Occult Economics (Distribution of Energy & the Symbol of Money)

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Smaragd
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Re: Occult Economics (Distribution of Energy & the Symbol of Money)

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Malja wrote: Fri Apr 03, 2020 11:50 pm
Polyhymnia wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:05 pm But isn't that one of the big ethical questions about altruism? Does it stop being honest altruism if the benefit runs both ways?
I used to think that there is no "true" altruism, because nobody would do anything for others if they wouldn´t somehow gain some satisfaction from it.
Now I think that´s just how we´re built: universal principles work through the chemicals in our bodies and receiving delight from altruistic actions doesn´t lessen their value.
You wouldn´t have the energy to keep on doing them without the good feelings.
And they are not just good feelings in prospering altruism I think. It’s something like a small fulfillment hinting of the wholistic world the Work leads towards. Good feelings can also be shadowed by something that keeps the good feeling from being fulfilling, like in the ice-cream example. I would like to think fulfillment is a better word, but its meaning and current can be also twisted just like the feeling of good gets easily twisted in our tortured composition.
Malja wrote: Fri Apr 03, 2020 11:50 pm I struggle with the channeling of my resources too. I hate that I have to (or should) use my capacity to counting pennies, because it seems to me that the time and effort spend is taken from more important matters, so it´s refreshing to know that it doesn´t necessarily have to be so. My spending is mostly linked with my passionate dedication in performing as little household chores as possible, so I keep on consuming way too much rather expensive snacks in order to avoid cooking and washing the dishes.
My strategy with dishes has been to own as little as possible so that no big mountains can form and devastate me. When I cook I usually have time to do the few dishes left from yesterday and the morning while the stove is heating. For me it’s about small steps: going to the kitchen is easier when you know there’s not alot of dishes, cooking doesn’t take so much when there’s dishes ready to be put on the stove and you know you are not going to make a mount of dishes, for during the heating you have time to do the previous ones. This isn’t working always, for I haven’t quite gotten in to truly minimalistic with my belongings (having to own quite a bit of containers for doing berry picking and freezing them, and having additional dishes for guests, or rather a guest if we’re talking about a whole meal). Then there’s seasons I’m unable to deal with that sort of stuff. Why?

I guess its got to do with hope. The dish situation is hopeless and thus devastating and I got tons of other things that feel more important to go through. But everything is shadowed and blurred by the devastation in one corner of the life. Realizing the meaning in everyday chores can be very fulfilling. (I must admit I have washed my windows in this apartment where I’ve lived over half a decade maybe once if even that!) I think the same can happen between romantic relationships; hope for a working relationship is lost after one going down. All the optimism and trust for such a thing being able to work is taken from you and there’s just this devastating heaviness. There’s no hope, for in the previous relationship some of those little steps weren’t taken, and this creates a black hole where all energy and optimism is drawn until something (or in the relationship context) someone is found that can take that crucial step without falling through. In the world of occultism where such holes are discovered all the time as the pace of walking the path is accelerated by consciously taking the yoke on ones shoulders, one ends up painfully aware of these holes. It’s important to give others chances to making through them, and realize that not everybody has done it the same way. The pessimism, which easily lifts its head, if the pace of life has been too crowded to give chances to deeply reflect every aspect and situation of what has happened in it, can actually twist ones views and make one blind to the achievements of others, whether its about some other solution to the same steps or accumulation of further steps that make it look like one of the previous steps weren’t taken. Of this last bit, those seeing Lucifer and Christ ultimately as one propably has alot of experiences; being straightforward, clarity seeking and executing virtues to the best of ones abilities can actually start look like one is dodging the shadow, while in reality it can actually be that one is constantly in touch with it in a burning union. But even from that point a bark can form around and some aspect of Satan, for example, to be underpresented, which isn't optimal for every situation.

Dodged the money thing here, but it's still about economics and distribution of energy! :roll:
"Would to God that all the Lords people were Prophets"
- William Blake
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Re: Occult Economics (Distribution of Energy & the Symbol of Money)

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Nefastos wrote: Sat Apr 04, 2020 1:10 pm I used to ponder upon these things endlessly, to be able to free myself from egotism. Finally I went to such extremes in this that I had finally turned evil into a virtue, because doing something that would be enjoyable to me would be selfish, even if it'd help others. Going too far into "good" is to emerge from the blackest of evils, because going too far always tells of personal problems, and finally the mind breaks in its stressed emphases.
It looks like many seekers get obsessed about spiritual or ethical principle or two, which then creates unbalance. It's so much more demanding to consider many principles at the same time.
I used to laugh at my christian friend who was so obsessed about being truthful that the way she expressed herself was endless list of sidenotes to something she had said before. Though I wasn't any better, many times I just prefered not to speak because the risk of involuntarily lying is so great or the tone of my voice might have contradicted my words. Communication is dangerous :lol:
Sometimes I wonder if taking things too far is sometimes about making life simpler: You burn few bridges so there isn't so many to choose upon.
It's really beneficial to enjoy the so called virtues, since we tend to gravitate towards activities which make us feel good, though the impact to the mind of the doer is different depending on whether your joy comes from following a valuable principle, seeing the joy/relief of others, seeing yourself as a "good person" or being seen as a "good person". I suppose the first one is most reliable, since it doesn't require any outer results in order to provide satisfaction.
Nefastos wrote: Sat Apr 04, 2020 1:10 pm There really is no way to safeguard one from mistakes, but the constant striving to do the right thing. Even when actually doing the left.
Nice wordplay you have here :D
Nefastos wrote: Sat Apr 04, 2020 1:10 pm
Finally it dawned to me that the problem is not egotism, which we cannot fight in a way of endlessly thinking about the self (duh) and problems of selfhood, however philosophically, but the problem is not doing work for the others. Whether that helps oneself or not is not meaningful per se. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. It is simply besides the point. When we think about ethics, we (should) mostly think about the Other, and the result for Self is not the only or even the most important question in this.
I agree, if ego is a process of the mind, directing attention to it will only make it stronger. Overthinking motivation can really become a huge hindrance and it's
sort of a first world problem. It would be really luxorious to be able to refrain your actions until you have a perfect motivation. I use too much energy analysing whether I am operating from a place of love or fear or whatever instead of thinking how I could do it better. Or just doing the damn thing..

Cerastes wrote: Sat Apr 04, 2020 3:09 pm Fra Nefastos already put it in words much better than I could.
I would agree from -my- psychological point of view, although of course there is no consistent consensus on this. (There never is) Basically, in my opinion, everything finds its way to the surface and manifests itself in one way o another. This knowledge is partly used on a therapeutic level in the so called Catharsis methode. For example in aggression therapy, where violent men and women learn to use their penchant for physical aggression, for sports ect. and thus create positive experiences with it. One cannot prohibit or suppress emotions, drives and needs. But you can change the behavior, i.e. the type of manifestation, that follows the emotion/drive/need. Anger does not have to automatically result in someone's head being punched. If someone lives out their emotions in a way that has negative consequences, then they get a perverted relationship to this very emotion because they already know the consequences before they start acting. In this case, anger also receives a negative suggestion, which in turn makes defective behavior more likely. This also happens in anxiety disorder when people start to fear their own fear. You own anger can make you angry and your own love can make you loving, depending on the behavior and the expected result of the said emotion.
This sounds very easily in theory, but it used in therapeutic environment within professional psychological treatment. In most cases it is not a “do it yourself” approach, because it can go terribly wrong and end up in triggering or perverting emotions.
Is this Catharsis methode based on psychodynamical theories?
What kind of consequenses there might be if this method goes wrong?
Cerastes wrote: Sat Apr 04, 2020 3:09 pm Actually I find sor Polyhymnias comment(s) quite heart warming. They always keep me from my tendency to intellectualize the human psyche as a object of study instead of being empathic.
This intellectualizing you mentioned is one reason I abandoned my former plan to study psychology in university. I thought that it would have resulted me living in my head even more than before so I chose another path instead.
I'm not saying studying psychology does that to everyone, I just envisioned it
would do that to me.
Ave wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:27 am Well, actually it fits together quite well. People who perceive and maybe even absorb many energies and signals from their fellow human beings are sometimes less aware of their own experiences. In extreme cases, people can even understand others better than themselves, until that completely stops. Can you remember how other people did better than how you did? (Rhetorical question) If so, then you might be a damn good listener and therapist.
What do you mean, "until that completely stops"?
People seem to enjoy telling me even their innermost feelings, because I don't judge, but me being a good listener has sort of a bitter aftertaste because I know I would talk more and listen less if I wouldn't get so easily overwhelmed by the sensory overload of social situations.
Smaragd wrote: Sun Apr 05, 2020 10:04 am And they are not just good feelings in prospering altruism I think. It’s something like a small fulfillment hinting of the wholistic world the Work leads towards. Good feelings can also be shadowed by something that keeps the good feeling from being fulfilling, like in the ice-cream example. I would like to think fulfillment is a better word, but its meaning and current can be also twisted just like the feeling of good gets easily twisted in our tortured composition.
I was just being lazy and using the first word that came to my mind. :lol:
Smaragd wrote: Sun Apr 05, 2020 10:04 am Realizing the meaning in everyday chores can be very fulfilling.
I'm currently working on my mindset, trying to see the everyday chores as a karma yogic service to my future self.
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Re: Occult Economics (Distribution of Energy & the Symbol of Money)

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Malja wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 9:02 pm Is this Catharsis methode based on psychodynamical theories?
I have no idea.
It plays in the say team, so to say but I don't know if is based on such a theory.
Malja wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 9:02 pm What kind of consequenses there might be if this method goes wrong?
There is a thin line between taming your demons and feeding your demons. In this case an outer opinion might be important because concious and subconcious mind often play tricks on each other.
To handle this, one needs an extremly high level of honest self-reflection and that‘s harder than it may seem. There in no „one size fits all“ in this case and bringing destructive or dark impulses to the surface can go wrong , harm others or even drive a person completly mad.

 
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Re: Occult Economics (Distribution of Energy & the Symbol of Money)

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Cerastes wrote: Wed May 06, 2020 7:53 pm There is a thin line between taming your demons and feeding your demons. In this case an outer opinion might be important because concious and subconcious mind often play tricks on each other.
To handle this, one needs an extremly high level of honest self-reflection and that‘s harder than it may seem. There in no „one size fits all“ in this case and bringing destructive or dark impulses to the surface can go wrong , harm others or even drive a person completly mad.
I think honest self-reflection may be one of the hardest things someone can do. A friend recently asked a question on her social media account asking what one would do if they got to the end of their life and realized the belief system they had based their entire life upon was wrong. Every single person who commented immediately set about defending why their belief (which was usually a lack of belief since atheism seems to be quite popular) allowed them to avoid that scenario entirely. Missing the point of the entire question.
She's quite popular so she had dozens of answers, and no-one was willing to give an answer that required them to hypothetically be wrong.
"Limited love asks for possession of the beloved, but the unlimited asks only for itself." -Kahlil Gibran
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Re: Occult Economics (Distribution of Energy & the Symbol of Money)

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Polyhymnia wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 8:32 pm
Cerastes wrote: Wed May 06, 2020 7:53 pm There is a thin line between taming your demons and feeding your demons. In this case an outer opinion might be important because concious and subconcious mind often play tricks on each other.
To handle this, one needs an extremly high level of honest self-reflection and that‘s harder than it may seem. There in no „one size fits all“ in this case and bringing destructive or dark impulses to the surface can go wrong , harm others or even drive a person completly mad.
I think honest self-reflection may be one of the hardest things someone can do. A friend recently asked a question on her social media account asking what one would do if they got to the end of their life and realized the belief system they had based their entire life upon was wrong. Every single person who commented immediately set about defending why their belief (which was usually a lack of belief since atheism seems to be quite popular) allowed them to avoid that scenario entirely. Missing the point of the entire question.
She's quite popular so she had dozens of answers, and no-one was willing to give an answer that required them to hypothetically be wrong.
I think the hardest thing with honest self-reflection is how to deal with the impulse towards change that comes with the realization that you could do better. You should be able to tolerate the status quo just enough that you can work towards better situation with clear mind instead of blindly rushing to anything that is somehow different than the starting point. But if you tolerate too well there's no need for change and therefore no motivation.
If it would be just realizing something without the need to act upon it, I suppose it would be easier to see your mind as it is. The natural tendency towards saving energy acts against the pursuit of honest self-reflection, because you know that new information is accompanied by the pressure for change, which reguires effort.
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Re: Occult Economics (Distribution of Energy & the Symbol of Money)

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Polyhymnia wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 8:32 pm I think honest self-reflection may be one of the hardest things someone can do. A friend recently asked a question on her social media account asking what one would do if they got to the end of their life and realized the belief system they had based their entire life upon was wrong. Every single person who commented immediately set about defending why their belief (which was usually a lack of belief since atheism seems to be quite popular) allowed them to avoid that scenario entirely. Missing the point of the entire question.
She's quite popular so she had dozens of answers, and no-one was willing to give an answer that required them to hypothetically be wrong.
This is actually an indication that people are insecure about their worldview. You only defend things that are threatened and therefore vulnerable.
But you're right, people use so much energy to defend their point of view that they like to close it for new information. Atheists are often no better than religious people. The word "self-conscious" is often used as a synonym for "self-confident". (At least in German, I don't know about English) Perhaps because these terms have been strongly defined from the perspective of psychology. This is interesting because the more conscious a person is about his/her own motives, the more certain s/he can be about them. Real confidence never comes without consciousness. Confidence minus consciousness is arrogance and arrogance is the enemy of knowledge and understanding.
“Granny Weatherwax was not lost. She wasn't the kind of person who ever became lost. It was just that, at the moment, while she knew exactly where SHE was, she didn't know the position of anywhere else.”
(Terry Pratchett, Wyrd Sisters)
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