Tolkien and Lord of the Rings

Discussion on literature other than by the Star of Azazel.
Fomalhaut
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Tolkien and Lord of the Rings

Post by Fomalhaut »

Under this topic we could discuss about Tolkien and Lord of the Rings. Have you read any other book from Tolkien? What do you think about Lord of the Rings?
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Nefastos
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Re: Tolkien and Lord of the Rings

Post by Nefastos »

One of the brothers in our lodge always told me to finish a book I was writing about the symbolism in Tolkien's Lord of the Rings; he thought it would be most interesting of the brotherhood's publications. :mrgreen: But although the topic is fascinating, I didn't consider it as priority, and the text was left unfinished because of the lack of time. [edit: My & sister Astraya's commentary on the Lord of the Rings was finally published in Finnish under the name "Menneisyyden varjo" in 2018.]

I consider fictive literature as mythology when it opens up to talk about mythological issues, & the author is skilled enough to get attuned with the archetypical set of events. I think John Tolkien was such an author, and that his masterpiece embodies the Right Hand Path mythology for the modern day. The same can be said about Lovecraft considering the Left Hand Path mythology. These two gentlemen have dreamt real epical pieces for the modern man & woman to study & to identify with. (That reminds me of a bonus question I'd like ask: With what character in the original novel it is easiest for you to identify with...?)

It's interesting to see how Tolkien's work reflects many usual Right Hand Path approaches. The golden ring of Ego is the most evil thing in the world (Sauron), the White Aspect of power that focuses on diplomacy & intellect is seen as fallen (Saruman), all depiction or even a hint of sexuality was absolutely forbidden (only male protagonists), technology was seen as a bad thing (cf. common traditionalist view), use of magic was suppressed (see how Gandalf seeks to avoid it whenever possible), &c. All of these are very theosophical, the Right Hand Path occultism related approaches today.

Yeah, I really love that book, it's easily in my top ten novel favourites. An author can always reach accurate symbolistic level in his or her works if true to one's calling & inspiration.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Jiva
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Re: Tolkien and Lord of the Rings

Post by Jiva »

Well, the following is a famous Tolkien quote on the subject of religion that usually gets mentioned in such discussions:
The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision. That is why I have not put in, or have cut out, practically all references to anything like 'religion', to cults or practices, in the imaginary world. For the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism.
People inserting their own political or New Age metaphors annoyed Tolkien, which is one of the reasons why he made the Silmarillion so Christian regarding the actual creation of the world and the development of evil.

Funny that you mention Lovecraft along with Tokien as I think they are both terrible writers – Tom Bombadil anyone :lol: – who I nevertheless enjoy due to their extraordinary imaginations. I haven't read anything from either author for years actually, although I seem to remember identifying mostly with Boromir and Faramir. The first time I read it I distinctly remember being annoyed that Radagast wasn't featured more prominently. He was basically the only 'good guy' who didn't do what Gandalf wanted.
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Nefastos
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Re: Tolkien and Lord of the Rings

Post by Nefastos »

The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work


Yeah, although I'm thankful that Tolkien was careful not to underline that, unlike that awful Lewis. His so called novels made my brain bleed.

Jiva wrote:Funny that you mention Lovecraft along with Tokien as I think they are both terrible writers – Tom Bombadil anyone :lol: – who I nevertheless enjoy due to their extraordinary imaginations.


Lovecraft really was a terrible writer while he was a terrific dreamer; Tolkien's writing as well as his imagination I actually enjoy. But my personal taste admittedly has more than a little of punk ideology in it: rough edges often feel like a great part of an opus. And the example of Vergil, Gogol & Kafka (who all wished to burn their imperfect masterpieces) seems to dictate that as a good thing too... :?

Jiva wrote:I haven't read anything from either author for years actually, although I seem to remember identifying mostly with Boromir and Faramir.


Here's once again that myth of the brothers (often depicted as twins) of which one is good & one is bad; another falls & another survives. I think the theme is sometimes taken as the kâma-manas/manas -aspectual difference in human being. It's interesting to note that Boromir perishes right at the river bank point in which the Ring-bearer (the Self) gets the final reassuring insight (because of him), & after which starts the most oppressing, demanding part of his journey through the desolated lands without anything but the most dense help he can get, so to say.

For although -

Jiva wrote:People inserting their own political or New Age metaphors annoyed Tolkien


- I am a follower of the Jungian/spiritual universalist idea that the archetypes do manifest through any fiction, whether that is the intention of an author or not. Actually, in latter case the channel is usually better, because the writer doesn't reflect his work in a symbolistic light so self-consciously, which eliminates most of his personal errors from the work. "Occult" authors usually write awful supposedly symbolistic novels, because they think they can see through their own symbolism, which hardly ever is the case.

When reading Tolkien's foreword to Lord of the Rings, I think we also see that his main annoyance seems to be about people who read his books as critics to something (e.g. politics as you said), projecting their own idealism into his prose. Symbol hunt of the esotericists is, in my opinion, a little different from that, because it's always multifaceted, & leans on the subconscious agency.

Jiva wrote:The first time I read it I distinctly remember being annoyed that Radagast wasn't featured more prominently. He was basically the only 'good guy' who didn't do what Gandalf wanted.


Yeah, Radagast's like St. Francis of Middle Earth, the true rebel against patriarchal oppression! I loved him for his affection for birds, too. But what really interests us hard core Tolkienists is - what were the blue wizards doing??
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Insanus
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Re: Tolkien and Lord of the Rings

Post by Insanus »

Nefastos wrote: "Occult" authors usually write awful supposedly symbolistic novels, because they think they can see through their own symbolism, which hardly ever is the case.
I think this is because in trying to see through their own symbolism, they actually "filter" all of it through kama manas. This seems to be the case often times with bad poets too: instead of letting everything come to their vision in it's pure form, they force it in kama manasic shell & therefore the result is clever in it's own way, but not very meaningful in other ways.
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Nefastos
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Re: Tolkien and Lord of the Rings

Post by Nefastos »

Insanus wrote:I think this is because in trying to see through their own symbolism, they actually "filter" all of it through kama manas. This seems to be the case often times with bad poets too: instead of letting everything come to their vision in it's pure form, they force it in kama manasic shell & therefore the result is clever in it's own way, but not very meaningful in other ways.


I agree. Regarding to the hypothesis from the Ages of Man the periods of 14-28 are about actualizing one's manasic & buddhic principles, which are most soulful part of him or her, giving the most straightforward inspiration from those spiritual planes. After that comes the ages during which one becomes (or tries to become) a solid person / solidify one's work, which is a great thing, but not nearly so artistically interesting. The manas-buddhi-inspiration is still there, but the focus has moved elsewhere, so the flow of inspiration might often be harder to channel.

It certainly seems that many a poet (or even a musician) have made their most inspirational works before their thirties, and after that, much is about riding that wave that has already been unleashed. If at their youth people leave their inspiration unfollowed, it will be extremely hard - if not actually impossible - to find it later. Isn't that also one reason behind the anguish of the so called 30's crisis? One might feel as if having been unable to unlock one's possibilities, "and now it might be too late!"

Luckily, there'll be another chance for that kind of work when one reaches the age of 56. :)

...Which accidentally seems to bring us back to the topic, since Tolkien seems to be exactly in the middle of that second manas-buddhi-cycle when the Lord of the Rings got published. (Born 1892, LOTR published 1954-1955. Still, it was written mainly in the "solid" years; the ones working on kâmic/kâma manasic principles.)
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Heith
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Re: Tolkien and Lord of the Rings

Post by Heith »

Jiva wrote: Tom Bombadil anyone :lol:
What?!! This is the best character of the whole book! It's a bit of a deus ex machina but still awesome, a random psychedelic encounter in the woods. I liked Radagast as well, but wizards by default are great.

With that said I confess I didn't really enjoy Lord of the Rings when I read it some ten years ago. But maybe I'd feel differently about it now.
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Re: Tolkien and Lord of the Rings

Post by Cancer »

So I didn't have to start this thread myself.

Lord of the Rings might have been the first book that I read by myself and truly enjoyed. The Silmarillion followed soon after, and much of my time as a kid was spent reading them over and over again, finding more information about Tolkien's world, learning about the Elvish languages and alphabets etc. (When I was ten to eleven years old, I had notebooks for writing in Cirth runes, and even today I take it as a blow to my self-respect that I can't speak any Quenya :D.) In short, LOTR and the Silmarillion are almost like sacred books for me, and I'm not kidding: I feel connected to Tolkien's mythology in a way that cannot be very different from that experienced by someone who believes in a "real" mythology. There is a difference, of course, since we live in the modern world, but that doesn't affect the feeling itself, only the way I relate to it.

Strangely enough, I have no idea which LOTR-character I identify with. That might be because there are no real antiheroes in the book (meaning not antagonists but good guys who have some serious flaw), like Fëanor or Túrin in the Silmarillion. In LOTR, the world is actually far more black-and-white than in the earlier, more archaic legends. I guess that, too, can be seen as a Right Hand Path-thing.

In part because of this, I value the Silmarillion more as a work of art, although I find equal enjoyment in reading the books. The story of the Elves' exile and war against Morgoth is darker and has more scope than the story of LOTR, and it is, most importantly, told in an altogether different mode, a purely mythical one. This means that the action takes place as if at a distance: it has always already happened, in the beginning of time maybe, and so there is no suspense - the reader knows what to expect. Paradoxically, it is this very certainty that makes the story so compelling. Whenever I read about the fall of Gondolin or Fingolfin facing Morgoth in single combat a part of me hopes and almost manages to believe that the good guys will win, while another knows (and would know even if I hadn't read the book before) that they will not, cannot. This contrast is the essence of tragedy - and of myth in general, since in the certainty of defeat there is always also the certainty that life will go on. True myth makes us affirm both of these views. It shows us that our world is a hell, and that there is nothing to worry about.

LOTR has different merits, of which I can say less, because, when analysing books, I tend to focus more on their literary form than their content (and form-wise LOTR is just another novel, although very long and well-written). It would be really interesting to read Nefastos' commentary if he ever finishes it, since that kind of 'symbol-hunt' is not really my thing.
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Nefastos
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Re: Meaningful Work Under Difficult Circumstances

Post by Nefastos »

[Discussion moved here from the Meaningful Work Under Difficult Circumstances thread.]
Mars wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 11:35 am
Polyhymnia wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 12:29 amWhen I first joined the brotherhood, one of the ways my energy shifted was in a full out emotional purge that was pure anguish to go through. It seemed as though every hurt I had experienced, both very deep and shallow, throughout the entirety of my life in this body, came to the surface and bubbled over in a period of several agonizing weeks. I hadn't experienced the urge to self-pity ever so strongly in my life as I did for those few weeks, but I was able to address each wound, one by one, head on, and clean and bandage them. When the purge was done, I was able to begin healing, and that was the day I truly felt free within my Work. And now, when difficulties arise, I try to address them immediately in the moment, knowing that those difficulties are fleeting but the Work is eternal. Then I take several deep breaths, and do what needs to be done, for nothing truly worth something comes easily.


This sounds familiar (although I'm not a member of the brotherhood). I feel like I'm also going through something like this, although in my case it started in the fall of 2019 and still isn't through! (Although it may finally be easing its grip a bit). It's been very intense, and the start was intense as well (one Sunday afternoon, watching a movie, suddenly feeling like someone was squeezing my chest and head with a hydraulic press). I believe that these purges are essential and they just have to be endured, to let them happen.

This is a lovely thread and the topic is very important, since difficult circumstances are so common to the occult aspirants. To me the most important thing is to hold on to the lofty spiritual ideals, never to lose sight of them. The question of how they can be applied to this or that situation then becomes quite clear, as if the ideal itself gives the answer. I try to be like Aragorn, who "shall die as one of them" if that's what it takes!


I love your quote, Mars. We have so intense threads here that some Tolkien is definitely needed every now & then.

In one of our preliminary aspect practices I once did a What Would Gandalf Do archetype practice for some weeks.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
Mars
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Re: Meaningful Work Under Difficult Circumstances

Post by Mars »

Nefastos wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 12:55 pm In one of our preliminary aspect practices I once did a What Would Gandalf Do archetype practice for some weeks.
No joke: I've sometimes wondered in some difficult situations what would Dale Cooper do if he were in this situation instead of me.
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