Satan - Real Entity or Archetype?

Questions directed to the Star of Azazel.
Vavrinec
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Satan - Real Entity or Archetype?

Postby Vavrinec » Mon Oct 10, 2016 4:02 pm

As I was reading Frater Nefasto's book, Argarizim, I came upon a passage in chapter 3 'Insatiati' section V, where he claims that Satan is a real being. He goes into depth as to why he believes this is so, but it created some questions I would like to ask here:

1) Isn't Satan just a mythical archetype & a reflection of man's inner most desires?
2) Wouldn't the worshipping of Satan as a real being create dogma just like religions who worship God? Isn't Satanism & Luciferianism antidogmatic?
3) Why would you feel Satan is real & not an archetype?
4) Why is it that I see such parallels between Lucifer & Christ? (Meaning: Lucifer rebelled against God in Heaven & got tossed out & Christ rebelled against God on Earth & was crucified. )

I would appreciate any answer, view, & philosophy on these questions.
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Kenazis
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Re: Satan - Real Entity or Archetype?

Postby Kenazis » Mon Oct 10, 2016 5:38 pm

Vavrinec wrote:As I was reading Frater Nefasto's book, Argarizim, I came upon a passage in chapter 3 'Insatiati' section V, where he claims that Satan is a real being. He goes into depth as to why he believes this is so, but it created some questions I would like to ask here:
1) Isn't Satan just a mythical archetype & a reflection of man's inner most desires?
2) Wouldn't the worshipping of Satan as a real being create dogma just like religions who worship God? Isn't Satanism & Luciferianism antidogmatic?
3) Why would you feel Satan is real & not an archetype?
4) Why is it that I see such parallels between Lucifer & Christ? (Meaning: Lucifer rebelled against God in Heaven & got tossed out & Christ rebelled against God on Earth & was crucified. )
I would appreciate any answer, view, & philosophy on these questions.
I try to share some thoughts about these interesting questions.
1) Isn't Satan just a mythical archetype & a reflection of man's inner most desires?
I think here it's important to concentrate what "real" means. For example, I see thoughts being as real as physical material. So Seeing Satan as a mythical archetype is not in contradiction Satan being very real. Satan being reflection of man's inner most desires sounds pretty limited and I would add that our inner most desires can be understood being reflection of Satan.
2) Wouldn't the worshipping of Satan as a real being create dogma just like religions who worship God? Isn't Satanism & Luciferianism antidogmatic?
I see Satan to be a part of whole (of existence). If by dogmas we mean strict unquestionable rules, then I don't see why worshipping any godhood would inevitable lead to dogmatism. However, if by dogmas we mean basic rules to follow, then I think everything (Luciferianism, Satanism, Christianity etc.) is dogmatic in some degree. If there are some laws, following them isn't dogmatic per se, but often common sense, or must.
3) Why would you feel Satan is real & not an archetype?
Archetypes for me are real enough. I don't believe material entity called Satan that appears to my eyes.
4) Why is it that I see such parallels between Lucifer & Christ? (Meaning: Lucifer rebelled against God in Heaven & got tossed out & Christ rebelled against God on Earth & was crucified. )
Good point! They are both Light-bringers, rebellions, forces that move and unveil.
"In darkness let me dwell, The ground shall sorrow be..."
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Nefastos
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Re: Satan - Real Entity or Archetype?

Postby Nefastos » Tue Oct 11, 2016 11:14 am

Thank you for the questions Vavrinec, very essential & useful ones indeed.

Brother Kenazis already answered in much the same way I would have, & hopefully other people too can contribute & share their views. Some thoughts on my own part, though.

Vavrinec wrote:1) Isn't Satan just a mythical archetype & a reflection of man's inner most desires?

My own world view is such that I do see the everyday phenomena less real than the metaphysical and/or spiritual entities. Thus I'd rather say that man's innermost desires are more like reflections from these archetypes, who are actual divinities. By divinity, I mean real entities that are not humanlike, but yet (super-)conscious in their own supertemporal level of existence. Anthropomorphic gods are just symbols, true gods are more like laws of nature.

Vavrinec wrote:2) Wouldn't the worshipping of Satan as a real being create dogma just like religions who worship God? Isn't Satanism & Luciferianism antidogmatic?

Like Kenazis brought up, this depends how "dogma" is defined. If it is defined loosely as the basic assumptions that people can read as they want and still remain in "ecclesia" (for example, our brotherhood), then every possible world view, including the scientific or sceptical ones, have their own "dogmas". But if we take the word more strictly, then no, Satan worship is not dogmatic, since there are so many possibilities how the doctrine can be actually taken. For example, Kenazis & I have a somewhat different approach to the existence of gods, and other brethren have other different views, but they are encouraged rather than supressed.

Vavrinec wrote:3) Why would you feel Satan is real & not an archetype?

As said, for me archetype is reality. Why I see Satan as an entity, a being that has its own mind and thoughts (not in a human way, of course), is mainly because of my metaphysical studies (philosophy). I can't appeal to any spiritual experiences of mine, since such experiences are one's own only and have no truth value for any other people.

Vavrinec wrote:4) Why is it that I see such parallels between Lucifer & Christ? (Meaning: Lucifer rebelled against God in Heaven & got tossed out & Christ rebelled against God on Earth & was crucified. )

That indeed is one of the ideas of the Argarizim, and why it was first released as the pair of books, the first dealing with the doctrine of Christ, the Mountain and the Right Hand Path, and the second dealind with the doctrine of Lucifer, the Dantean "inverted mountain" and the Left Hand Path. The fundamental idea is that these actually become the one and the same path, when either one is purified from its gross elements. In the Rosary of Azazel practice we reach for the "Lucifer-Christos", the serpent savior within man himself (but still being higher than his everyday personality).
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Demergon
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Re: Satan - Real Entity or Archetype?

Postby Demergon » Wed Oct 12, 2016 10:52 am

1) Isn't Satan just a mythical archetype & a reflection of man's inner most desires?
I feel that you are your own reflection of your inner most desires. Satan shows you not only desires but is the utmost initiator of the human spirit.
2) Wouldn't the worshipping of Satan as a real being create dogma just like religions who worship God? Isn't Satanism & Luciferianism antidogmatic?
Since the "dogm" you are creating is very personal and true to you, I don't see a parallel between the two. See Nefastos' point on non-existent "orthodox satanism".
3) Why would you feel Satan is real & not an archetype?
I would personally not separate these two. Archetype == reality.


I hope my very subjective answers are of some use.
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Vavrinec
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Re: Satan - Real Entity or Archetype?

Postby Vavrinec » Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:05 pm

I have another question for the Brotherhood that most likely would fall under this topic. While reading your book 'Unseen Fire' there was an article that covered the origin myth of Azazel. I can't help but notice the how close to Melek Taus - The Peacock God - this seemed to be. Melek Taus was a rebellious angel, according to the myth, who was rewarded for his rebellion & became the patron of a middle eastern tribe. Am I correct in this observation? If I am please ellaborate if not please explain.
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Heith
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Re: Satan - Real Entity or Archetype?

Postby Heith » Fri Oct 21, 2016 3:52 pm

Vavrinec wrote: While reading your book 'Unseen Fire' there was an article that covered the origin myth of Azazel.
Are you referring to frater obnoxion's "Aspects of Azazel" - article? I'm very pleased, by the way, that the publication has found its way to you! :D
Vavrinec
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Re: Satan - Real Entity or Archetype?

Postby Vavrinec » Sun Oct 23, 2016 3:37 pm

Yes I was referring to the Frater's article & was noting the similarities Azazel & Melek Taus have in common.
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Re: Satan - Real Entity or Archetype?

Postby obnoxion » Wed Oct 26, 2016 4:12 pm

First I would like to thank you for your interest! I have a deep appreciation for the published Yezidi Sacred Texts, and I feel they have an universal aspect to which I can strongly relate. On the other hand, Yezidis are a genuine Tribal Tradition, and thus there is a clear exclusive aspect also. So out of respect to Yezidis, I chose not to speculate on their Sacred Texts in my article. I've understood that Yezidis have been upset with the way Anton LaVey treated their Tradition in his books, and I do not want to add to the heavy burden of the Yezidi by any inconsidered speculation. So this is how I have chosen to show reverence to Melek Ta'us and His people. In fact, one could say that - at least for me personaly - He is the forbidden or the unapproachable aspect of Azazel.
One day of Brahma has 14 Indras; his life has 54 000 Indras. One day of Vishnu is the lifetime of Brahma. The lifetime of Vishnu is one day of Shiva.
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Adrian1192
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Re: Satan - Real Entity or Archetype?

Postby Adrian1192 » Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:33 am

Maybe is kind of late for me to add something to the topic, but it is still interesting enough to give it a shot.


Vavrinec wrote: 1) Isn't Satan just a mythical archetype & a reflection of man's inner most desires?
Mithology itself has the quality to transcend all human needs. As put in the book "Pathways to bliss" Joseph Campbell said in a speech that Muslow's pyramid of human needs made him think a little bit when he first saw it and he didn't know why, then after some minutes he realised why. He said that mythological beings transced all of that. Gods are not just archetypes or reflections of men's inner desires, they are beings which not only can reveal our true nature, but transcend all of the Ego's needs (like desire of acceptance, others approval or even time itself).
Vavrinec wrote: 2) Wouldn't the worshipping of Satan as a real being create dogma just like religions who worship God? Isn't Satanism & Luciferianism antidogmatic?
Not really, it depends also on how rock-headed an individual is, I would say. I would say that worship of Satan or Lucifer has anything to do with dogma, but sometimes you truly find someone to regard others as "untrue" or "profane" for not agreeing with him/her.

Vavrinec wrote: 3) Why would you feel Satan is real & not an archetype?
First of all, what do you define as real? As it was put earlier thoughts are very real, now try to think of the things within the unconscious mind which transcend the conscious' mind thought. I would say that gods are very real, but not on the scientifical perspective, but rather on a more subjective/intuitive side. Also, seeing it as an archetype is the very basic beginning in understanding how much more than just "fiction" those things are.

Vavrinec wrote: 4) Why is it that I see such parallels between Lucifer & Christ? (Meaning: Lucifer rebelled against God in Heaven & got tossed out & Christ rebelled against God on Earth & was crucified. )


Maybe there are some similarities between Lucifer and Christ, but I wouldn't say those two have so much in common after all. From what I know, Christ did not rebel against God, he rebelled against the judaic law and tried to give God's message to people in a better articulated manner so God wouldn't choose to say "you know what? people were a mistake, erase them". It might be because I have a Gnostic approach why I see it like this, but with Lucifer, Lucifer is totally different from Jesus. His light is of a very different manner, a type of "infernal light". You can think of Lucifer's light as the light of alchemists, lumen naturae, a light hidden in nature that is not an opposite or different force from darkness, as with that from Jesus or Yahweh (referred to it also as the thoughtful light of creation), but rather the light of enlightenment. This kind of light appears when one resists the natural instinct of running away from darkness, and out of its intrisic strength and value, darkness lights itself up in a very paradoxical thing, the "black light" or the thoughtless light of the Divine, as referred to by the Gnostic Satanists.
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music" -Friedrich Nietzsche

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