Why NOT Use Magic?

Rituals, spells, prayer, meditation and magical acts.
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Nefastos
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Why NOT Use Magic?

Postby Nefastos » Wed May 20, 2015 9:47 pm

For most of people, the answer is simple: one doesn't actually believe that it works.

Many occultists, however, do. So the question is, why not use magic for every thing in your life, if you either feel it could help, or are sure it would?

This is actually a thing we discussed with the innermost circle of the brotherhood years back. By then every brother gave a somewhat similar answer, which might be summed up like this: When one has reached the state where there is enough sacred reverence, love, honesty & purity of will that the forces can be summoned with relative ease, there seldom is anything one could wish for that expects or can be helped by such straight means. It's like having a fortune in radioactive bills in your hands; there are few situations you know you can use them without causing some problems and/or/thus strengthening the karmic bondage. Karma certainly is the sword of Damocles hanging over any a would be master adept.

But since it seems that it is not usual to believe in karma – or that every action & even thought we choose to follow are judged by their ethical worth, & according to that have their equally positive or negative effect on ourselves with the same relative power – in the Left Hand Path in general, what are the other reasons for not using magic constantly in one's everyday life?

Now when I'm writing this, I'm aware that most of the answers will most probably be on the lines like: "While I believe in the psychological & elevating power of theurgy, I simply don't believe that my magic spells or prayers would have any tangible effect in addition to the purely subjective ones." That is fine. But I'd be most interested to hear also the answers from people who actually believe in magic that can shape the physical universe around us. That is, however, quite a persistent idea in many an esoteric world view.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Re: Why NOT Use Magic?

Postby RaktaZoci » Thu May 21, 2015 10:36 am

An important question, I'm sure!

From a personal view I'd say that to use magic for everyday chores and just for convenience would be extremely selfish. I mean this in no judging way and if someone wishes to act in such a way it is their choice. There is a danger here though: If something is used constantly it is easy to be consumed by it by taking it for granted.

Also, even if this would be possible I'd rather not do it, because I enjoy the struggle. Everything in this (or indeed any) world should be earned, I think, and nothing comes for free. Sometimes this might seem incorrect, but the counter effect will take place eventually.

I realize, however, that I myself might quite possibly work in the mentioned way unconsciously, even though I try to avoid it. But maybe this falls to a different category, since it is more of the internal being reflected to the external, rather than trying to manipulate it consciously?
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Re: Why NOT Use Magic?

Postby Nokkonen » Tue Jun 02, 2015 12:32 am

Assuming magic is real, and I still am hesitant to say it is even if I dabble with it, it is often very exhausting to use -- at least for me. All the magical rituals I've ever done that reached the necessary state of "oomph" (mostly they were for my inner workings) have left me empty and exhausted for days afterwards. Assuming it even was possible, doing magic for everyday little things would be silly since with mundane matters, usually just going about doing them seems much more energy-efficient.
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Re: Why NOT Use Magic?

Postby RaktaZoci » Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:32 am

It is always inspiring to read one's own thoughts from some years ago, like in the beginning of this thread. I do believe, however, that by reflection like this we can learn from our past and use it as a sort of a sign post in life. And of course, later ideas are not necessarily better than the previous ones, but one tends to develop over the years, atleast a little, on the occult path.

But to the actual topic. The headline of this thread is not exactly what I wanted to talk about, but I think it's close enough and I didn't want to flood the forum with too many new topics. Recently I started to ponder about ritual magic and its absence in my life. I've always felt that I wasn't ready for such a thing and thought it might also be dangerous. This is most likely true, in a manner of speaking, but now I've started to form a theory of why I have worked as I have and how it could reflect the ritualisic aspect too.

This whole topic was refreshed in my head as I was reading fra Nefastos' explanation on our reading group of The Mahathma letters here. It occurred to me that these two ways of approach (ritual and non-ritual) might, in the end, reach for the same goal. I always felt I didn't want to do ritual work since I wasn't ready enough and that I couldn't handle it if something unwanted came through. As Nefastos talks of defences in his explanation, this reminded me of the usual banishing rituals often used in ritual magic (such as LPRP). The ritualist seems to think, though, that these protections will be so powerful that no trace of the act itself is left in them. This I find faulty. Magical acts always have effects in their wielder and if one is not prepared for these effects, there will be trouble.

Now, what I'm trying to say is that I've started to discover that it might be possible to reach similar results, in a manner of speaking, by personal development without the use of ritualistic elements. Or atleast this is what I have personally witnessed. Do we have a differing opinion in this? I do recognize the significance of the praxis of the ritual, as it might help to structure the inner meaning behind it, but I still think this meaning can be learned also without the practical element.

So, I guess I'm asking is is possible to practice magic completely without the ritual element involved? I believe so, but then again, to define what is considered a ritual element might vary. Please share your experiences..
die Eule der Minerva beginnt erst mit der einbrechenden Dämmerung ihren Flug.
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Re: Why NOT Use Magic?

Postby Insanus » Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:33 am

To avoid responsibility.
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Re: Why NOT Use Magic?

Postby Yinlong » Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:00 pm

Insanus wrote:To avoid responsibility.
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Re: Why NOT Use Magic?

Postby Kenazis » Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:10 pm

RaktaZoci wrote:Now, what I'm trying to say is that I've started to discover that it might be possible to reach similar results, in a manner of speaking, by personal development without the use of ritualistic elements. Or atleast this is what I have personally witnessed. Do we have a differing opinion in this? I do recognize the significance of the praxis of the ritual, as it might help to structure the inner meaning behind it, but I still think this meaning can be learned also without the practical element.

So, I guess I'm asking is is possible to practice magic completely without the ritual element involved? I believe so, but then again, to define what is considered a ritual element might vary. Please share your experiences..
I've been interested about ritual- and ceremonial magic whole the time (i've been on this path), but it's not the most natural or very often used magical approach in my life. I see the magic being mostly in the area outside of structural ritual and ceremony. These two (ritual and ceremony) are just an outer form channelling the intent and force. For me the "magical path" is mostly equal with holistic progression that I see as form of theurgy. Strenghtening your progressive personal qualities by deepening understanding, empathetic attitude and will towards good, is in my eyes devotional work for Satan. Ritual without meaning and understanding is dead form, but meaning and understanding without ritual can be magic.
"In darkness let me dwell, The ground shall sorrow be..."
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Re: Why NOT Use Magic?

Postby Nefastos » Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:47 pm

Kenazis wrote:I see the magic being mostly in the area outside of structural ritual and ceremony. These two (ritual and ceremony) are just an outer form channelling the intent and force. For me the "magical path" is mostly equal with holistic progression that I see as form of theurgy. Strenghtening your progressive personal qualities by deepening understanding, empathetic attitude and will towards good


This is one of the reasons why in the Star of Azazel's system the White and the Stone are connected, instead of White & Eye / Black & Stone, which would have also been possible. They are both the aspects of "magic" in a similar way, even though Stone works with ceremonial emphasis and White with "living water", that is, emphasis on energetical. (Which, in turn, also connects White with the Chalice... and so on, the thread of permutations cognizes the whole Metatronic maze.) Thus, our system underlines the magical path connecting Venus and Moon. Another example would be how in our Moon many Venerian aspects are accentuated. This is, in a way, a more "matriarchal" – and thus also more Oedipal (by which I do not mean necessarily bad things) – way of magic.

In a way – as we can very well also say that all the aspects are "aspects of magic", naturally – all the Work is necessarily magic & theurgy, if done right. But I think that the step that formulates magic into a certain kind of structural practice, a magic ceremony or a use of spell for example, seals the binding in a way that at the same time (and they are the same thing) a) hastens the process of outer manifestation into a potentially possible instant happening, and b) puts us under the full karmic effect of an event thus summoned.

This is something that the shallow practitioner of magic do not realize, even while they might claim to. Using formal magic is like walking willingly into the spider-web with precisely the similar (they are the same) intention & side-effects that we have put in motion with our magic-infused will. For someone who struggles to reach nirvâna, such karmic webs are abhorrent if they are not absolutely needed in the long run, because of personal and/or (for once again these two are the same) more macrocosmic reasons.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Re: Why NOT Use Magic?

Postby obnoxion » Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:03 pm

I consider that any spirituality that has both breadth and depth, needs to have a dimension of ceremonial elaboration. But I would say that such dimension tends to become a support for a sort of transcendantalist stasis, that is so common in our times. I do found myself more in the school of immanence, and my idea of magic tends to focus more and more on the simple but profound world of folk magic and traditional superstitions. This is something, though, that I do find in beautiful fragments from high ceremony also, and they seem to function there as a source of power.

In general I find it best to have magic as internalized aspect of one's mundane life, and this is actually one of the more practical and valuable Tantric teaching for modern life. For example, when I was younger I used to work as a cleaner. Every day on the job was for me an internalized Tantric sadhana. And every day I felt spiritually refreshed and perfectly content, and my life felt perfect as it was.

Perhaps I could put it this way: Magic is the immanence and the intimacy of one's religion, and as thus it ought be internalized to the point of it being recognized in each moment and aspect of one's life, and thus becoming a spontanious energization that saturates with meaning the whole of existence. It is art of life that makes the routine into a ritual, each sound a hymn, each glimpse a revelation and all sensation into a touch by God. It is the realism of pantheism.

Why not use magic would thus be inseparable from how not use magic - that is, as a separate aspect of one's life, and as an escape from the present.
One day of Brahma has 14 Indras; his life has 54 000 Indras. One day of Vishnu is the lifetime of Brahma. The lifetime of Vishnu is one day of Shiva.
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Re: Why NOT Use Magic?

Postby Nefastos » Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:18 pm

In this, we also come to the age-old question: what is, and what is not, magic? Personally I see that there is no thing that is "not magic". There is no normality; the whole cosmos is a miracle, a thought and energy made physics & flesh, a constant marvel.

That said, in the opening I meant the thing that many call "higher" magic, and which I would like to call "lesser" one: the magic use which is ritualized and outwardly formulated.

I consider such symbolical magic-use, which operates much through our lower threefold form, the minor form of magic. Magic in its higher form is independent of outer form. Let us consider "gods" (or God, if one so prefers), for example: their magic is the most powerful type of magic possible, and yet they do not have bodies or rituals to accomplish it, the nature itself becoming their body and ritual. Such is also the highest form of human magic, the magic which is âtma-buddhi-manasic and transcends kâma-manas, permeating (and thus transmuting) the astral.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"

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