote: By shutting off that negative response to suffering and turning its original message (which is: "do not go there, not like that") upside down is to turn one's intuition backwards. Also, while at first one might be eager to suffer himself while still retaining some intellectual if not truly empathetic feelings of love for the others, not wanting them to suffer, that too will change in time. When first one has shut off his own alarm system, he will be ready to "help" the others with similar tools, and thus is the descending path closing to its very end in the avitchi-nirvana of accepting the eternal torment for oneself, in order to "help" the others with the karmic suffering "they need to develop". This is the ultimate mistake. This is the reason I so abhor those "little vehicle" religions in cases when they adore suffering, be they outwardly Protestant (like in Kierkegaard's text I mentioned), Buddhist, Tantric, atheistic, or other.

This was good "summary". I have always liked Theravada's to the point methods, but also same time felt that they have gone a bit wrong with their vision. What you explained above is one important point of that wrong direction.

Interesting and relevant conversation, though I find that I can't formulate my thoughts very well at the moment. Perhaps I can partake on a later date.

An important discussion for sure. My views largely echo those already posted, but I'll try to add my thoughts anyways.

Suffering is an unavoidable part of life, this we all know. The difficulty then lies in how to approach it, since it's not exactly a pleasant experiece while it is happening.

I also try and view suffering as the gift of Satan, as Kenazis has written. I think this is a beautiful way to put it, and one that stuck with me since reading the Unseen Fire article. It is that great adversarial current which presents challenges to us. But this suffering and these challenges are not inherantly negative. With challenges comes the opportunity for growth and development, so Satan can also be viewed as the great initiator of mankind, which I recall reading from Nefastos somewhere - this has also stuck with me. I think that the key to being able to grow from suffering is understanding. By understanding the causes of suffering, and how they are affecting you particularily one can begin to work to overcome them. This requires active participation in the suffering, but it is in this that there there is great potential for the person to grow. As has been said, something important is happening. This is a huge and extremely difficult part of the Great Work in my eyes, and one that hits close to home for me. But easier said than done.

But just because there is a potential for development in suffering does not mean one should seek it out. I think the masochistic, adoration of suffering comes from a misunderstanding of it's nature. To actively seek it out might stem from egotism, or from that desire for challenge/growth. But I think because it is self-inflicted and not occuring naturally, that any growth is unlikely to occur. One just ends up causing pain to oneself and those around them, and ends up going down a dark path as has been said here. The desired strength stems from weathering suffering as it occurs in ones life, not from seeking it out.

I think another approach to suffering, and one that I see often, is the desire to avoid it at all costs. This applies more to mental suffering than physical. But often I see people completely close themselves off from their thoughts and emotions because they are afraid to be vulnerable, and afraid of the pain that could result from that vulnerability. To me this is no less harmful of an approach than the adoration of suffering, because it stunts any growth, limits ones life and is a form of self-inflicted suffering in itself.

And so from my perspective, there are two extreme ends of the spectrum - those who adore suffering, those who avoid it at all cost, and then the middle path - those who can acknowlege suffering for what it is. But rather than fall Into the trap of pessimism (suffering is unavoidable, life is meaningless etc) one must strive to take suffering as it comes, learn from it as best one can, and strive to grow and overcome. Again, easier said than done of course.

A quick aside about physical suffering: I broke my collarbone in August, and am now almost recovered from it. It was the first bone I've ever broken. I mention it because I found it interesting to note just how interconnected all the elements of the lower threefold key are. Discord in the body also causing discord in the mind and emotions. And of course discord in the mind and emotions could surely effect the body in time too.

One more aside, I really need to stop trying to post from the unreliable internet at my house. I click post, the connection drops, and suddenly my work is gone forever. THAT is true suffering at least it makes me spend more time with these thoughts.

I hope this adds a bit to the conversation, and sorry for the length!

Good points, ShieldAnvil.

I find that when I face mental suffering and it feels too much it is possible to find solace and focus in prayer work. So basically I say the prayers over and over again, and focus on the master; I yield. As I stop fighting against the suffering and let it wash over me, often anxiety or hatred for example seems to become somehow purified. I am then able to more easily distance myself from the situation and see things from a wider angle. So I am no longer a petty, meowling creature pining over self-centered suffering or hurt, but I am able to look at the bigger picture. Often feelings of empathy and love towards others are increased, or I become calmer.

That is, when it works. It doesn't work every time, but I am certainly learning even if my steps are very small.

I remember Nefastos posting on a thread somewhere about how the moral puritanism of the Right Hand path spiritually maims people who follow it to the letter. Based on my own personal experiences and the similar experiences of others, it would seem to me that the adoration of suffering would be the spiritual maiming equivalent of the Left Hand Path.

The beginning of one's occult development seems to always start with feelings of being deeply connected to very primal, pure forces within/beyond the world while often simultaneously feeling intense pangs of suffering either 1) because these feelings cannot be sustained for long periods of time at the beginning of one's spiritual development 2) because these feelings cannot easily be articulated, if at all, to the majority of human beings one will encounter. As a result, those early blissful feelings of spiritual connection are also paired with the feelings of alienation from the world and a sense of futility in not only in failing to sustain one's own unity with the Absolute, but failing to help others to this sense of harmony when you experience it and they do not. This is, more or less, the first paradox in spiritual development.

In the case of the Left Hand path, these feelings are first internalized until they are intensified enough to be projected outwards, and then these feelings of suffering are based around the tyrannical rule of a creator deity who has forced them back onto the wheel of existence again and again, that the majority of mankind is complacent and thus deserves its own suffering, and that in order obtain that primal connection of bliss (which has also been externalized as something distant and separate from the rest of the world at this point) once and for all, the level of existential suffering must be increased to such unendurable points that it would be able to cancel out and destroy creation altogether.

This seems to me to be the central goal of the paths of descension; that spiritual work is not a liberation from suffering but a liberation by suffering in order to reach a sense of unity that can never be achieved because those initial feelings of futility and inner turmoil were never reconciled (this is the final paradox of the Left Hand Path when both paths are still viewed as totally separate from one another). It is the attitude towards suffering that determines where the individual's spiritual journey will take them; one can either choose to adore suffering and continually subject themselves to greater degrees of it, or choose to accept suffering and work towards transcending it.

In early stages of my teenage times, all suffering I had gone through and also the suffering I had witnessed around myself and world had lead me to question and this questioning lead me to hate God. This hatred towards God had gradually lead me to the path I am following now. I see all the suffering that I go through or went through as a part of the Path. I have realised this not very long time ago.

Bhasma wrote: one can either choose to adore suffering and continually subject themselves to greater degrees of it, or choose to accept suffering and work towards transcending it.

Well...as long as one doesn't care about anyone else, then maybe.

Follower of the downward path could quite easily just answer that accepting suffering and working towards transcending it either equals or necessarily leads to the adoration of suffering and continually subjecting oneself to greater degrees of it because of truthfulness or even because of empathy. How can we accept something we haven't even experienced? By accepting other peoples suffering? And transcending that without relating to the pain they feel? Why would someone with zero experience understand the problem or have the slightest clue about what should be done? Point being: if I don't personally relate to the suffering of the world, there is no way I could even begin to solve the problem & ergo, the more I work towards accepting and transcending suffering, the more I hurt myself in the process. Hell is other people.

Nefastos wrote:[ When first one has shut off his own alarm system, he will be ready to "help" the others with similar tools, and thus is the descending path closing to its very end in the avitchi-nirvana of accepting the eternal torment for oneself, in order to "help" the others with the karmic suffering "they need to develop". This is the ultimate mistake.

Dulling oneself to the otherness is the ultimate mistake, adoration of suffering doesn't require that. Actually adoration of suffering as suffering requires quite strong sense of empathy and nuanced psyche. I don't think there is a sadist who doesn't understand that he's actually causing very personal suffering to someone. That's the whole point. Me doing this to you or vice versa in case of masochism, not just "sorrow" in a vacuum experienced by someone somewhere. Fakir doesn't "conquer suffering", he just temporarily (or permanently in more tragic cases) shuts down the system that experiences it. It's an ok practice if overwhelmed by chaotic experiences, but I guess it does more harm than good for most people.