Challenges in the Star of Azazel's International Presence

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Nefastos
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Challenges in the Star of Azazel's International Presence

Post by Nefastos »

It seems that our international presence has once again downshifted recently. Many members outside Finland have either left, or succumbed into silence or inactivity. New people outside Finland enter the forum (or, as far as I know, the lodges) only rarely. This makes me ponder things once again, but let me ponder here, instead in my head only...

The main reason would surely be the distance. In Finland we have many possibilities to meet & be active more easily, because there are so many members that most people find at least somebody who share one's own approaches and make association more natural. Outside Finland, there are extremely few possibilities for meetings, and loneliness of the members must make hard to feel the shared spiritual, astral & ideal presence.

There have been no new English publications for some time, which also might make one feel the association thin. Even though the Unseen Fire III is in the process of making, brother Smaragd has been extra busy in translating English articles and important correspondence, and English translations of books have been waiting editing for some time, these things are like distant echoes from the depths until their publications will be achieved. One must be carefully tuned indeed if one is to hear what happens in the English part of SoA under the vast & mostly silent waves.

And yet this is a vicious circle: Why put so much effort into English presence, if there seem to be no active people receiving & appreciating it? One by one our English speaking members & guests have dropped somewhere, which makes the meaningful conversation & uplifting experiences more & more difficult for those few who remain, like our precious sisters Polyhymnia & Cerastes. It is so much easier for us Finns to make Finnish content, and the international part should by now be able to more active. Yet it seems to walk only with very uncertain, hesitating steps.

It sometimes seems a bit weird to visit this English forum & see mostly us Finns talking here with each other. Is there really not in this wide & nowadays magnificently open world more interest for this approach of uniting occultism that seeks ascension instead of thrills & magic spells, pictures of one's altar & what new grimoires we have shopped lately? Is the occultism today really that shallow? Or are there some other challenges, more acute, that I have not taken seriously enough? That is, can I do something more, or should you, dear reader, do something more? For I believe that our cause is wise and important, and should receive more dynamic response.

It has always been the challenge in the brotherhood that does not charge money and therefore does not offer entertainment in the exchange, that people usually want to come to the ready table. Rare individuals understand that in the brotherhood we together (the brethren & our guests) are the ones who make the substance, make the meaning, make the dynamic lodges, make the interesting discussions, and make the demand for more teaching, energy & empowerment. No adept master will come to entertain people who wait at home to be served with mystic knowledge.

Do you have any other approaches, or thoughts, questions, suggestions to share?
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Cerastes
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Re: Challenges in the Star of Azazel's International Presence

Post by Cerastes »

I had the same thought. It must feel wired for you guys to write in English all the time, although the majority of readers and writers are Finns and of course I appreciate the additional effort you put into this.
The problem at hand ist that there is so much interviews and media presence in Finnland and almost none in international media. Sure we have wonderful books like Fosforos and CoL but not everyone gets their hands on them. In addition, people are now more likely to search on YouTube if they want information rather than taking the time to read such a complex book.

It is very hard to gain attention on the internet and in the media, especially if one does not want to lower the intellectual level of the content too much. (Please don’t) But if the SoA and it’s ideology is able to attract so many people amongst little Finland there sure is a big potential outside of Finland. Have you ever thought about publishing interviews in English? It might be challenging but people love to watch interviews and also a Finnish accent is somehow cute. :P

On the long run we might need more international members to keep this going. In enjoy working in Lodge Phanes there have been many good ideas lately and the members are more active than before. But as you can see, there is little time for forum activity.
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Re: Challenges in the Star of Azazel's International Presence

Post by obnoxion »

Cerastes wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:11 am It must feel wired for you guys to write in English all the time, although the majority of readers and writers are Finns and
Not at all. For most Finns English is like A second language.

I think that these things don't always grow gradualy. Instead it might take decades of work that goes mostly unnoticed, and then the big break comes quite suddenly.
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Re: Challenges in the Star of Azazel's International Presence

Post by Aquila »

I think it's not specifically a challenge of the SoA but this kind of forums in general. People have to spend so much time communicating (or passively receiving content from the web) throughout the days that writing on such demanding forums like this one might feel little bit too much. After all it's only a few people who use forums in general and even fewer are those with such marginal interests as ours. But it's not something I would be very concerned about. International presence nowadays is more about other channels (like youtube) than forums and writings on website. I prefer these and I am not willing to make the suggestion that maybe some member should become a youtuber :) Struggling with other people's activity is also something that is very stressful and makes things more difficult.

I would be very happy to write some texts again like I wrote for some time in Sieidi's blog and earlier in other blogs but due to other duties I'm mostly out of energy and ideas. I think we should make some kind of plans together. I know it's a pain in the ass taking shifts in writing content and making sure that everyone stays in the schedule but maybe we could make something else up. I might be too conservative in this aspect as I am only interested in such articles that we already have on our websites and making more of them. I think this could be made in a way that gives members a bit of challenge too because challenging oneself time after time gets to the point where you will be doing everything alone. We could make a list of subjects and themes that could be written about and have a team that concentrates on making these writings. I have been planning some kind of writing group for international members but haven't made any suggestions yet.
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Re: Challenges in the Star of Azazel's International Presence

Post by Nefastos »

Excellent, great to have discussion about this quite important practical subject. I'm trying to comment briefly some of the many different subjects you touched, in order not to instantly build up too massive a text wall.
Aquila wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:53 amI think it's not specifically a challenge of the SoA but this kind of forums in general.

I didn't mean forums particularly; the forum is just a tool, and can be replaced by better tools. I personally prefer forum discussion because of several reasons, but it would be better should this not be our only or even most important visible platform.

Cerastes wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:11 amHave you ever thought about publishing interviews in English? It might be challenging but people love to watch interviews and also a Finnish accent is somehow cute. :P

Is the you here plural or singular? One of my closest brotherhood colleagues is an expert sound technician, so it would be super easy to produce some interviews by voice here. When it comes to filming, I am more reluctant, but of course, if it helps, I can do that too.

It it was plural, yes, we had international members who said they were going to do this kind of thing. But they never did.

It would be, needless to say, great if a native English speaker could do this kind of thing instead.

Aquila wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:53 amPeople have to spend so much time communicating (or passively receiving content from the web) throughout the days that writing on such demanding forums like this one might feel little bit too much.

&
Cerastes wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:11 amIn addition, people are now more likely to search on YouTube if they want information rather than taking the time to read such a complex book.


I added bolding to the problematic part. There is a line beyond which our dharma doesn't go. At least not mine; I cannot even try to help people who cannot help themselves. And trying to help people is what SoA was founded to do: it is not a social club, nor do we make money, as everyone knows.

Aquila wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:53 amStruggling with other people's activity is also something that is very stressful and makes things more difficult.

Sadly, this is an enduring paradox in our work, the ever-looming Fifth Principle.

obnoxion wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:27 amI think that these things don't always grow gradualy. Instead it might take decades of work that goes mostly unnoticed, and then the big break comes quite suddenly.

I trust to that, and there's a part of me that is willing to wait a thousand years. But there's also a part that needs to juggle the energies in a way that would be most efficient, for everybody's sake.

Cerastes wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:11 amThe problem at hand ist that there is so much interviews and media presence in Finnland and almost none in international media. Sure we have wonderful books like Fosforos and CoL but not everyone gets their hands on them.

Yes... The first part will demand its time, like it did in Finland. The second faces (like I have said) very bizarre ongoing problems with editors & artists. But like obnoxion said, these will sort themselves out at some point, should we keep trying. One more challenge for the English publications is that the brotherhood's number one publisher in Finland is mostly interested in Finland's own occult scene, so it would require extra work to find a good publisher that has logistics ready outside Finland.

p.s. I might have misplaced the topic, and it should be in The Society & Lodges instead? Yet since we also discuss about how the information about esotericism goes or might go nowadays, perhaps this also could be a valid place.
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Re: Challenges in the Star of Azazel's International Presence

Post by Angolmois »

I have been wondering about the lack of both Finnish and international people here in the forum for quite some time, since there are so many registered members in here. Perhaps most are just followers if even that. I think it is a loss to every one.

But when I've searched the internet for occult related forums, it is really not a surprise. The lack of quality in internet forums is glaringly obvious compared to the level of conversation here. From this one can draw at least two conclusions: 1) those seriously interested in the occult don't usually participate in forum conversations. 2) the ones that do are either complete novises and in search of something other than uplifting conversation.

I'm not that surprised of the lack of international members either, for the goal of SoA is quite marginal, at least officially. These are only my thoughts, but many LHP / Satanic people may think SoA as something like a 'Jesus hippies club' while for RHP / More traditional people might think SoA as veritably a Devil's counterfeit project. Theosophical goals are not really in vogue among satanists and Satan isn't really in vogue among theosophical and RHP Folk.
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Re: Challenges in the Star of Azazel's International Presence

Post by Aquila »

Nefastos wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:40 pm
Aquila wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:53 amI think it's not specifically a challenge of the SoA but this kind of forums in general.

I didn't mean forums particularly; the forum is just a tool, and can be replaced by better tools. I personally prefer forum discussion because of several reasons, but it would be better should this not be our only or even most important visible platform.
Aquila wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:53 amPeople have to spend so much time communicating (or passively receiving content from the web) throughout the days that writing on such demanding forums like this one might feel little bit too much.

&
Cerastes wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:11 amIn addition, people are now more likely to search on YouTube if they want information rather than taking the time to read such a complex book.


I added bolding to the problematic part. There is a line beyond which our dharma doesn't go. At least not mine; I cannot even try to help people who cannot help themselves. And trying to help people is what SoA was founded to do: it is not a social club, nor do we make money, as everyone knows.
Thank you for elaborating! There surely is a fine balance in how the fraternity's dharma can be worked upon, what kind of help to others seeking the path is enough and what is not.

This questions is intended to everyone who might want to answer: what do you think is needed and what kind of international presence is expected? What is the best way to work on it?

Don't get this wrong but I think one of the problems is that doing something does not always feel rewarding. Work leads to more work, and that work leads to others being more inactive because someone else is already doing it and then the ones doing the work get tired. The age-old challenge we have. One side of this challenge is that people think the expectations are so high that they are not able to reach them. Within this problem is hidden some of the negative and positive aspects of individualism vs. the collective which is in the heart of many challenges of our time. I think we need a different kind of system in the background and longevity in keeping it rolling. With our website and blogs, or whatever our channel of publishing online is, we should aim at "making a name" which might sound superficial but it doesn't have to be so because we shouldn't be afraid to harness some our ambitions and skills in work that can be beneficial to many. With making a name I mean publishing writings that are credible, intelligent, interesting and highly addictive in quality content :) If we want to further our international presence we just have to do it by ourselves, stay constant and not abandon the blog/website at some later point as it might take years to build. Making this work demands that more people are working behind the same goal and giving their ideas to articles, writing and publishing. When there is a goal that we share and ways to work on them, things get more rewarding by themselves as you get the feeling of being successful in what you do = feeling that you have grown and learnt during the work that you have done. The work itself becomes our teacher. Naturally little positive push is needed to help oneself and others to start the work. To help that we need to have a plan of how to do these things and what kind of system, channels etc. are needed to further the process in a way that things don't end up in the usual results. To prevent only repeating the same pattern that we have went through many times, a change in thinking is needed as much as sheer will to do something.

But after all, we already have much of what is needed. Even two or three members can organize this kind of things well, we have a website where writings can be published and other channels can be discussed.

Boreas wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 2:09 pm I'm not that surprised of the lack of international members either, for the goal of SoA is quite marginal, at least officially. These are only my thoughts, but many LHP / Satanic people may think SoA as something like a 'Jesus hippies club' while for RHP / More traditional people might think SoA as veritably a Devil's counterfeit project. Theosophical goals are not really in vogue among satanists and Satan isn't really in vogue among theosophical and RHP Folk.
Yes, this seems to happen every now and then. Often these people also have some other motivations behind and they identify the Star of Azazel with some politics they dislike or whatever. I would be happy to see the whole trend of dividing things between only two possible options in all things to disappear completely whether it's about LHP/RHP or some more earthly subject at hand that is believed to exist in two opposite poles.
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Re: Challenges in the Star of Azazel's International Presence

Post by Angolmois »

Have you considered for example an official FB page and advertising? I know it is not an optimal channel to reach esotericists and occultists, but at least you would reach many people with for example an international advertising that would sum up SoA's ideals and would be advertised with 50 to 100 euros; the people reached with this kind of sum would be close to 100 000 globally, I know from experience (I had 82 000 hits and likes for one of my posts back in 2016, and I advertised with 70 euros). If it would reach even a 0,01 % of 100 000 people who would take it seriously, it would mean something and could even predict an avalanche internationally.
Aquila wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 2:39 pmYes, this seems to happen every now and then. Often these people also have some other motivations behind and they identify the Star of Azazel with some politics they dislike or whatever. I would be happy to see the whole trend of dividing things between only two possible options in all things to disappear completely whether it's about LHP/RHP or some more earthly subject at hand that is believed to exist in two opposite poles.
These are the things I have personally heard: "group for pseudo-satanic hippies"; "it is nothing but Nefastos' jerking club"; "too much Jesus"; "They are like dark elves".
L’an mil neuf cens nonante neuf sept mois,
Du ciel viendra un grand Roy d’effrayeur,
Resusciter le grand Roy d’Angolmois,
Avan apres, Mars regner par bon heur.
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Re: Challenges in the Star of Azazel's International Presence

Post by Nefastos »

Thank you for the initiative Aquila, let's see what the other people suggest!
Boreas wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 4:50 pmHave you considered for example an official FB page and advertising?

When I talked about the challenges in the SoA international presence I didn't mean that we would not have enough interested outsiders: I meant that we as brotherhood members could make some new attempts at working for our common cause. Including perhaps some thinking outside the box how this should be managed.

Of course, one minor part of the problem might be that some potential members just do not know about us. But I think that a bigger problem is in that we current members are not able to offer the actual possibilities but for those very few who have been able to penetrate the first barriers & keep up their interest in the international side.

Boreas wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 4:50 pmThese are the things I have personally heard: "group for pseudo-satanic hippies"; "it is nothing but Nefastos' jerking club"; "too much Jesus"; "They are like dark elves".

Three of these are true, as everyone can see, but the second one is a base lie: I have never in my life experienced so many problems & challenges than those that come from my beloved brethren in the Star of Azazel.

Seriously though, if someone really thinks that we are too this or too that in the Jesus––Satan axis, or some similar dichotomy, he or she is wise to keep distance: such shallow interpretations really are not for our kind of working. The very first idea of SoA is & will be about joining the Left and the Right Hand Path, and the people who are not interested in such a wider & deeper vision should seek other organizations instead.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Re: Challenges in the Star of Azazel's International Presence

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Nefastos wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 6:42 pm When I talked about the challenges in the SoA international presence I didn't mean that we would not have enough interested outsiders: I meant that we as brotherhood members could make some new attempts at working for our common cause. Including perhaps some thinking outside the box how this should be managed.
Ok, I misinterpreted your conversation. Mea culpa!
Nefastos wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 6:42 pm
Three of these are true, as everyone can see, but the second one is a base lie: I have never in my life experienced so many problems & challenges than those that come from my beloved brethren in the Star of Azazel.
Yes, everyone involved (at some time) in the brotherhood or in this forum knows that you have been questioned and challenged very harshly. (I too was on my way to kill Nefastos. ;-) )

I see you were joking a bit (?), but concerning the titles "pseudo-satanic" and "hippie": These are usually only straw-man arguments from those who think they know what "true Satanism" is (traditional/laveyan/BM), and nowhere in SoA's writings or in this forum have I seen that for example communal living, engaging in indiscriminate free sex and in the use of psychedelics combined with social utopianism would be advocated. Surely there are points of contact with what the original hippies stood for, but also very big differences (even such a figure as Evola praised the original hippies and beatniks for their non-conformist stance).

Dark Elf sounds actually quite good! They are, after all, the forgers of the magical weapons of the Aesir gods. :-)
L’an mil neuf cens nonante neuf sept mois,
Du ciel viendra un grand Roy d’effrayeur,
Resusciter le grand Roy d’Angolmois,
Avan apres, Mars regner par bon heur.
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