The Star of Azazel - Azazelin Tähti

Benemal wrote: ↑Wed Mar 18, 2020 1:51 amI don't want to get political, but the third world war will also be caused by the Chinese government.

They are hardly alone in the political mess that can transform into a next great war. Every government of the world is involved. We are all to blame.

Ave wrote: ↑Tue Mar 17, 2020 9:57 pm Here in Finland the official justification for the restrictions has been that we are "protecting the weak" (the sick, the elderly). Seriously, if I was old and sick I wouldn't want the rest of the society to conform like this because of my state. And in the end the corona hysteria boils down to the fact that our culture lacks a natural and reflective take on Death.

This could be a place of another discussion but I used to think something like this in the past as well, that our views on death are somehow unnatural. During the last couple of years I've been questioning it more. I don't know if there really is any "natural" relationship with death and the fact that some day each of us will die. Basically it's something each of us knows and learn as we grow. What could be more natural? Other cultures might seem to have more natural views on it, like we might have had in the past but are/were those people really more capable in dying? I think we're all pretty good at it in the end.

One could argue that our culture hides death but another look could also reveal that nothing is as usual in our culture than the images of death (and sex). Movies, books, music and everything is filled with it. It's too easy to look at other cultures and say that they are dealing with it much better. For example it seems quite usual to look at some "exotic" and carnivalistic approaches in dealing with the ideas of death but we're doing it all the time, too. We're just too blind when looking at ourselves.

It's only ethical to "protect the weak". Those who we think are the so called weak are not a bunch of people lying in hospital beds waiting to die but they are our friends, parents and grandparents who are still capable of living, thinking and doing what ever they do. It's not only about people who are in some ways incapable of living normal life anymore or that there would be need to conform to someone's state of health. (It's also good to remember that if they are not protected, our public health system will soon be flooded with people who could have been protected and then things start to sack as the public health system is flooded and no one gets any help anymore.)

This leads us to another issue: In my opinion we don't have so much problems with dying some day. Instead we have trouble growing old as we idealize youth and individuality. We have a very skewed perspective on old people which I guess might be because in larger sense we have lost contact to our own background and the idea that we need each other. We look at ourselves as individuals in very unhealthy way which makes us think that we should always be able to carry ourselves. Growing old and being an individual don't mix well because sooner or later you will need other people. Then it turns into shame because we have the false image in our head that as individuals we should be able to take care of ourselves and accept no help. Some day it will lead into a dead end. Maybe this crisis can teach us something, maybe not.

Aquila wrote: ↑Wed Mar 18, 2020 10:38 am

Ave wrote: ↑Tue Mar 17, 2020 9:57 pm Here in Finland the official justification for the restrictions has been that we are "protecting the weak" (the sick, the elderly). Seriously, if I was old and sick I wouldn't want the rest of the society to conform like this because of my state. And in the end the corona hysteria boils down to the fact that our culture lacks a natural and reflective take on Death.

This could be a place of another discussion but I used to think something like this in the past as well, that our views on death are somehow unnatural. During the last couple of years I've been questioning it more. I don't know if there really is any "natural" relationship with death and the fact that some day each of us will die. Basically it's something each of us knows and learn as we grow. What could be more natural? Other cultures might seem to have more natural views on it, like we might have had in the past but are/were those people really more capable in dying? I think we're all pretty good at it in the end.

In a merely physical point of view we all succeed in dying, but there is more to dying than that. To me dying is a skill, an art even. It is woven to our skill to truly live. Truly living is being ready to die when the time comes. By "natural take on Death" I meant the fear-free realization that death is a inevitable part of greater Life. Death is Life and fear of each particular death is more of a fear of life. I have also witness that in the medical culture (amongst doctors) there is a great resistance towards death - which to me has nothing to do with the medic's etchical principle of alleviatig the suffering. Resistance is not love or empathy - resistance is fear. Fear is suffering. In the medical field doctors are prone to prescirpt un-necessary medical measures to the dying because they lack the palliative care skills and aren't able to face the death of the patient. This causes unnecessary suffering to the patient (I have witnessed this with my own eyes and ears). Luckily the palliative care is evolving even here in Finland.

Aquila wrote: ↑Wed Mar 18, 2020 10:38 am It's only ethical to "protect the weak". Those who we think are the so called weak are not a bunch of people lying in hospital beds waiting to die but they are our friends, parents and grandparents who are still capable of living, thinking and doing what ever they do. It's not only about people who are in some ways incapable of living normal life anymore or that there would be need to conform to someone's state of health. (It's also good to remember that if they are not protected, our public health system will soon be flooded with people who could have been protected and then things start to sack as the public health system is flooded and no one gets any help anymore.)

I never meant that protecting the weak was in it self an undesired goal. Humanity wouldn't have evolved without this etchical standard. I was just analyzing the motives and spirit behind this discurse in this particular corona-case. (Also I get the point behing "lowering the curbe" -argument.)

Aquila wrote: ↑Wed Mar 18, 2020 10:38 am
This leads us to another issue: In my opinion we don't have so much problems with dying some day. Instead we have trouble growing old as we idealize youth and individuality. We have a very skewed perspective on old people which I guess might be because in larger sense we have lost contact to our own background and the idea that we need each other. We look at ourselves as individuals in very unhealthy way which makes us think that we should always be able to carry ourselves. Growing old and being an individual don't mix well because sooner or later you will need other people. Then it turns into shame because we have the false image in our head that as individuals we should be able to take care of ourselves and accept no help. Some day it will lead into a dead end. Maybe this crisis can teach us something, maybe not.

What is growing old - but dying (for dying is a process, not an exact point in time)? The elderly carry physiological death in their being - it's imminent within them. I wish that this society would esteem the elderly higher: their wisdom, their beauty.

Ave wrote: ↑Wed Mar 18, 2020 1:27 pm

Aquila wrote: ↑Wed Mar 18, 2020 10:38 am

Ave wrote: ↑Tue Mar 17, 2020 9:57 pm Here in Finland the official justification for the restrictions has been that we are "protecting the weak" (the sick, the elderly). Seriously, if I was old and sick I wouldn't want the rest of the society to conform like this because of my state. And in the end the corona hysteria boils down to the fact that our culture lacks a natural and reflective take on Death.

This could be a place of another discussion but I used to think something like this in the past as well, that our views on death are somehow unnatural. During the last couple of years I've been questioning it more. I don't know if there really is any "natural" relationship with death and the fact that some day each of us will die. Basically it's something each of us knows and learn as we grow. What could be more natural? Other cultures might seem to have more natural views on it, like we might have had in the past but are/were those people really more capable in dying? I think we're all pretty good at it in the end.

In a merely physical point of view we all succeed in dying, but there is more to dying than that. To me dying is a skill, an art even. It is woven to our skill to truly live. Truly living is being ready to die when the time comes. By "natural take on Death" I meant the fear-free realization that death is a inevitable part of greater Life. Death is Life and fear of each particular death is more of a fear of life. I have also witness that in the medical culture (amongst doctors) there is a great resistance towards death - which to me has nothing to do with the medic's etchical principle of alleviatig the suffering. Resistance is not love or empathy - resistance is fear. Fear is suffering. In the medical field doctors are prone to prescirpt un-necessary medical measures to the dying because they lack the palliative care skills and aren't able to face the death of the patient. This causes unnecessary suffering to the patient (I have witnessed this with my own eyes and ears). Luckily the palliative care is evolving even here in Finland.

By saying that "in the end we're all pretty good at dying" I meant that we all will be facing the idea of our own death in a way or another. Most of us will see our parents and loved ones die too. It's not only about consciously thinking, meditating or ritualistically approaching this fact experiencing it in many nuanced aspects of life itself. What the doctors are doing does not really represent our culture of dying in it's totality. They have certain kind of task which involves trying to keep people alive so I kind of think their actions are based on other kind of reasoning than what we probably have on this forum. Yet I hope people would have more freedom of dying if they choose that option during serious illness or if there is no hope for recovery. What I want to say is that death is around us all the time and it affects us unconsciously too. I can't expect the so called common people to take an esoteric relationship to death and start acting without fear when I can't even do it by myself. Maybe this will sound funny but I don't want to die because I still have lot of things to do and I don't want be reborn (in meaning of starting again), at least not just yet

In the end, I think that we can't really get rid of fear. We can overcome fear and that is to accept it. And to accept fear is to accept it within other people like within ourselves. Then I can only come to the conclusion of who am I to say how anyone should think of their own death and the fear it causes and how to act upon it. It's easy to judge people but after all, in one of our aspects, we're just animals trying to cope with various situations. Not all of us are esotericists who have found the answers of life and death.

On a brighter note, what positive aspects do you all see in the times we are living in? Not just the coronavirus times but more generally as well?

Mars wrote: ↑Wed Mar 18, 2020 6:52 pm On a brighter note, what positive aspects do you all see in the times we are living in? Not just the coronavirus times but more generally as well?

When it comes to the crisis, it seems everything is more meaningful, which points to some secular loose/lazy parts in my experience of the day-to-day stuff when the world isn’t coming down to its knees. Just now went to get my blanket and thought that the sun is going down and the warmth vanishes as the night comes, instantly seeing the romantic meaning in that. This isn’t totally abnormal, but felt more vivid and sort of instant in a way.

I see alot of caring attitude around, which might have something to do with the overall current times. Of course there’s the basic instinct of helping each other in crisis, but I wonder if some angle in there is due to some small steps taken in the collective progress. For example I read somewhere that the family that was basicly the first ones to get the virus had solely supportive and caring messages addressed to them in some public place in China. I think this attitude builds the potential to really start addressing the problems that the crisis is coming from, which is of course a vast thing and can not be pointed to one direction only. Similarly addressing and going through the problems doesn’t happen only in the conscious levels.

Aquila wrote: ↑Wed Mar 18, 2020 3:35 pm
In the end, I think that we can't really get rid of fear. We can overcome fear and that is to accept it. And to accept fear is to accept it within other people like within ourselves. Then I can only come to the conclusion of who am I to say how anyone should think of their own death and the fear it causes and how to act upon it. It's easy to judge people but after all, in one of our aspects, we're just animals trying to cope with various situations. Not all of us are esotericists who have found the answers of life and death.

Not sure, if that last sentence was sarcasm but I'll just take it as lovinly snarky bit

Yes, one ought not to resist fear. I was forced to accept mine, since it was too overwhelming for too long (I've lived with fear of dying from early age on). Still, reflection of it is an ongoing thing, not something that someone can "graduate from" however courageous one might be. And I do not have any death wishes myself (anymore). I love to be alive.

This conversation has lived in me and broadened my perspectives, even thought - and mostly because - our standpoints seem to differ.
I didn't mean to be judgemental, but maybe I came across like that? And yes, I admit being judgemental about this corona panic. Yet, I'm trying to recover from my judgement and resistance.

Mars wrote: ↑Wed Mar 18, 2020 6:52 pm On a brighter note, what positive aspects do you all see in the times we are living in? Not just the coronavirus times but more generally as well?

Today my 6 yo. daughter asked me to tell about the past. Telling her history stories made me again realize how much some things have evolved since then.

This is as interesting time to be alive as any. The positive aspect depends of us.

There's an old Chinese saying, that goes something like this: "I pray that you get to live in interesting times".

I'm finding myself in a weird position where I'm amongst the vulnerable, and as such I have been quarantined for almost a week. It's really bizarre to have coworkers, family, and friends rallying to keep the likes of me and other vulnerables healthy. I get multiple messages from concerned folk every day, and though I am really grateful to be surrounded by such loving and compassionate human beings, it makes me feel like too much attention is being thrown my way.
The angsty teenager in me has always been curious to live through a global emergency, but the adult in me is worried about bills, haha!
On the very positive side my family and I have been finding really awesome ways to connect. We play music and games every day. I now find myself with time I didn't have before to edit articles, read, focus on my studies and create art.
If I'm honest with myself I think I was very close to having a mental break down due to work stress, so this is proving to be quite a blessing in more ways than one.

In terms of this crisis as a whole, and pretty much every other crisis, I always have Sorath in the back of my mind and our discussion about the Black Sun archetype in another thread, which I will try to find and link. **EDIT: that thread no longer exists, I think.**
I'm the kind of person who gets overwhelmed by world events very easily, and the only way I can make that feel lighter is just by trying to be a better version of myself every day.

Ave wrote: ↑Wed Mar 18, 2020 7:42 pm

Aquila wrote: ↑Wed Mar 18, 2020 3:35 pm
In the end, I think that we can't really get rid of fear. We can overcome fear and that is to accept it. And to accept fear is to accept it within other people like within ourselves. Then I can only come to the conclusion of who am I to say how anyone should think of their own death and the fear it causes and how to act upon it. It's easy to judge people but after all, in one of our aspects, we're just animals trying to cope with various situations. Not all of us are esotericists who have found the answers of life and death.

Not sure, if that last sentence was sarcasm but I'll just take it as lovinly snarky bit

Yes, one ought not to resist fear. I was forced to accept mine, since it was too overwhelming for too long (I've lived with fear of dying from early age on). Still, reflection of it is an ongoing thing, not something that someone can "graduate from" however courageous one might be. And I do not have any death wishes myself (anymore). I love to be alive.

This conversation has lived in me and broadened my perspectives, even thought - and mostly because - our standpoints seem to differ.
I didn't mean to be judgemental, but maybe I came across like that? And yes, I admit being judgemental about this corona panic. Yet, I'm trying to recover from my judgement and resistance.

I didn't mean to be sarcastic or anything, sorry! I referred to what I said that we can't expect all the people understand things from an esoteric point of view and act accordingly. It's also difficult to understand all the words without knowing what kind of personal nuances lie behind. That's why it seems like quite strong statements to say things like "Resistance is not love or empathy - resistance is fear. Fear is suffering" etc. Many people are and will be facing real suffering whether it is someone getting sick, someone losing their job, losing their loved ones, or just facing stress and uncertainty about the future. This is why I can't really judge anyone who now feels their life threatened or just wants to do whatever they can to make themselves feel safe. It's quite understandable at the moment. Esoteric insight is a great tool to people willing to understand more but in general most people experience the reality in a different way, their identity and life is based on things that are less stable. After all I don't believe there has been so much panic going on. Instead many are afraid that other people start panicing and buying all the stocks empty, so they hoard the stuff by themselves in advance.