The Mahatma Letters to A.P. Sinnett (Reading Group)

Discussion on literature other than by the Star of Azazel.
User avatar
Nefastos
Frater
Posts: 3479
Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 10:05 am
Location: Helsinki

Re: The Mahatma Letters to A.P. Sinnett (Reading Group)

Postby Nefastos » Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:12 pm

Smaragd wrote:I wonder how the Akasic libraries and sentences coming from ”within” or ”without” work. Tapping in to the subconscious flows while writing might be thought as coming from within but doesn’t seem to be clearly separated from the learned, not for me atleast. Maybe the clearer separation between the two ”personas” — the higher and the lower self — make difference here.


Once more we can turn to Jung, even though we're dealing with the major point of his system that he left a bit hazy: the connection of the subjective & the objective subconscious. The "Akasic library" is the objective or shared subconscious, more or less blocked from the view of an individual mind by his egotistic focus. When this focus disintegrates or shifts, or widens when buddhi-manas instead of kâma-manas is taken as its central point, the "library" opens behind the blocking personal bookcases, under which only a random creeper or two have previously been able to crawl through.

Buddhi-manas transcends time & personality, even though it still works with likenesses (affinities), and thus a "mahatma" (a master adept) juggles with equal ease with concepts & sentences which rise outside of his own waking mind brain. He uses these as atavisms, in the same way as any profane can use his own vegetative bodily functions: from our shared, racial (i.e. humankind's) experience, so to say. I don't have to think how I make my fingers move on the keyboard; they move with instinct, and with instinct they find the correct keys to form recognizable (if not altogether correct...) English words.

One could even say that it is one of the obstacles for a would be adept to learn to use his kâma-manasic mind as a shared object, linking it with the other minds. This linking cannot be chaotic, but at the same time it cannot be done if the struggle for control is too great. Thus our buddhic awakening becomes like an extremely delicate form of dance, where our âtma learns control and not-control at the same time. KH used the word "mahatma" here because of this. Âtma connecting with its buddhic aura to the shared manasic world makes that âtma or Self "great" (maha-). It is no longer a separate individual, but a Brother: an activated part of the universal brotherhood, the shared mind; a Manasic being instead of a kâma-manasic automaton it previously was.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
User avatar
Smaragd
Frater
Posts: 477
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:27 am

Re: The Mahatma Letters to A.P. Sinnett (Reading Group)

Postby Smaragd » Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:09 pm

Thank you fra Nefastos for once again clearing the picture in such beautiful way. It is nice to hear about the simple (from the perspective of the higher self) logistics of the Hieroglyphic Key, when still struggling so much from the lower to the higher. Sort of wrong way if one is working towards esoterism. Even though one might be ready in his heart to make the necessary leap of faith to fully embrace the esoteric ideas, it seems often necessary to also live them through so to speak. Actualize the ideas as they open up to oneself in the living world. One might see it as connecting the every day phenomena to inner narrative, both of which happen in a spotaneous way. Subjects and objects meeting at the crossroads.
Yinlong
Frater
Posts: 230
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2016 6:12 pm

Re: The Mahatma Letters to A.P. Sinnett (Reading Group)

Postby Yinlong » Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:07 am

Letter no 56 is quite short one.

There is marking on top of the letter (on the linked web page) that the letter is (presumably) linked to the waistcoat incident (some letters were presumably stolen / read) but that seems to be discussed more in the next letter in sequence. So, I'll wait until the next letter to learn more.

The first part of this letter is mostly about warnings for Sinnett against / not in favor of Hume. Also, certain Mr. Fern is mentioned, who was working most probably as some sort of secretary for Hume. He was taken as a prospect to the T. Society, since M was interested in him, but failed to prove his worth or something else occurred.

Then, in the middle part Dayānand Sarasvatī is mentioned. His religious doctrines are summarized in T wiki as: "Dayananda advocated the doctrine of karma and skepticism in dogma, and emphasized the ideals of brahmacharya (celibacy) and devotion to God." At the time of writing, D.S. has just recently parted ways with T. Society. There seems to be some debate about who created what (kind of like musicians / ex band members blaming each other for stealing ideas) and then it is hinted that some occult powers (or just bribing/threatening etc.) were used to make D.S. to forget certain things: "and if the issue has been favourable it is because D.S. had a short memory and was made to forget all about the documents he had issued." At least this is what it seems to me. Well, don't mess up with Mahatmas and T. Society, I'd say. ;)

If one goes through the hyper linked text here, T wiki version there are few interesting historical figures mentioned.
Quaerendo Invenietis - Na dìomhcuimhnich a-chaoidh - Feuer frei!
User avatar
Nefastos
Frater
Posts: 3479
Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 10:05 am
Location: Helsinki

Re: The Mahatma Letters to A.P. Sinnett (Reading Group)

Postby Nefastos » Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:15 pm

Letter nr. 57 was received January 6th 1883, that is, quite exactly 135 years ago. It states that while in the recent past four European individuals were tested for being in contact with the brotherhood (and only one of them, Sinnett himself, passed), "Societies instead of individuals" will be tested in that year, and the "result will depend on their collective work".

Once again, much of the letter explains the sins of Mr. A.O. Hume, and why the mahatmas are so against him, even though Sinnett seems to have had hard time accepting this attitude against someone he seems to have respected a great deal because of his intellectual capacity and merits as a "gentleman".

KH wrote:I hope this will not be imputed to me as a mark of "ungentlemanly instincts" by you. As to every other man, since, now-a-days, a man universally recognized as a "gentleman" is often a low wretch, and gentleman-like externals often hide the soul of a villain — he is welcome to regard me in any light he pleases.
KH wrote:We have no gentlemen — now at all events, that would come up to the Simla standard — in Tibet, though many honest and truthful men.


This concept of an English gentleman is often referred in the letters, also in this one. Koot Hoomi explains how the Tibetan masters do not uphold the similar facade of seeming virtues, but instead look into an inner man. This is also the context of KH repeatingly using the phrase of "using the enemy's weapons", meaning that the both kinds of adepts work in covert way and not openly. So important was this ideal of a gentleman that KH says he couldn't have even told to Sinnett what Hume had did, since it was so much against of his idea of Hume being a respectful gentleman.

This kind of thinking and weighing values in stereotypes are always culturally present; they have changed but are still present as much as in the 19th century: but usually contemporary people cannot see how they are affected, just because they (us) are. Occultism, on the other hand, does not care about such constructs of fashion.

Also Anna Kingsford, the author of the Perfect Way, is once again mentioned, as –

KH wrote:the highly estimable authoress, who, albeit a fifth rounder, is not exempt from quite a considerable dose of vanity and despotism, hence — bigotry.


This "fifth rounder" means, in theosophical terminology, that she was spiritually much more developed than her – or our – contemporary people, the humankind in its (our) "fourth cycle". (Which, confusingly enough, must not be confused with the altogether different root races, since our present "race" is already the fifth, whereas the fourth race was the lost human civilization of "Atlantis", and our fifth rootrace is even slowly developing into its sixth subrace in an American continent...)

The different lodges of the brotherhood also come into picture, since Kingsford's master belonged to a different order, seemingly not a part of the Tibetan branch. Both of these adeptual lodges have the common wishes concerning the ethical side (emphasis mine):

KH wrote:[should you accept some misconceptions based on such bigotry] you will have obstructed the cause of free and general independent enquiry which her "Initiators" as well as we would wish promoted.


Reading Kingsford's book nowadays certainly gives a feeling that extremely similar if not indeed the one and the same philosophy has been behind her inspired books which at the same time gave birth to theosophical literature.

Onwards in our gallery of important characters. Next some interesting tidbits of information is given about –

KH wrote:that, sweet, handsome, spiritual and truth-aspiring boy — Fern. We were daily dictated laws, and as daily taken to task for being unable to realize our own interests. And it will be no news though it may disgust and shock you, to learn that the two [Hume & Fern] were brought into the closest relationship in order to bring out their mutual virtues and defects — each to shine in his own true light. Such are the laws of Eastern probation. Fern was a most remarkable psychic subject, naturally — very spiritually inclined, but corrupted by Jesuit masters, and with his sixth and seventh Principles completely dormant and paralysed within him.


That is, buddhic & âtmic. Koot Hoomi implies that the teaching of the ends justifying the means, that usual "we cannot question God" (while the God is already actually well "questioned" i.e. defined by the group's own theology/cosmology), paralyses one's highest intuitive human principles.

But, back to A.O. Hume. He has been caught lying in several different ways. One of his tricks had been at the same time putting on a friendly face to the theosophists & the "Mahatmas", while on the other hand writing serious accusations against them. While this is sad in itself, in our times it is hilarious to see how Hume's slanders might actually work as an advertisement for the theosophy in our later occult milieu so fascinated by atheism & black magic:

KH wrote:Eight days earlier (22nd November,) he [Hume] had written to P. Sreenevas Row, Judge S.C.C. at Madras, — "I find the Brotherhood a set of wicked selfish men, caring as a body for nothing but their own spiritual development (mind, in this respect K.H. is an exception but he is I believe the only one) and their system one of deception and tainted largely with sorcery (!) in that they employ spooks, i.e. elementals to perform their phenomena. As to deception, once a man has become a chela [chosen pupil] and bound himself by the vows they exact, you cannot believe a word he says; x x x he will lie systematically; as for sorcery, the fact is that until the time of Sonkapa x x x they were a set of unmitigated, vile sorcerers x x x Every chela is a slave — a slave of the most abject description — a slave in thought, as well as in word and deed x x x : our Society x x is an edifice noble in outside show — but built not on the rock of ages, but on the shifting sands of atheism, a whited sepulchre all bright x x x inside full of deceit and the dead bones of a pernicious, jesuitical system. x x x You are at liberty to make what use you please of this letter inside the Society," etc.


Why, should we put on such an advertisement for our "Theosophically Satanic" webpage & add some membership fees, the brotherhood's financial challenges would in a month's time change into soaring success!

One final thing, some details about developing clairvoyantic ability. Underlining mine.

KH wrote:How [has a specific letter been read] then? Of course, either by reading its physical substance with his natural eyes, or, its astral essence by transcendental power. If the latter, then by what brief forcing system was the psychic power of this "Yogi," who, in July last, was "not on a level spiritually" with yourself, or even with Fern, suddenly shot out into such full flower and fruitage, whereas it takes even us, trained "sorcerers" ten or fifteen years to acquire it?


And, speaking of occult phenomena, about the master–disciple union of thoughts (underlining mine):

KH wrote:These queries, arising at M\'s [Morya's] will in [his student] Olcott's mind he flatly put the question to Mr. Hume. As M\'s chela revering him, of course, as a Father as well as Teacher he very properly put to this Censor Elegantiarum the direct question [...]
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
obnoxion
Sodalis
Posts: 1829
Joined: Tue May 25, 2010 7:59 pm

Re: The Mahatma Letters to A.P. Sinnett (Reading Group)

Postby obnoxion » Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:57 pm

The letter numbet 58 is dated March 1883, it was received in Madras. KH has some qualms on continuing the general philosophical discussion, that was the original aim of the relationship between KH and APS. Now that they have formed and occult teacher/student relationship, there have been some misunderstandings.

But as a teacher,it seem KH is very understanding of APS. In Joy Mills' "Reflections on an Ageless Wisdom", the letters 58, 59 and 60 are considered as one cluster. Mills sheds light on the background of the letter 58. HPB had been for some time urging Subba Row (sometimes spelled as "Rao") to teach occultism to APS. Maser M - The Guru of both Blavatsky and Rao - had also sided with HPB on this. But Rao had been reluctant. In letter 46. M wrote to Sinnett:

"You must have patience with Subba Row. Give him time. He is now at his tapas and will not be disturbed. I will tell jim not to neglect you but je is very jealous and regards teaching an Englishman as a sacrilege."

Tapas, I take it, means in this case some form of disciplined practice of ascetic spirituality. Rao would eventualy abide, considering he is ordered to do so by his guru M. But to teach APS, Rao would demand of him (among other things), some changes in life style. Over all, Rao seems very much detached to APS.

On the contrary, KH is very undestanding of APS's personality and his individual circumstances. When APS once offered to give up "meat and drink", KH refused it.

KH is really beginning to look like a good example of a real guru. According to Mills, M was trying to get SR to comply to Sinnets original wish and teach him how to produce some occult phenomenon, but KH was against this "wild project", and stressed to Sinnet that mere interest in parapsycology is not and cannot be called occultism, which demands "all or nothing".

From the 58th letter we get the impression that the DK or Djual Khool (then a student of KH, later an adept who worked with Alice Bailey) made (and at least partially failed in) an attempt to produce occult phenomena in APS. Apparently APS had an out of body experience, but did not achieve "opening of the inner vision". KH states that he had no part in this experiment.

KH seems to be a tantric guru in the lofty sense of the word. In this he is a worthy follower of Tsongkhapa, who after all was a master Tantrika, considered to have been a mahasiddha by many. As a teacher KH seems to be allowing of householders as students, and he seems very sensitive and empathic to the personal situation of APS. This makes on contrast to the strict attitudes and puritanical priorities of Subba Row
One day of Brahma has 14 Indras; his life has 54 000 Indras. One day of Vishnu is the lifetime of Brahma. The lifetime of Vishnu is one day of Shiva.
User avatar
RaktaZoci
Posts: 1429
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:32 pm
Location: Salo

Re: The Mahatma Letters to A.P. Sinnett (Reading Group)

Postby RaktaZoci » Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:26 pm

Hello All. I will present letter no. 59, which is a slightly longer one. It consists of first half, which deals with a bit more on the historical side of things and the problems within the TS (as many of these letters do). The second half, however, gets a little bit more abstract and concerns the significance of the double triangle, i.e. the hexagram, and its meaning to the aspirant.

The first part, to me personally, is quite uninteresting. I will point out a few quotes, however, which I see relevant to the present discussion we've been having in our "society".
KH wrote:"The culture of Society more often inclines to lawn-tennis philosophy than to that of the banned "adepts," whose wider game has worlds for balls, and etheric space for its shaven lawn...this second one is a dish of cold philosophy, and in your "large section of London Society" you will scarcely find enough of the wine of sympathy to wash it down...the theosophist's duty is like that of the husbandman; to turn his furrows and sow his grains as best he can: the issue is with nature, and she, the slave of Law."
These passages I find rather witty as they apply to many things in our present day lives, especially to happenings which include people en masse.

After this KH talks of an important matter of both responsibility and self-knowledge in pursuit of spiritual development. He is referring to a person (?) who did not heed to these rules and became:
KH wrote:"..an animated poison bag, full of mental, moral, and physical corruption."
He (KH) adds, though:
KH wrote:"I have only given you a glimpse into the hell of this lost soul, to show you what disaster may come upon the "lay-chela" who snatches at forbidden power before his moral nature is developed to the point of fitness for its exercise."
I think this passage holds an important lesson, or advice, for us all.

Then follows some more critique to Western science. KH presents this in a simple manner, but I believe the truth behind these sentences is a lot more complex. I think I know what this is about, but maybe Nefastos can explain this in a more "sensible" way? What do these sentences mean, exactly? How can buddhi become galvanized by manas? Is this something that happens naturally, or is it merely a stage consciously taken on the Path?
KH wrote:"He may be a Bacon or an Aristotle in knowledge, and still not even make his current felt a feather's weight by us, if his power is confined to the manas. The supreme energy resides in the Buddhi; latent — when wedded to Atman alone, active and irresistible when galvanized by the essence of "manas" and when none of the dross of the latter commingles with that pure essence to weigh it down by its finite nature. Manas pure and simple is of a lower degree, and of the earth earthly: and so your greatest men count but as nonentities in the arena where greatness is measured by the standard of spiritual development."
There is some talk of the importance of the Will (connected to buddhi?) in one's work. I thought Will was connected more to Atma of the principles, rather than to buddhi (as Fosforos states)?
KH wrote:"..the measure of its actual help to the psychopathist will be in ratio with the degree of will-power he excites in himself, and the degree of psychic purity in his motive. The talisman and his Buddhi are in sympathy."
After this we get to the philosophical, of more metaphysical, part of the letter. KH discusses the meaning of the name Avalokitesvara(Wiki ) and how this name has been misinterpreted by such persons as Thomas Rhys Davids and Arthur Lillie. He states that their interpretation of the name as "the Lord who looks down from on high" is erreneous. He continues:
KH wrote:"Avalokita Isvar literally interpreted means "the Lord that is seen...It is, when correctly interpreted, in one sense "the divine Self perceived or seen by Self," the Atman or seventh principle ridded of its mayavic distinction from its universal Source — which becomes the object of perception for, and by the individuality centred in Buddhi, the sixth principle, — something that happens only in the highest state of Samadhi."
And
(it is)
KH wrote:"..but the Omnipresent Universal Spirit in the temple of nature — in one case; and the seventh Principle — the Atman in the temple — man — in the other."
As a short comment, having just re-watched the matrix movies, this made me think a lot! =D

This metaphysical narrative continues as:
KH wrote:""Speech or Vach was regarded as the Son or the manifestation of the Eternal Self, and was adored under the name of Avalokitesvara, the manifested god." This shows as clearly as can be — that Avalokitesvara is both the unmanifested Father and the manifested Son, the latter proceeding from, and identical with, the other; — namely, the Parabrahm and Jivatman, the Universal and the individualized seventh Principle, — the Passive and the Active, the latter the Word, Logos, the Verb."
This could be seen as a sort of prologue to the hexagram explanation, which is further due. Modestly it is stated that:
KH wrote:"The double triangle..a geometrical synthesis of the whole occult doctrine...They contain the "squaring of the circle," the "philosophical stone," the great problems of Life and Death, and — the Mystery of Evil."
Further:
KH wrote:"The interlaced triangles — the upper pointing one — is Wisdom concealed, and the downward pointing one — Wisdom revealed (in the phenomenal world). The circle indicates the bounding, circumscribing quality of the All, the universal Principle which, from any given point expands so as to embrace all things, while embodying the potentiality of every action in the Cosmos."
I remind you that this is but my personal logic and memory speaking, but isn't this:
KH wrote:"Parabrahm or "Adi-Buddha" while acting through that germ point outwardly as an active force, reacts from the circumference inwardly as the Supreme but latent Potency."
describing the same action as Nefastos is describing in his text Fohat with this image:
ympyra.jpg
???

The text continues a bit with historical connotations, but I'll leave my analysis here. I think it will suffice. The thought process that took me this far is almost surpassing my capacity to handle it.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
die Eule der Minerva beginnt erst mit der einbrechenden Dämmerung ihren Flug.
-Hegel
User avatar
Nefastos
Frater
Posts: 3479
Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 10:05 am
Location: Helsinki

Re: The Mahatma Letters to A.P. Sinnett (Reading Group)

Postby Nefastos » Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:49 pm

RaktaZoci wrote:I think I know what this is about, but maybe Nefastos can explain this in a more "sensible" way? What do these sentences mean, exactly?
KH wrote:"He may be a Bacon or an Aristotle in knowledge, and still not even make his current felt a feather's weight by us, if his power is confined to the manas. The supreme energy resides in the Buddhi; latent — when wedded to Atman alone, active and irresistible when galvanized by the essence of "manas" and when none of the dross of the latter commingles with that pure essence to weigh it down by its finite nature. Manas pure and simple is of a lower degree, and of the earth earthly: and so your greatest men count but as nonentities in the arena where greatness is measured by the standard of spiritual development."


In our Luciferian emphasis on theosophical occultism, the main schema is the hieroglyphical key, which makes manas, the Lucifer-principle, empasisedly one of the three highest principle. And so it is, even objectively, if we can use such a word here.

But still, manas has its touching point in earthly things: its very essence has been merged with the animal man, as we see from the name of its reflected principle kâma manas. The higher manas is factually present in kâma manas, in a way. This is the "fall" of Lucifer or the manasaputras (the "manas-born" of the "sons of manas"). (Regarding this we can take manas as the lowest line of the higher triangle, instead of being the left point of it. As such, it is the liminal line which connects the syzygi-monad of âtma-buddhi, let's say our inner God, to the liminal "crossroads" leading to the physical inverted triangle of our earthly personality.)

Thus, our Genius can be turned outwards in a onesided way. We can, like KH said, become intellectual and yet materialistic giants like Bacon & Aristotle, who have given tremendous impact for human culture without being spiritual persons. Such great abstract brains work in manas but not in buddhi: their manasic light shines through their physical brain (thus creating a strong kâma manas) but not through their inner vehicles, which remain dormant. Such persons never strike the match to burn in the night of spirit, which would make them visible for the people who dwell in the other world, and for whom our perceptible physical reality is just a valley of darkness.

RaktaZoci wrote:How can buddhi become galvanized by manas? Is this something that happens naturally, or is it merely a stage consciously taken on the Path?


In a way, both. It is not necessarily needed that the "objective" conditions, or rather, their correspondences in etheric part of the physical human being, must be brought about with a mechanical tool (of a certain meditation or such). Much more important, safe and usual means is to live, think, speak, act in a certain way in one's everyday life. Once again we come straight back to ethics & fundamental philosophy of living. What makes us, our occult process, tick? Is it our willingness to shine in front of the others, to have supranormal powers, and such? If so, then we are not climbing the stairs of ascension; we are not galvanizing our manas with buddhi, but our kâma with manas.

Wikipedia states about galvanization that:
In physics and chemistry, it is the induction of electrical current from a chemical reaction, typically between two chemicals with differing electronegativities.


These "differing electronegatives" are the occult polarities of 1) manas and 2) either buddhi or kâma. The first one is "positive", while the latter are "negative". But in the occult process of the inner rock's reversal (spoken about in Fosforos & elswhere), these polarities are swapped, and one's manas becomes "feminine" while either his buddhi or kâma takes on a more masculine role (see footnote 25 of the Voice of Silence, being HPB's second footnote under 42 in the translation made by me).

RaktaZoci wrote:There is some talk of the importance of the Will (connected to buddhi?) in one's work. I thought Will was connected more to Atma of the principles, rather than to buddhi (as Fosforos states)?


Answered above. As discussed elsewhere in this forum lately, Âtma-Buddhi naturally form a "monadic" unity, exactly in the form of the split world egg or the "IO/10" you just attached as a picture. This first created pure world is the first theophany and, as such, the state we seek to return. It is the uninterrupted union of Shiva-Shakti and the nirvanee's mind flashing like a lightning through all the planes at once.

RaktaZoci wrote:The thought process that took me this far is almost surpassing my capacity to handle it.


This is one of the most laudable forms of practical gnana yoga. Taking one's mind to its limits in metaphysical speculation of the otherworldly principles, partly grounding them to brain with geometrical thinking but heavily tinted with ethical (everyday and not coldly rational) approach, this is the way of approaching the spiritual realm of the masters, de facto.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
Yinlong
Frater
Posts: 230
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2016 6:12 pm

Re: The Mahatma Letters to A.P. Sinnett (Reading Group)

Postby Yinlong » Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:49 pm

Nefastos wrote:Wikipedia states about galvanization that:
In physics and chemistry, it is the induction of electrical current from a chemical reaction, typically between two chemicals with differing electronegativities.


These "differing electronegatives" are the occult polarities of 1) manas and 2) either buddhi or kâma. The first one is "positive", while the latter are "negative". But in the occult process of the inner rock's reversal (spoken about in Fosforos & elswhere), these polarities are swapped, and one's manas becomes "feminine" while either his buddhi or kâma takes on a more masculine role (see footnote 25 of the Voice of Silence, being HPB's second footnote under 42 in the translation made by me).

RaktaZoci wrote:There is some talk of the importance of the Will (connected to buddhi?) in one's work. I thought Will was connected more to Atma of the principles, rather than to buddhi (as Fosforos states)?
Just a warning sticker: Probably because it is so much discussed currently in news, academic world etc., the feminine aspects of things and the masculine aspects of things is a bit difficult topic now and probably for the next ten-twenty years or so (surely because of the "political use" of even the terminology around the topic - it's difficult to discuss without somebody raising eyebrows or even somebody just losing his/her temper etc.).

However, I've always paid attention to this "swapping" (this: "these polarities are swapped, and one's manas becomes "feminine" while either his buddhi or kâma takes on a more masculine role"). I hope this doesn't sound outlandish, but I've been theorizing every now and then the topic, since I have always found the above description (or similar themes in occult/religious/similar literature) "violently an oversimplification" (and yes, of course everything is an oversimplification when written or drawn to a book - but anyways, talking about degrees/aspects etc. here). So, my kind of "current conclusions", and also possible related outcomes are the following:
a.) Depending a bit the person, process and approach, but the (probably unknown or pressurized) "violence"/"roughness"/"temperament-involved" intention in certain processes may result this "swapping" to be more "polarized" than with more "fluid" process and problem solving.
b.) It might be that the fluidity comes later anyways. Also, this might be something particularly Finnish, since we call the Earth "the Father" sometimes unlike our more Indo-European cousins. Furthermore, our Finnish (my mother tongue) is pretty androgenic, there are often masculine and feminine deities of the sea, forest etc...
c.) Somehow it might be also related to one's inner born/inherited/etc. approaches to femininity/masculinity/androgyny (or neutrality) etc. Again, I guess the same as said above (is it Mother Earth or Father Earth or both aspects of the Earth plus possibly one more etc.). Also, since there are many metal fans here, they more-often-than-normally tend to have a bit broader or accepting view to these topics about somebody's masculinity, femininity etc.
d.) I'm just weird and my thinking is atypical, haha.

I hope you understood my thinking behind these ponderings, since I every now and then open the topic of solving certain stages, steps and processes differently: Mostly I criticize more violent (or mathematical) problem solving and vote for less violent (kind of more animistic and fluid) problem solving. Of course, I truly know that sometimes one doesn't have a choice or there are less choices...

Edit: Of course, it's just easier to stick to the Theosophical / Vedic / Yoga inspired terminology, I like them a lot too. One can consider this just as something extra / a sidenote if one is interested in these kind of topics on a more detailed or theoretical level. :D

Edit2: I also remember reading this when fairly young Ranma ½ In case point d.) is the most probable, I'll point my finger at this weird manga stuff. :D
Quaerendo Invenietis - Na dìomhcuimhnich a-chaoidh - Feuer frei!
User avatar
Nefastos
Frater
Posts: 3479
Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 10:05 am
Location: Helsinki

Re: The Mahatma Letters to A.P. Sinnett (Reading Group)

Postby Nefastos » Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:26 pm

A bit of an off-topic here, but let's do this. We must confront this warning sticker sooner or later, and this might be neutral enough ground to do that.
Yinlong wrote:Probably because it is so much discussed currently in news, academic world etc., the feminine aspects of things and the masculine aspects of things is a bit difficult topic now and probably for the next ten-twenty years or so (surely because of the "political use" of even the terminology around the topic - it's difficult to discuss without somebody raising eyebrows or even somebody just losing his/her temper etc.).


It is so. These are the things I meant by this discussion of the letter 57:

This kind of thinking and weighing values in stereotypes are always culturally present; they have changed but are still present as much as in the 19th century: but usually contemporary people cannot see how they are affected, just because they (us) are. Occultism, on the other hand, does not care about such constructs of fashion.


Concerning this --

Yinlong wrote:Depending a bit the person, process and approach, but the (probably unknown or pressurized) "violence"/"roughness"/"temperament-involved" intention in certain processes may result this "swapping" to be more "polarized" than with more "fluid" process and problem solving.


I think that we might be talking about two slightly different things? Concerning the outer man (personality, with all its subconscious part, temperament, energetics/humour of the body, &c.), we naturally experience & present things very differently. It is this outer man which is also concerned about cultural issues like being or not being a gentleman, being or not being manly/womanly/of the third gender/sexless/man-in-a-woman's-body or vice versa, and so on. These are personal, temporal things, which always can assume a millionfold plurality of possible applications. And as a rule of thumb, occultists often tend to break cultural norms, whatever they be at the time. Their (our) thinking & energetics just tend to be "weird & atypical", as you said, which is part of their fittingness to the process of liminal experience that the spiritual growth demands.

But, there are also things that are not dependent on culture, even though how these things are depicted, necessarily is, for language & its associations are a major part of any culture. Our present day policy of feeling easily insulted by gender symbolism is very bad for the occult practice though, for all the myths from all over the world have been compiled using precisely this kind of symbolism, which just now have been found to be offensive. In reality, there is no offense whatsoever, since every true occultist necessarily knows that there is always equal part of "male" and "female" (and the third, always being born from the union of that eternal duad) in every one of us – and in every part of everything, like in this talk about electronegatives. To assume that battery's positive and negative poles are thus somehow suggested to present the "better" and the "worse" part of it would be insane.

When speaking about how a principle becomes "feminine" means that it adopts the energetical function of a matrix. These polarities of the uterus & the seed, or the yoni & lingam, have nothing to do with human culture with its ephemeral fixations to this or that bodypart or the veiling of it, or the lack of it, or its sociological associations. Even at the point when the humankind has been evolved back into being a hermaphrodite in some millions of years, these very same polarities will still exist – side by side – in every one of us. There is nothing making one or other side better or worse, and absolutely no way of getting rid of one's inner shakti (anima or woman) or shiva (animus or man). Machismo & feminism can wrestle as long & hard as they want, becoming more & more alike in such a hate-embrace; but occultism remains uninterested one way or the other, for in its use the words always have had the deeper meaning than that which concerns the outer reproductive organs of the animal man. For example, the principles of manas & buddhi, to whom these matrix & seed symbolism were here attached, have very little to do with the outer animal man: as the principles high above our physical reality, they are not in the least concerned about the standard associations of any words that a profane might attach to words sex or gender.

Of course, there is one more thing, and I think you meant this with the "warning sticker", Yinlong: Intelligent people who are yet very much attached to the cultural side of things can understand the meaning in a wrong way, and turn away from occultism. To this I can only say, like Koot Hoomi did on several occasions, concerning his own times similar problems with the "gentlemen": they never were into occultism, should they be able to make such a simple mistake. These are precisely the cultural walls that one must either climb or find the way through the several possible & available gateways. The same goes, and starts with, us being Satanists. This too is a front, a linguistic & cultural facade, which one must see through in order to reach the temple inside. Should one grasp the first assocations of the word, he will instantly fumble & fall.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
Yinlong
Frater
Posts: 230
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2016 6:12 pm

Re: The Mahatma Letters to A.P. Sinnett (Reading Group)

Postby Yinlong » Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:47 pm

Thank you frater Nefastos for your thorough answer and time devoted to answer these stray questions and my personal ponderings. Actually, your answer probably built also solid ground for the letters and actual topics at hand too! At least, I got very much "flesh" out of them ;) So, I think nothing lost - vice versa.

More on the topic I tried to approach in my thinking (the other 10-25% or the things apart that you commented very intelligently and profoundly): So, kind of again, I think we agree on everything on the level said and discussed here - and on things on actual topic. So, the part/levels that were missed (I knew it would be too short a message to get the other underlying themes (I verily think everything here are relevant, also truly related - and the building blocks are exactly what you mention) So, to not take the topic further astray here - remind me to open up what I was after here (in case I forget to discuss it next time we meet and there's 30 to 60 minutes to explain - and there's perhaps a pint or some wine at hand ;) ). Not rush whatsoever of course, this is a very long thought-process and all the time developing in my head - it seems.

Keywords beyond what was discussed here will be: thinking non-polar, non-cubical and non-matrix entities, language (also programming languages, don't worry, I'll explain in layman terms :D), and futurism / true-trans-humanism etc. - and of course can occultism act like an anchor here (again) - Personally I think it actually can. However, maybe going too far away from things relevant to anybody on this thread, but I think this might offer a window for future possibilities.
Quaerendo Invenietis - Na dìomhcuimhnich a-chaoidh - Feuer frei!

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests