Tolkien and Lord of the Rings

Discussion on literature other than by the Star of Azazel.
Angolmois

Re: Tolkien and Lord of the Rings

Post by Angolmois »

Nefastos wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:01 pm Even though Tolkien indeed wrote to children, he also was clear in his opinion that children were no idiots, but an audience who deserved serious, well-weighed, intelligent stories.
This is the reason why Mauri Kunnas became my bete noire when he made that horrible Koirien Kalevala (Kalevala of Dogs) to children. I remember coming home from work in 2009 exhausted from the day at the youth centre and got completely enraged when my ex-wife had bought the Mauri Kunnas calendar where the heroes of Kalevala were portrayed as stupid and childish dogs. My ex couldn't understand what the hell I was enraged with but tore the calendar to pieces right away, mad at me in turn. Then I spent the remaining night crying like a child and between moments of weeping I yelled to my wife how everything is going down the drain. A little unbalanced I was.
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Smaragd
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Re: Tolkien and Lord of the Rings

Post by Smaragd »

Nefastos wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:01 pm
Objection, your Honors. Even though Tolkien indeed wrote to children, he also was clear in his opinion that children were no idiots, but an audience who deserved serious, well-weighed, intelligent stories.
The precision of nerdsmanship and knowledge of lore and the writers stance is much appreciated. I must point that although we were talking about childishness of the movies and how it sort of belonged to it, being that the book also had more emphasised fairytale aspects, I meant the fairytale aspect in no pejorative meaning, but belonging to very deep part of story telling acknowledging that children are not idiots. But indeed the movies partly do aim for audience that is not as wise as children are in their potential. The reason why I find "childish" fairytale movies so relaxing is that the presence of archetypal ideas are present in a sort of nurturing way, and it is like being home. Even when there would be some very rough and idiotic parts to the movies, it is like the coarse physical world just having those not so refined forms in its forming the lower vessel.

The same goes for the ”superficial” beauty of the movies, which in turn reveals great depths to one who has patience to make careful observations.
Rúnatýr wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:33 pm Koirien Kalevala (Kalevala of Dogs) to children.
I'm such a heretic that this is probably the only Kalevala I've read from the first page to the last. :D
"Would to God that all the Lord's people were Prophets”, Numbers 11:29 as echoed by William Blake
Angolmois

Re: Tolkien and Lord of the Rings

Post by Angolmois »

Smaragd wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:07 pm I'm such a heretic that this is probably the only Kalevala I've read from the first page to the last. :D
O' you shall burn!
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Nefastos
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Re: Tolkien and Lord of the Rings

Post by Nefastos »

Smaragd wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:07 pmThe reason why I find "childish" fairytale movies so relaxing is that the presence of archetypal ideas are present in a sort of nurturing way, and it is like being home. [...] The same goes for the ”superficial” beauty of the movies, which in turn reveals great depths to one who has patience to make careful observations.

I am a great admirer of the nurturing aspect of surficial beauty myself. The anguish only comes when the surficial aspect has been used to replace the inner aspect that has been there, but has then been removed, like in Tolkien adaptations. For one can also take a book and make differences to the story in order to make an equally great movie: e.g. Clockwork Orange. It just demands taste, and that is a rare commodity. (Bad Taste does not suffice.) Making parodies &c. is a different thing altogether, since parody is its own thing, which no one should confuse with the original story.

Although parody & the thing are rarely completely separable in the eye of the beholder. Sigh! Gone are the halcyon days of early new Satanism, when black metal artists took their names from Tolkien, while being no less sinister & insane because of that.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
Kenazis
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Re: Tolkien and Lord of the Rings

Post by Kenazis »

Nefastos wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:18 am Sigh! Gone are the halcyon days of early new Satanism, when black metal artists took their names from Tolkien, while being no less sinister & insane because of that.
Oh! Those ancient days when black metal was music of the night and shadows (and not headlining in daytime at big festivals) and LOTR was just book-formed gateway to other, better world. I miss back to the seventies...
"We live for the woods and the moon and the night"
Mars
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Re: Tolkien and Lord of the Rings

Post by Mars »

Personally I’m surprisingly not that bothered with the shallowness of the characters in the LotR-films, since I sort of take it for granted in films made from books. I’ve given up the depth in films long ago and prefer aesthetics and decent acting, and those the films have plenty. Besides, I always thought that there should’ve been six films instead of three, as three films, though they’re long, can't be nowhere near long enough to handle LotR with any type of depth. And, as we know, The Lord of the Rings is not a trilogy but a single novel that is divided into six books and released as three physical books.

And yes, “made for children” does not equal being "childish", meaning superficial and shallow!
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Re: Tolkien and Lord of the Rings

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I'll pass on the billion dollar budget LoTR series, the first season of which will soon shit in the souls of all fans. I've heard it's GoTized, which means sex and violence. It's doomed to be garbage nobody needs, like Star Trek Discovery, for example. Don't care. I've read LoTR just once, but I've read A Song Of Ice And Fire (the books GoT was based on) four times. I expect nothing good and I'll not be watching House Of The Dragon either. I hope they don't graverape Ursula Le Guin next. They probably will, though. Then there's of course the Wheel Of Time too and many others, just waiting to be "discovered" (or maybe they're doing that as we speak, I'm not gonna check IMDB, don't need to know). Will it ever end, asks an innocent little ant, in the demiurges magnifying glass.
Kenazis
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Re: Tolkien and Lord of the Rings

Post by Kenazis »

Benemal wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 9:46 pm I'll pass on the billion dollar budget LoTR series, the first season of which will soon shit in the souls of all fans. I've heard it's GoTized, which means sex and violence. It's doomed to be garbage nobody needs, like Star Trek Discovery, for example. Don't care. I've read LoTR just once, but I've read A Song Of Ice And Fire (the books GoT was based on) four times. I expect nothing good and I'll not be watching House Of The Dragon either. I hope they don't graverape Ursula Le Guin next. They probably will, though. Then there's of course the Wheel Of Time too and many others, just waiting to be "discovered" (or maybe they're doing that as we speak, I'm not gonna check IMDB, don't need to know). Will it ever end, asks an innocent little ant, in the demiurges magnifying glass.
I like Star Trek Discovery, so maybe this new series works for me then. I have been thinking to read Song of Ice and Fire, maybe I will. I don't remember the book's name by Le Guin I read, but it was lousy as hell. Is it impossible to do good enough movie or tv-series from the book you love? I think that LOTR animation from 70's is great.
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Smaragd
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Re: Tolkien and Lord of the Rings

Post by Smaragd »

Kenazis wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 11:15 pm I think that LOTR animation from 70's is great.
I remember being a child when that came out from the TV one weekend. Was quite mesmerized by the Black Riders and the hellish sceneries flowing from one to another. I took a peak to it as a young adult and was surprised to find there were tanks and other modern war techonology in it. Or perhaps the copy was mixed with some other movie by the same animator(s)?
"Would to God that all the Lord's people were Prophets”, Numbers 11:29 as echoed by William Blake
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Benemal
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Re: Tolkien and Lord of the Rings

Post by Benemal »

To clarify, I just looked into it, the LoTR series is not a re-creation of the book, but takes place thousands of years before. An entirely new thing I might watch, as a guilty weed pleasure, despite the obvious defacing of a cultural legacy.
I'm now contributing to this becoming a nerd forum, but I guess my true nature can't stay hidden forever.
Kenazis wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 11:15 pm I like Star Trek Discovery
You'll like hell, then. It'll be on repeat there, always, until the end of time. The demiurge AI can also create new seasons, to infinity. The entertainment will never end.
Kenazis wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 11:15 pm I think that LOTR animation from 70's is great.
Ralph Bakshi did two pretty great fantasy animations. Wizards (1977) and Fire & Ice (1983). Those are both better, than the LoTR one (not that it's bad either). Wizards is set a million years into the future. Cyborg mutants, who worship Hitler as god, and the elf and gnome wizards of the shroomy woods, are at perpetual war. Not really for kids. This is the one Smaragd saw. Fire & Ice is a sword & sorcery film, done with rotoscoping technique. Both get nerdcommended.
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