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Re: Why Jesus? (Or, why not)

Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 2:55 pm
by obnoxion
Kavi wrote: Thu May 21, 2020 2:36 pm I always had an intuitive feeling, unlike some of radical Christians, that what mattered most of Jesus was his teachings, ethics and symbolism found in Gospels.
I think perhaps most important thing is how Jesus teaches in the Gospels. Every act is a symbol, each sentence an analogy.
There is a laconism to Jesus' teachings, which pertains to visual thinkers, such as Seers. William Blake stressed rightly the importance of this aspect of Jesus, compared to the Pauline concept of vicarious savior to be unquestioningly accepted. I think there is transcendence rather in the ongoing, living interpretatio of Jesus' acts and words; to gaining sight to things we cannot conceptualize to common verbal instructions.

"Thine is the friend of all mankind,
Mine speaks in parables to the blind."

- William Blake on Jesus -

Re: Why Jesus? (Or, why not)

Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 3:19 pm
by Kavi
obnoxion wrote: Thu May 21, 2020 2:55 pm
Kavi wrote: Thu May 21, 2020 2:36 pm I always had an intuitive feeling, unlike some of radical Christians, that what mattered most of Jesus was his teachings, ethics and symbolism found in Gospels.
I think perhaps most important thing is how Jesus teaches in the Gospels. Every act is a symbol, each sentence an analogy.
There is a laconism to Jesus' teachings, which pertains to visual thinkers, such as Seers. William Blake stressed rightly the importance of this aspect of Jesus, compared to the Pauline concept of vicarious savior to be unquestioningly accepted. I think there is transcendence rather in the ongoing, living interpretatio of Jesus' acts and words; to gaining sight to things we cannot conceptualize to common verbal instructions.

"Thine is the friend of all mankind,
Mine speaks in parables to the blind."

- William Blake on Jesus -
What a wonderful quote.
I have always wanted to read William Blake but probably I have been too afraid to look into it thinking English is too impenetrable for me. But probably it's not the case.

Re: Why Jesus? (Or, why not)

Posted: Fri May 22, 2020 1:02 pm
by Insanus
I recently read the bible a bit, Romans, specifically. There:

3:20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God's sight by the works of the Law; rather through the law we become conscious of our sin.

5:20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,

7:2 For example by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies she is released from the law that binds him to her.
7:6 But now by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.

10:4 Christ is the culmination of law

10:4 is sometimes translated "Christ is the end of the law" which emphasises dying, whereas this culmination-translation emphasises that Christ is not reactive antithesis of the law. Here it seems that Christ is sort of a state of consciousness that can be reached by "dying to what once bound us", certainly has a buddhist flavor to it.
Not to re-mention Kavi's point about antinomian acts to fulfill the law.

Re: Why Jesus? (Or, why not)

Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2020 3:32 am
by Angolmois
I have quite little interests in the historicity of Jesus but I value many of the teachings given in his name, be they canonical, gnostic or apocryphal.

In the past I was very much against any kind of Jesus, but this was only because of the distortions and out right idiocy of the whole Christian enterprise which I then associated with Jesus and rejected vehemently since teenage, against better knowledge. It was when I started studying the occult and came across heretical views that my interests in the actual teachings of Christ arouse, and Nefastos' book commentary of the Sermon on the Mount cemented my views of Jesus as a high initiate.

As an "odinist" my main priority is to seek knowledge and wisdom, and I don't really care from what source this wisdom comes if I recognise it as such. It is the warrior aspect of Jesus that has the most value for me personally; one who struggles against ignorance and injustice in the name of a higher ideal. It has been said: Christ was a Heathen.

There is a high value in the Christ mythos for any esotericist, since once one treads the occult path seriously, one will most certainly experience the main points of the myth first handedly.

Re: Why Jesus? (Or, why not)

Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2020 11:51 am
by Nefastos
Boreas wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 3:32 amIt has been said: Christ was a Heathen.

Today I sent the last commentary of the Old Testament in the reading group that has now been functioning sixty weeks. It is a great relief to let go of the Old Covenant's evil tyrant God, and face the more loving face – at least occasionally! – of the God in the "New Covenant", or Christ. (Of course I am personally very sceptic do the Christians understand the whole Covenant thing very well, since spilling of innocent blood is not high on my own magical acts in theology or elsewhere.)

But it was just the last week when I wrote, while commenting the Book of Nahum, that:

Jesus' teaching of non-resistance (or non-violent resistance) and tenderness also towards one's "enemies" is therefore easier to join to the pagan religions than his own background of Judaism. That is, the master of Christian faith is therefore (to me) closer to pagan than his own Jewish basis of faith.

But this said, it has also been very illuminating for me to see many topoi that we nowadays only know from Christianity in the Jewish religion of the Old Testament. They are not morals but sayings, paraphrases, ways of verbalizing things. Many sayings of Jesus & the ways he acted are now much more understandable to me.

And one question arises from these two things: Was Jesus' death also partly rising from his background, where suffering seems to be a glorified part of the process? Did he actually give in to the gestalt spirit of martyrdom, where that could have been averted, and better things gained from a bloodless religion? Was to die Jesus' fall as a master adept?

Perhaps not, but I have to let these possibilities arise, and go through them carefully.

Re: Why Jesus? (Or, why not)

Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:17 pm
by Angolmois
This kind of "Christ with Pagan's" kind of thought pleases my own sensibilities very well, and makes me wonder how the early Christians found their home easily with the Greeks, for whom Platonism had already pawed the way for Christianity in many respects. It also makes me think of the Mormons - if any! - and their declaration that the third coming of Christ will come through Pagans.

Re: Why Jesus? (Or, why not)

Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2021 3:53 pm
by Seferoth
For me Jesus is the ideal human. I can see how nearly every human can find something admirable about Jesus. His compassion, his devoutness, his way of speaking, his love for fellow men, his divinity(so to speak), his teachings, his life lessons, etc. It's hard to find any faults in Jesus and i see him as something of a mirror, you can always compare yourself against Christ and see how you are doing in your personal life. Note that i mean Christ alone, not Christianity in any of its forms. Jesus can be great inspiration and positive influence for everyone, including Satanists and other occults.

Re: Why Jesus? (Or, why not)

Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2021 12:09 pm
by Nir666
I think jesus wasn't very smart.
I'm considered jewish by the way.

His philosophy of loving your enemies just doesn't work in the real world.
If you let them they'll take advantage of you.
Such is the way of the world we all live in.

what do you think about my opinion?
🤔

Re: Why Jesus? (Or, why not)

Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2021 1:04 pm
by Soror O
I agree, hate has its purpose in human existense. Hate is a emotion which we human usually feel when our boundaries have been violated. Like all emotions it exists in its own right, and it has a vital role in preserving our integrity and carrying vital information.

Jesus himself, according to the legend, felt rage/strong frustration/hate on occasions. Naturally, in their pure essence, emotions are a flowing stream of energies. They come and they pass. But to hold on to any emotion is a sign of a blockage in our being. Holding on to hate, we generate more hate and witness more hate in the world and in ourselves. In the end hate is a fire that consumes ourselves. In my experience, accumulated hate is the opposite of real empowerment.

Jesus incouraged us to love our enemies. Love is not an emotion, opposite to hate. Rather it is a consciousness which sees all as one. Choosing love doesn't mean that a person cannot have emotions of hate anymore. Rather is a perspective where you see your emotions as they are, depicting just one, peculiar layer of human reality.

I've been stuck in hate myself. Setting boundaries have been helpful.

Re: Why Jesus? (Or, why not)

Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2021 3:27 pm
by Gangleri
Nir666 wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 12:09 pm His philosophy of loving your enemies just doesn't work in the real world.
If you let them they'll take advantage of you.
Such is the way of the world we all live in.

what do you think about my opinion?
First of all, to a certain extent, I think that the principle of loving your enemies works very well as a magical rule; as a certain kind of protective measure. Secondly, I think it wasn't the purpose of Jesus to make a philosophy that would necessarily "work in a real world" (I guess you mean with this the profane world of hard cold facts?) but to give principles for spiritual life, which has basically always been in opposition with the "real world" in every teacher and guide that humanity has had. Thirdly, there is also the question of nobility and superiority that might especially be important for satanists or LHP people who usually pride in their supposed superiority; if one wishes to be a noble and ethically superior human being, one is almost obliged to love one's enemies, since one is working for a higher goal and aims to become more than man; it becomes "as a law upon oneself" in some point. Fourthly, one can easily ask the question that how well has hate done (in building the world).

I believe that the exhortation of loving your enemies is not about letting one's enemies deceive and take advantage of oneself - setting clear boundaries is also sometimes inevitable - nor is it about going sentimentally hugging your mortal enemies, nor is it something that stops one from being critical towards your enemies and their actions. It is about seeing the world from the point of view of unity and also personally I think seeing the potential for good even in those who might oppose you. It is also about letting go / detachment, since hate binds one to one's enemies or opponents. Sometimes love is a lion's roar.