Reading Circle (Blavatsky: The Secret Doctrine)

Discussion on literature other than by the Star of Azazel.
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Polyhymnia
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Re: Reading Circle (Blavatsky: The Secret Doctrine)

Postby Polyhymnia » Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:13 am

Phew, that was an intense last few hours of reading through material. I don't really have anything to add to the discussion other than everything you guys have contributed is slowly starting to make more sense to me. I think this is just a massive undertaking where the natural progression will be seeing things slowly start to come together after much reading, absorbing, and rereading. If you see me repeating things you've already written, or asking questions to points you've already made (I'm seeing now I've done this a couple of times already) it's not because I'm not reading what you're writing. It's because at the time I'm writing I'm not currently understanding. I think at this point for me it's all making sense enough to progress onto Stanza I of Cosmogenesis. Happy to discuss more of the proem though should anyone want to! I feel like I could read it a thousand times and something new would present itself to me.
"Limited love asks for possession of the beloved, but the unlimited asks only for itself." -Kahlil Gibran
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Re: Reading Circle (Blavatsky: The Secret Doctrine)

Postby Smaragd » Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:27 pm

Polyhymnia wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:13 am
Phew, that was an intense last few hours of reading through material. I don't really have anything to add to the discussion other than everything you guys have contributed is slowly starting to make more sense to me. I think this is just a massive undertaking where the natural progression will be seeing things slowly start to come together after much reading, absorbing, and rereading. If you see me repeating things you've already written, or asking questions to points you've already made (I'm seeing now I've done this a couple of times already) it's not because I'm not reading what you're writing. It's because at the time I'm writing I'm not currently understanding.
Hear hear! It's ever continuing process to understand some teachings from different perspectives and how they can be observed from different layers of reality. I'm additionally a sucker for stating and repeating the obvious to get surrounded by the things we're trying to learn more of.
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Re: Reading Circle (Blavatsky: The Secret Doctrine)

Postby Polyhymnia » Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:08 pm

Smaragd wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:27 pm
Hear hear! It's ever continuing process to understand some teachings from different perspectives and how they can be observed from different layers of reality. I'm additionally a sucker for stating and repeating the obvious to get surrounded by the things we're trying to learn more of.
This warms my heart that I'm not alone in this method!
"Limited love asks for possession of the beloved, but the unlimited asks only for itself." -Kahlil Gibran
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Re: Reading Circle (Blavatsky: The Secret Doctrine)

Postby Cerastes » Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:39 pm

Okay, let's start with the stanzas.

The secret doctrine Stanza 1.1 wrote:THE ETERNAL PARENT WRAPPED IN HER EVER INVISIBLE ROBES HAD SLUMBERED ONCE AGAIN FOR SEVEN ETERNITIES.


The term “eternity” seems to be subject to a temporally limited, periodical frame and thus deviates from the scientific definition. The "eternal parent", translated as "Allmutter" (=Mother of all) in the German version, is discribes as the reason for everything. The ever invisible robes are the spiritual essence of matter, creating the invisible attributes in it.

This very good comment kept popping up in my mind while reading the stanza:
Nefastos wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 10:59 am
Wisdom, Sophia, who is the female counterpart of creating Logos in esoteric systems, and who gives reason (in the word's two meanings) for creation and makes it harmonical and stable, is in microcosm the principle of buddhi: the "sense to perceive unity". This connectedness of manas to buddhi, or the philosophical mind's turning to eternal mind, is the first thing in the practical esoteric cosmology. It is the red thread going through from the first written sources, from Plato to Neoplatonic and Gnostic, Tantric & Qabbalistic esotericism.

I see buddhi as a sphere, a membrane that encloses the body of organs into one whole. Spiritually, it is the "aura" which holds in itself our unique but still connected individuality; in the world of thought, it is our ideology, which has its center point and its periphery, even though it remains connected to all the other ideas in one way or the other – and so on. In our planetary system it might likened to the "sky" or "heaven" of the stratosphere which both creates the livable atmosphere for the planet and yet is something higher and more free in itself.
As I understand it, the "eternal parent" makes the buddhi part (female) in microcosm as shown in the Hieroglyphic Key.

The secret doctrine, Stanza 1.2 wrote:TIME WAS NOT, FOR IT LAY ASLEEP IN THE INFINITE BOSOM OF DURATION

Time is said to be an illusion, emergent - and therfore dependent- on the consciousness, so it does not exist yet. So basically, time is bound to matter or to the change in matter. This, however, raises the question how the "eternal parents" have slumbered seven eternities before the time even existed, because periods don't work without the time dimension. :?
“Granny Weatherwax was not lost. She wasn't the kind of person who ever became lost. It was just that, at the moment, while she knew exactly where SHE was, she didn't know the position of anywhere else.”
(Terry Pratchett, Wyrd Sisters)
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Re: Reading Circle (Blavatsky: The Secret Doctrine)

Postby Polyhymnia » Fri Jun 07, 2019 7:38 am

Cerastes wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:39 pm

The secret doctrine Stanza 1.1 wrote:THE ETERNAL PARENT WRAPPED IN HER EVER INVISIBLE ROBES HAD SLUMBERED ONCE AGAIN FOR SEVEN ETERNITIES.


The term “eternity” seems to be subject to a temporally limited, periodical frame and thus deviates from the scientific definition. The "eternal parent", translated as "Allmutter" (=Mother of all) in the German version, is discribes as the reason for everything. The ever invisible robes are the spiritual essence of matter, creating the invisible attributes in it.

This very good comment kept popping up in my mind while reading the stanza:
Nefastos wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 10:59 am
Wisdom, Sophia, who is the female counterpart of creating Logos in esoteric systems, and who gives reason (in the word's two meanings) for creation and makes it harmonical and stable, is in microcosm the principle of buddhi: the "sense to perceive unity". This connectedness of manas to buddhi, or the philosophical mind's turning to eternal mind, is the first thing in the practical esoteric cosmology. It is the red thread going through from the first written sources, from Plato to Neoplatonic and Gnostic, Tantric & Qabbalistic esotericism.

I see buddhi as a sphere, a membrane that encloses the body of organs into one whole. Spiritually, it is the "aura" which holds in itself our unique but still connected individuality; in the world of thought, it is our ideology, which has its center point and its periphery, even though it remains connected to all the other ideas in one way or the other – and so on. In our planetary system it might likened to the "sky" or "heaven" of the stratosphere which both creates the livable atmosphere for the planet and yet is something higher and more free in itself.
As I understand it, the "eternal parent" makes the buddhi part (female) in microcosm as shown in the Hieroglyphic Key.
Just to add onto your thoughts, these are the notes contained in my book:

"The 'Parent Space' is the eternal, ever present cause of all- the incomprehensible DEITY, whose 'invisible robes' are the mystic root of al matter and of the Universe. By the Seven 'Eternities', aeons or periods are meant."

Pretty much echoes what you wrote above, Sor Cerastes. Or at least what I took away.
Cerastes wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:39 pm

The secret doctrine, Stanza 1.2 wrote:TIME WAS NOT, FOR IT LAY ASLEEP IN THE INFINITE BOSOM OF DURATION

Time is said to be an illusion, emergent - and therfore dependent- on the consciousness, so it does not exist yet. So basically, time is bound to matter or to the change in matter. This, however, raises the question how the "eternal parents" have slumbered seven eternities before the time even existed, because periods don't work without the time dimension. :?
That's a very good question. Again these are the notes directly from my version of the book:

"Time is only an illusion produced by the succession of our states of consciousness as we travel through eternal duration, and it does not exist where no consciousness exists in which the illusion can be produced; but 'lies asleep'. Nothing on earth has real duration, for nothing remains without change- or the same- for the billionth part of a second; and the sensation we have of the actuality of the division of 'time' known as the present, comes from the blurring of that momentary glimpse, or succession of glimpses, of things that our senses give us, as those things pass from the region of ideals which we call the future, to the region of memories that we name the past. The real person or thing does not consist solely of what is seen at any particular moment, but is composed of the sum of all its various and changing conditions from its appearance in the material form to its disappearance from the earth."

I don't think this offers a very clear explanation to your question, or at least one my brain can currently see. Seven aeons is a very specific number for a concept that is an illusion.
"Limited love asks for possession of the beloved, but the unlimited asks only for itself." -Kahlil Gibran
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Re: Reading Circle (Blavatsky: The Secret Doctrine)

Postby Cerastes » Fri Jun 07, 2019 9:19 am

Polyhymnia wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 7:38 am
I don't think this offers a very clear explanation to your question, or at least one my brain can currently see. Seven aeons is a very specific number for a concept that is an illusion.
The problem is, that the said illusion did not exist yet since it is produced by our consciousness and the perception of past, present and future. So as I understand the secret doctrine, time is bound to matter or the change in matter that is perceived by consciousness.
No matter = no time
No time = no aeons

Admittedly I have the tendency to read occult literature as it was a technical manual for an electronic device. :) But I sense that there is a mistake in my thinking or I'm missing out something.
“Granny Weatherwax was not lost. She wasn't the kind of person who ever became lost. It was just that, at the moment, while she knew exactly where SHE was, she didn't know the position of anywhere else.”
(Terry Pratchett, Wyrd Sisters)
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Re: Reading Circle (Blavatsky: The Secret Doctrine)

Postby Nefastos » Sun Jun 09, 2019 2:53 pm

Cerastes wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 9:19 am
The problem is, that the said illusion did not exist yet since it is produced by our consciousness and the perception of past, present and future. So as I understand the secret doctrine, time is bound to matter or the change in matter that is perceived by consciousness.
No matter = no time
No time = no aeons


If we want to understand the concepts of "para-" universe of secret doctrine (and The Secret Doctrine), we must shake our ontological conceptual thinking not just once, but in several ways.

Whichever our world view or idea of cosmogenesis is (theistic, deistic, atheistic, or purely scientific), this question at hand rises at the point where manual-like thinking can no longer be applied. "What was before time" is a koan in itself, and the metaphysical answers – when they are given, like here – are necessarily partly poetic in their language.

Considering Aeons is a good starting point of contemplation, though, for these Aeons are no only time pieces or cycles in time, but paratemporal ideas of sequences, i.e. divinities in ontological sequence. I just came up in the following in reading Dzielska's Hypatia:

Dzielska wrote:The powers of Destiny, the planetary spheres [which correspond to manvantaric cycles], are sustained by the lord of the immutable laws of the universe, the god of eternal time – Aion.


So, before "time" as we see it, in Platonic as well as Eastern hermeticism there is the idea of time, which is the asbtract concept of defined sequences: the unwinded clock machinery of cosmos and anti-cosmos (mahamanvantaric and manapralaya), which is like a deep meditation of Ein Sof the absolute God of creation and uncreation both.

If this sounds impossible to realize wholly, it is because it is impossible to realize wholly, like all concepts of ideas behind and beyond cosmogenetic action are. But the poetic "finger pointing to the moon" is there.

How important it is to think about the unthinkable at all is of course something that can be argued either way. Personally I see it as one of the most important things there are in the practice of esotericism; to bend the bars of our mind's prison, to escape the formal mind by intellectual meditation that does not accept its borders as absolute. Only be bending kâma-manas to its utmost and beyond, the light of buddhi-manas starts to shine through in a new way. To think oneself through the egg-shell of temporal & material being.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Re: Reading Circle (Blavatsky: The Secret Doctrine)

Postby Polyhymnia » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:36 pm

Nefastos wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 2:53 pm
If this sounds impossible to realize wholly, it is because it is impossible to realize wholly, like all concepts of ideas behind and beyond cosmogenetic action are. But the poetic "finger pointing to the moon" is there.

How important it is to think about the unthinkable at all is of course something that can be argued either way. Personally I see it as one of the most important things there are in the practice of esotericism; to bend the bars of our mind's prison, to escape the formal mind by intellectual meditation that does not accept its borders as absolute. Only be bending kâma-manas to its utmost and beyond, the light of buddhi-manas starts to shine through in a new way. To think oneself through the egg-shell of temporal & material being.[/color]
It's interesting to me that this is presenting itself to be such a challenge for myself personally. I typically think of myself as someone who is very open minded, who is willing to bend those bars, as I think most esotericists are, but for whatever reason I'm struggling with the logistics of this whole thing. My brain is screaming LOGIC, LOGIC, LOGIC, and I imagine it's because I'm feeling a little lost and its just trying to grasp at whatever makes it feel more comfortable. I think being uncomfortable in this way is step one to dissolving whatever attachment I have to this material logic (kama-manas?) and I imagine and hope that deconstructing my thought patterns will come more easily with practice and a little time.
"Limited love asks for possession of the beloved, but the unlimited asks only for itself." -Kahlil Gibran
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Re: Reading Circle (Blavatsky: The Secret Doctrine)

Postby Polyhymnia » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:37 pm

TIME. Hahahaha. Ah. Time. My new nemesis. :lol: Let me get my head around your existence.
"Limited love asks for possession of the beloved, but the unlimited asks only for itself." -Kahlil Gibran
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Re: Reading Circle (Blavatsky: The Secret Doctrine)

Postby Cerastes » Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:11 pm

Polyhymnia wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:36 pm
It's interesting to me that this is presenting itself to be such a challenge for myself personally. I typically think of myself as someone who is very open minded, who is willing to bend those bars, as I think most esotericists are, but for whatever reason I'm struggling with the logistics of this whole thing. My brain is screaming LOGIC, LOGIC, LOGIC, and I imagine it's because I'm feeling a little lost and its just trying to grasp at whatever makes it feel more comfortable. I think being uncomfortable in this way is step one to dissolving whatever attachment I have to this material logic (kama-manas?) and I imagine and hope that deconstructing my thought patterns will come more easily with practice and a little time.
This is very difficult for me too, since I'm used to think in causalities. Most likely, this is why I didn't like Blavatsky in the first place. To understand a book, the reader must ideally get into the same state of mind as the author. Thus, the secret doctrine is a very good occult training.

Last night I thought about time as an abstract concept of time, which is really fascinating. You can build so many bridges and make so many associations and yet it is not possible to write something tangible for me. Actually, I wanted to read on in the book, but since it was a hard day, I fell asleep and had a very wired dream of a spiral-shaped tree trunk whose roots hang in the air. It had no leaves, it was just the trunk with roots, surrounded with different colored spots.
This is probably not helpful at all, but I wanted to leave it here anyway because it inspired me somehow. I will probably draw it down.
“Granny Weatherwax was not lost. She wasn't the kind of person who ever became lost. It was just that, at the moment, while she knew exactly where SHE was, she didn't know the position of anywhere else.”
(Terry Pratchett, Wyrd Sisters)

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