I see intimacy as a one of the key concepts and key practices in relationships. To me, intimacy is the willingness to be witnessed by the other - in all that one is. It is the willingness to examine, and reflect upon one's defenses in the company of the other. Intimacy, in it order to exist within relationships, has to be reciprocal.
How do you define intimacy? In your experience, how common it is to be intimate within close relationships: friendships, romantic relations etc.? How intimacy relates to the Path and the Great Work?
Intimacy
- Polyhymnia
- Posts: 518
- Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:20 pm
Re: Intimacy
A very good question that gets my heart racing.
I think that a level intimacy is a requirement in all fruitful relationships, from friendships to romantic unions, and it really does require that reciprocity of which you speak. I'm no expert though, because I struggle being truly intimate with just about everyone, including my long-time partner. I would say that my friendships are probably more intimate than the status quo, but there is a serious struggle with being intimate in a romantic sense and with myself. I think that the hatred I felt for myself for so long sometimes clouds my ability to see myself as a divine creature, and I see this as an obstacle on my path in fulfilling the Work. But I have also had incredible experiences where it has felt as though the Master sees me for me and I am allowed to just exist, and these moments are rapturous. Even talking about this requires a level of intimacy that makes me borderline uncomfortable, but it's good. Just another trial I need to overcome
In sum, I believe one must be willing to be wholly intimate with oneself to continue ascension. That requires being honest with all parts of the Self, the strongest parts and the weakest parts; the whole, the healed, and the broken. Sometimes it is ugly, and sometimes it is beautiful.
For me, this pretty much sums it up. It is a harrowing ordeal that requires a lot of vulnerability, but I imagine once it is achieved in its highest expression, it is sublime.
I think that a level intimacy is a requirement in all fruitful relationships, from friendships to romantic unions, and it really does require that reciprocity of which you speak. I'm no expert though, because I struggle being truly intimate with just about everyone, including my long-time partner. I would say that my friendships are probably more intimate than the status quo, but there is a serious struggle with being intimate in a romantic sense and with myself. I think that the hatred I felt for myself for so long sometimes clouds my ability to see myself as a divine creature, and I see this as an obstacle on my path in fulfilling the Work. But I have also had incredible experiences where it has felt as though the Master sees me for me and I am allowed to just exist, and these moments are rapturous. Even talking about this requires a level of intimacy that makes me borderline uncomfortable, but it's good. Just another trial I need to overcome
![Embarrassed :oops:](./images/smilies/icon_redface.gif)
In sum, I believe one must be willing to be wholly intimate with oneself to continue ascension. That requires being honest with all parts of the Self, the strongest parts and the weakest parts; the whole, the healed, and the broken. Sometimes it is ugly, and sometimes it is beautiful.
"Limited love asks for possession of the beloved, but the unlimited asks only for itself." -Kahlil Gibran
- Soror O
- Posts: 416
- Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2018 6:15 pm
Re: Intimacy
Thank you sister for your heartfelt answer. You truly are a gem (I don't know why I say this to "a stranger" but something makes me say it and it just feels right.)
But surely, the practice of auto intimacy is not something that one can graduate from, as we, as humans, tend to generate more layers to our persona. (I relate this mechanism also to karma.) It truly has surprised me how subtle, and various are the defences of the psyche. But if one resolves the core wound - the fear (of vulnerability) - one can more easily face the defences as they are: a set of two dimensional movie props (maybe this was an over simplification).
I have tried this "top level intimacy" only once with another human being. And it left me feeling like a exhibitionistic ego-maniac. Something went wrong in the process. I though I showed him mine, he didn't show me his. And I blamed myself for it, as I always do. Was I too much, too eager, too Egoistic, too a woman, too whatever that I ended up occupying his space, the place where he was supposed to show up.
Vulnerability is one of the core concepts here. It is tragic that being vulnerable is the thing that people are "wired" to evade, yet it is the one thing that eventually liberates and redeems them.Polyhymnia wrote: ↑Sun Aug 08, 2021 10:23 pmFor me, this pretty much sums it up. It is a harrowing ordeal that requires a lot of vulnerability, but I imagine once it is achieved in its highest expression, it is sublime.
This remined me of a certain period in my life, where I was forced in front of the mirror. (It was the Master who forced me.) Being in front of the mirror just as I was - stripped off from masks, cloths - was the most terrifying thing so far, as I had hated myself for so long and fiercly. Being undressed with myself started off with a feeling of terror and disgust, evolving into curiousity, radical acceptance, and bliss. I was united with God as I stood facing the mirror, undressed.Polyhymnia wrote: ↑Sun Aug 08, 2021 10:23 pm (...) there is a serious struggle with being intimate in a romantic sense and with myself. I think that the hatred I felt for myself for so long sometimes clouds my ability to see myself as a divine creature, and I see this as an obstacle on my path in fulfilling the Work.
But surely, the practice of auto intimacy is not something that one can graduate from, as we, as humans, tend to generate more layers to our persona. (I relate this mechanism also to karma.) It truly has surprised me how subtle, and various are the defences of the psyche. But if one resolves the core wound - the fear (of vulnerability) - one can more easily face the defences as they are: a set of two dimensional movie props (maybe this was an over simplification).
I have tried this "top level intimacy" only once with another human being. And it left me feeling like a exhibitionistic ego-maniac. Something went wrong in the process. I though I showed him mine, he didn't show me his. And I blamed myself for it, as I always do. Was I too much, too eager, too Egoistic, too a woman, too whatever that I ended up occupying his space, the place where he was supposed to show up.
If you want to reborn, let yourself die.
- Insanus
- Posts: 835
- Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2010 7:06 am
- Location: Helsinki
Re: Intimacy
Intimacy is when you can share other's experience deeply enough that you can feel and appreciate it at least partly your own and love it in some way. One angle to look at the great work is to think of it as attempted process of achieving this intimate understanding with all consciousness(es?). I feel people often are so fast, bright, loud and troubled that there's rarely space quiet and dark enough to even hear other's breath or actually feel it. The next best thing is faith and patience, mostly good enough for me since I'm usually not strong enough to hold my own without appearing uncaring and cold.
Jumalan synnit ovat kourallinen hiekkaa ihmisen valtameressä
- Polyhymnia
- Posts: 518
- Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:20 pm
Re: Intimacy
<3 The beautiful bonds of sisterhood. The feeling is mutual!
This sounds like a beautiful experience, and exceptionally cathartic. May I ask if those feelings of radical acceptance have stayed with you since this experience? I don't like to be too alone with myself most of the time. Not to be confused with being alone-this is something I love-but thinking too much about myself or looking too much at myself or just focusing too much on myself makes me very uncomfortable. I'd like to reach a point where I'm able to just sit with myself and peel back the layers, bravely. I am so grateful for those in my life who help me feel brave, and who remind me often that I am loved and worth the internal work.Soror O wrote: ↑Sun Aug 08, 2021 11:36 pm This remined me of a certain period in my life, where I was forced in front of the mirror. (It was the Master who forced me.) Being in front of the mirror just as I was - stripped off from masks, cloths - was the most terrifying thing so far, as I had hated myself for so long and fiercly. Being undressed with myself started off with a feeling of terror and disgust, evolving into curiousity, radical acceptance, and bliss. I was united with God as I stood facing the mirror, undressed.
This is a very poignant view of Intimacy. I think I'll have to be able to experience this first with myself before I can fully understand how to experience it with others.
Isn't that so curious how some of us always blame ourselves first? "Was I too much?" I often ponder on where exactly we pick such a notion up. Does everyone have this doubt about themselves? My father taught me to always think for myself, and he was big on debating with me so I could find my voice ( though he really wanted my voice to be an extension of his voice), but he also taught me that I should be modest and that men were the head of the home and women were to be subservient. And my grandmothers were always teaching me to take up as little space as possible, to be small, and delicate, to sit with my legs closed. And then I wonder, is it a wonder at all that I struggle to know myself when most of my foundational blocks barely encouraged me to exist at all? And then I'm just grateful that I can recognize these things in myself and actively work towards overcoming them, or trying my very best to. Isn't it funny how we can feel like we're too much yet not enough at the same time?Soror O wrote: ↑Sun Aug 08, 2021 11:36 pm I have tried this "top level intimacy" only once with another human being. And it left me feeling like a exhibitionistic ego-maniac. Something went wrong in the process. I though I showed him mine, he didn't show me his. And I blamed myself for it, as I always do. Was I too much, too eager, too Egoistic, too a woman, too whatever that I ended up occupying his space, the place where he was supposed to show up.
Yes, I agree wholeheartedly. I've always believed the most profound things are found in the quietest and darkest of places.
"Limited love asks for possession of the beloved, but the unlimited asks only for itself." -Kahlil Gibran
- Medeia
- Posts: 47
- Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2021 1:00 am
Re: Intimacy
Agreed. Yet exhibitionism can be defined the same way – that is, on the surface and specifically without the “in all that one is” part - and that’s basically as far from intimacy as possible. This is (and has been sort of a) familiar to me, not as a sex fetish but twisting honesty from virtue into a defence mechanism, “do to others before they have a chance to do to you”(aggressive)/building a facade of lesser errors in order to hide greater ones(defencive), so that honesty actually becomes a form of deception. Nice to be human.intimacy is the willingness to be witnessed by the other
Point being; Trust seems to be the key here (duh) and that to me is almost a synonym for spiritual aspiration.
- Soror O
- Posts: 416
- Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2018 6:15 pm
Re: Intimacy
Yes, they have stayed, although due to my multi-layeredness it is possible that there is some dose of self resentment still left in the structures of my ego(es). I see that the way we perceive another beings is the way we are perceived by them. You have summoned these loving people in your life, because of the love that is inherent within you. I have noticed that some love is the kind that we cannot receive from ourselves but is has to be recycled among people in order it to reach us. My radical acceptance was enabled by certain relationships in which I loved and was loved in return, and in which we all were uncovered.Polyhymnia wrote: ↑Mon Aug 09, 2021 9:13 pm May I ask if those feelings of radical acceptance have stayed with you since this experience? I don't like to be too alone with myself most of the time. Not to be confused with being alone-this is something I love-but thinking too much about myself or looking too much at myself or just focusing too much on myself makes me very uncomfortable. I'd like to reach a point where I'm able to just sit with myself and peel back the layers, bravely. I am so grateful for those in my life who help me feel brave, and who remind me often that I am loved and worth the internal work.
Thank you for sharing, childhood stories are highly relevant to the subject at hand!Polyhymnia wrote: ↑Mon Aug 09, 2021 9:13 pm Isn't that so curious how some of us always blame ourselves first? "Was I too much?" I often ponder on where exactly we pick such a notion up. Does everyone have this doubt about themselves? My father taught me to always think for myself, and he was big on debating with me so I could find my voice ( though he really wanted my voice to be an extension of his voice), but he also taught me that I should be modest and that men were the head of the home and women were to be subservient. And my grandmothers were always teaching me to take up as little space as possible, to be small, and delicate, to sit with my legs closed. And then I wonder, is it a wonder at all that I struggle to know myself when most of my foundational blocks barely encouraged me to exist at all? And then I'm just grateful that I can recognize these things in myself and actively work towards overcoming them, or trying my very best to. Isn't it funny how we can feel like we're too much yet not enough at the same time?
Some self-blame can originate from an infantile, grandious illusion of being in control, being the only center of reality (in psychology, this is the infantile, narcissistic state). The child blames herself, for his mentalization skills are still developing. Ie. he does not really realise that all people have their own minds and the (social) reality consists of myriad variables that a child cannot crasp neither control. If something bad then happens, the child concludes that she has to be the cause, for she is the only one that she has consistent evidence of. Therefore, whenever anything adverse happens, the child must be affirmed by adult: this x,y,z is not our fault, it's because of x,y, z. Otherwise the adversity is internalized and it gets to be sealed in the ego (until it is realized and released).
And like sor Polyhymnia referred, childhood adversity comes in many, subbtle forms. I listen to people telling how they had "ok", or "normal", or even "happy" childhoods while there were things like this at play:
- the child was not met for who he/she really was: some reactions, emotions and thoughs were deemed unpropriate and therefore cast into non-existence (ie. into the Shadow)
- the child lived among unresolved collective emotions, traumatic memories etc. and nobody ever spoke up about it all or explain it to the child
- the child witnessed complex adult behaviour and emotions, which never was explained to a child
- the child's personal borders were disrespected and violated in the name of upbringing etc.
Ofcourse one can regard a childhood "happy" regardless of adversity. But imo, the adversity has to be reconciled with, in order to reach truthfull evaluation, where happiness and adversity can truly co-exist. I have evaluated my childhood in the course of the years in the following spectrum:
"I had a good childhood."
"I had crappy incest childhood with mentally ill parents and I hate them infinitely."
"I had a childhood full of experiences, some of them adverse and painful, some of them beautiful. I can now decide to live regardless of them." (To live regardess doesn't mean avoinding the pain, which may still linger on within.)
If you want to reborn, let yourself die.