Entities and forces

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LunaticSun
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Entities and forces

Post by LunaticSun »

Nefastos adviced me to make a thread for this question, I feel like people would have different opinions on it even within the SoA, so it is also somewhat an exploration of the worldviews that exist within the bortherhood. so here are the questions I've come up with.

1) What are the entities or forces (or both) that you believe to exist and surround us or reside inside of us? let's say, for the entities outside we could probably mention demons, angels (if one makes such distintion), spirits, etc.

and for the entities inside -
2) what are the parts that make up the thing that we know as 'human', what are their duties/functions/responsibilities? Which of them are mortal and which are not?
3) And what outer entities (like demons, I presume) can become a part of our inner self?
4)What does such integration lead to in each case?
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Re: Entities and forces

Post by Insanus »

Great question!

All sorts of fragmented parts of personality come from social interaction, education, movies, art, video games, books and whatever like germs carrying disease. We pick up this or that thing and integrate it to our own personalities and learn to say "that's like me, that's like you" in varying depths. If we simplify a lot, we could say these reflections make up the personal level. You could categorize similar characters, artistic styles & c.under some schools and those schools under some guiding idea/spiritual affect and call those affects spirits, currents or something like that. In a liminal state you can perceive them as having their own autonomy & freedom and call them spirits, whether they "really" have those qualitied is quite meaningless question to my own (ha ha!) antirealist leanings.
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LunaticSun
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Re: Entities and forces

Post by LunaticSun »

Insanus wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 6:06 pm If we simplify a lot, we could say these reflections make up the personal level.
From these words I may say that you believe there are other levels except that? Could it be something related to indian philosophy? Like atman, or buddha?
Insanus wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 6:06 pm In a liminal state you can perceive them as having their own autonomy & freedom and call them spirits, whether they "really" have those qualitied is quite meaningless question to my own (ha ha!) antirealist leanings.
Upon your words, I imagined a person being a shell, inside of which there could be some central core which contains same 'spirits' as ones outside of it, and hence when an outward spirit affects the person, it is due to the action that happened shortly before that: person's own inner spirits reaching the inside surface of shell to make contact with the outer ones. (which somewhat reminds of macrocosm)
But all of these are my assumptions, would you kindly elaborate more on it when you are able to? About your personal beliefs and leanings. I am not here to judge any of these, what I'm trying to do is see how you personally percieve the world. No matter how arrogant it may be, we all have our own realities in which we live day by day, and I strongly wish to see these worlds and discover their beauty.
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Re: Entities and forces

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LunaticSun wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 5:34 pm1) What are the entities or forces (or both) that you believe to exist and surround us or reside inside of us?

I think that it is important not to attach oneself too much into some specific names. Although once some system is adopted, it is naturally helpful to take that system's stance as the foundation onto which different classifications are reflected, to expand, investigate, and enhance it.

Because of this, I tend to use terms like spirits, angels, demons, and so on, together, according to situation. For I do not believe in some absolute form of goodness in (non-human) spirits that are always helpful & benevolent, and some absolute form of evil in (non-human) spirits that are always harmful. Occult cosmology is much harder to grasp. Biblical view on angels is telling: Angels are most often terrible entities which give people great fright, spread chaos on earth, &c. Also, demon (derived from Greek daemon, ~genius i.e. the guardian spirit) is a word that has multiple meanings.

I have tried not to make one immutable system of spiritual influences in my own writings, but instead speak of these influences with differing terms. In case some terminological, heuristic apparatus is needed, one can be found from the Demons' Cube text. We can use e.g. the following terminology:

1) Goetic spirits, which are elementals in White astral (neutral, natural beings, but not very intelligent)
2) Beings of the mask, astral entities that are remnants of human- and other minds; not archetypal (evil spectres and demons, anti-entities)
3) Angelic beings, who form an energetical ladder – energetical substance & mind – of existence itself (good, but only in a way fire or lightning is)
4) Gods, true archetypal beings (good, but paratemporal, and thus impersonal from our point of view)
5) Ascended immortal masters (beings who have been humans previously, and who can do actual good, because they know what suffering is)

(Magicians on the path of descension do not belong to the fifth, but to the second class.) All of these are also parts of human constitution itself – we may recall the basic axiom of the Emerald Tablet –, and thus we have the spiritual constitution of man as given in Argarizim's chapter Phlegethon. For example, the "ascended immortal master" within a human being is his Ego, Lucifer-Christos.

LunaticSun wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 5:34 pm2) what are the parts that make up the thing that we know as 'human', what are their duties/functions/responsibilities? Which of them are mortal and which are not?

It depends on what we mean by immortality. The deeper within a human constitution an entity resides, the more immutable and permanent it is. The only absolutely persisting part is one's monad, the God within. Even the inner Master is able to learn & get even deeper initiations, which means that it also changes, and change is another word for mortality. On the other hand, even the most base parts of one's physical constitution are "immortal" in a way that they karmic fetter persist beyond death, and will be the goetic spirits who will build & form one's future lives.

LunaticSun wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 5:34 pm3) And what outer entities (like demons, I presume) can become a part of our inner self?

It depends on what we mean by self. In a way, all entities. But since "self" means self-identification, our self-identification (our very idea of "self") must go through cataclysmic transformations before we can say that it actually includes, for example, "God".
LunaticSun wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 5:34 pm4)What does such integration lead to in each case?

That we become that we love, when all parts of it have been accepted in turn. (Usually loving something means only loving a part of it, and when the thing unfolds to manifest as a whole, we recoil. Which often is the best thing to do.)
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Re: Entities and forces

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LunaticSun wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 5:34 pm Nefastos adviced me to make a thread for this question, I feel like people would have different opinions on it even within the SoA, so it is also somewhat an exploration of the worldviews that exist within the bortherhood. so here are the questions I've come up with.

1) What are the entities or forces (or both) that you believe to exist and surround us or reside inside of us? let's say, for the entities outside we could probably mention demons, angels (if one makes such distintion), spirits, etc.

and for the entities inside -
2) what are the parts that make up the thing that we know as 'human', what are their duties/functions/responsibilities? Which of them are mortal and which are not?
3) And what outer entities (like demons, I presume) can become a part of our inner self?
4)What does such integration lead to in each case?
I have mentioned in other threads my challenges with being a natural sceptic, so in many ways I am at the stage of a baby in learning about such matters. In people very close to me I have seen the effects of demonic possession ("evil") presented as an outside entity possessing the "good". Now I have an incredibly hard time believing that something like this happened in these particular cases that are close to me, but that's not to say I don't believe something like this could exist in a different circumstance. I think that there are many reasons one would claim and believe in an actual demonic entity possession, but most of those reasons are to avoid personal responsibility. Look at all the ways one could skirt ethical obligation if they had no control over their actions.

On the other end of this spectrum I sometimes feel as though something is inside of me that manifests itself in involuntary responses to certain things like Christians praying over me. I'm prone to think that on a subconscious level I just abhor Christianity so much that it's manifested as sometimes intense reactions that I seemingly have no control over. Which may just be a part of me so deeply rooted in this belief that it allows me to not take responsibility for say, the urge to hiss or curse air someone, which is not something I would ever do under any other circumstance.
"Limited love asks for possession of the beloved, but the unlimited asks only for itself." -Kahlil Gibran
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Re: Entities and forces

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Thank you, Nefastos for putting everything in a wonderful order. I understand your position, but personally cannot feel complete without making a choice (though such decision should be a choice and solution in itself... but it doesn't work for me YET, or maybe I just prefer some ceremonialism which requires me to put the 'spirits' into shapes deliberately).
Polyhymnia wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 6:33 pm On the other end of this spectrum I sometimes feel as though something is inside of me that manifests itself in involuntary responses to certain things like Christians praying over me. I'm prone to think that on a subconscious level I just abhor Christianity so much that it's manifested as sometimes intense reactions that I seemingly have no control over. Which may just be a part of me so deeply rooted in this belief that it allows me to not take responsibility for say, the urge to hiss or curse air someone, which is not something I would ever do under any other circumstance.
It seems like you have had some experience with very devoted, or better to say very sticky, Christians (my own grandma is very devoted but she never ever spoke bad about my choices, or worse, prayed for me being such a sinner-antichrist, rather she'd just pray for everyone and mind her own business without converting any soul into Christianity). That is a very subtle flaw I'd say - getting angry at someone who's considering you lost and probably talks about you behind your back shedding tears for your soul.
I guess one could see a sin of pride here? Like you are shrugging off the help and prayers of others.
On the other hand, it also reminds me of the image of Erinias: these people keep shouting deafening prayers and pointing torches towards your eyes saying that those are the Sun and divinity. But you're not Orest after all, and the only 'mother' you killed would be the faith in honesty and truthfullness of Christianity which we could argue to be a deed done by you and by the same Erinias (those people that are getting on your nerves with christianity) that are now so eager to return you to faith. Moreover, even Orest himself was justified by Athena.
I am sure you will manage to stay strong around them, and the fact that you are so deeply concerned about such behaviour (which could be lazily justified, as I just did for the sake of example) tells a lot about you, and in your favour. It was nice to learn about you, your views and devotion, thank you.
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Re: Entities and forces

Post by Polyhymnia »

LunaticSun wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 1:51 am I guess one could see a sin of pride here? Like you are shrugging off the help and prayers of others.
On the other hand, it also reminds me of the image of Erinias: these people keep shouting deafening prayers and pointing torches towards your eyes saying that those are the Sun and divinity. But you're not Orest after all, and the only 'mother' you killed would be the faith in honesty and truthfullness of Christianity which we could argue to be a deed done by you and by the same Erinias (those people that are getting on your nerves with christianity) that are now so eager to return you to faith. Moreover, even Orest himself was justified by Athena.
I am sure you will manage to stay strong around them, and the fact that you are so deeply concerned about such behaviour (which could be lazily justified, as I just did for the sake of example) tells a lot about you, and in your favour. It was nice to learn about you, your views and devotion, thank you.
This could very well be true. I try very hard to not be a proud person, but perhaps I'm too proud to admit I'm proud and should examine inverting humility in case this is pride being pushed down and coming out in involuntary ways. Thank you for your insight. I have been enjoying your contributions to the forum!
"Limited love asks for possession of the beloved, but the unlimited asks only for itself." -Kahlil Gibran
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Re: Entities and forces

Post by Nefastos »

Polyhymnia wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 6:33 pmI have mentioned in other threads my challenges with being a natural sceptic [...] Now I have an incredibly hard time believing that something like this happened in these particular cases that are close to me, but that's not to say I don't believe something like this could exist in a different circumstance.
LunaticSun wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 1:51 amThank you, Nefastos for putting everything in a wonderful order. I understand your position, but personally cannot feel complete without making a choice [...]

I am glad that we have these a bit different, but always respectful attitudes here in our forum, as well as in the brotherhood. I abhor equally both ideas that we should form some kind of a credible mass of undigested thoughts of any one system, or that we should give up discussing these things in a respectful fashion, keeping in mind that other brethren might have some insight or a different but valid approach that we ourselves are so far lacking. I am also grateful that my own quite bizarre – or archaic in form – ideas are usually tolerated awfully well.

Out of curiosity, what was your exact choice, LunaticSun? In case you wish to share it.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Re: Entities and forces

Post by LunaticSun »

I'd wish to think the world is full of spirits similar to ones from Faust, or to make even another step and choose animism without really attaching it to any culture and order.

Thus any matter would relate to spirit, which is also a kind of a weird thing (e.g. you become cognisant of spirit of room, but suddenly you realise the room contains ceiling, floor and at least 4 walls. Do they have separate spirits? Oh and there are some bumps in the walls of which you might have even some funny memories... guess they must contain spirits too? Eventually the only thing one would wonder about is why would only they pay rent and others reside here for free)
urm so anyway i shall abstain from any choice yet, work on myself, and learn from others
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