book of sitra achra standard edition

Discussion on literature other than by the Star of Azazel.
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Nefastos
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Re: book of sitra achra standard edition

Postby Nefastos » Fri May 30, 2014 6:28 pm

It's funny how this discussion spontaneously opened here, when just a couple of weeks ago I started a thread to speak about these kinds of things, but it has zero answers. :lol:

Personally I can understand both sides, the publishers/authors/readers who want to make or buy precious items, as well as those who want to keep things simple & inexpensive. I don't see a problem with expensive editions, since no one has to buy them; telling someone it's wrong to make them available is beyond me. Those who want to make money by purchasing & then reselling in exorbitant prices spiritual or occult books just for money I personally find distasteful & vulgar, but it's not my place to tell others how to behave, as long as they are not actually harming anyone.

I enjoy both paperbacks & rare editions, with perhaps some personal preference on the former. More later with better time.

p.s. Please remember to refrain from unfruitful accusations. Voicing your personal opinions in a calm manner is a different thing altogether, & all opinions are welcome as long as they have been carefully thought over.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
Vritra
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Re: book of sitra achra standard edition

Postby Vritra » Fri May 30, 2014 8:01 pm

Well,

I prefer to buy a well made quality product. I buy hardcovers and sometimes deluxe editions.....i can appreciate the craftsmanship and that in combination with amazing content of the book makes the book to me something precious to keep.

Also, as a publishers myself....i believe in that high quality written works should be housed in a tome equal to its contents. I think it is a token of respect and appreciation from the publisher to the author who has worked so hard to write the manuscript and who then delivers something interesting and worthy. Housing the work in a beautiful and durable tome makes it a true work of art that can last for many years.

About the 2nd hand market: although i don't 'agree' so much with some of the asking prices of books which are sometimes brand new. I do see that it sometimes does create extra exposure for some books. I have discovered great books via the 2nd hand market of which some i didn't know they exist.

I think with any business and goods there will always be people who try to speculate with any product to make more money....be it in jewelry, rare punk vinyl records, watches, books etc.

:)
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Re: book of sitra achra standard edition

Postby Nefastos » Fri May 30, 2014 8:25 pm

Vritra wrote:I prefer to buy a well made quality product.


I think it's safe to say that everyone would. It's just not everyone has money to do that, & because of that, it's nice to have other possibilities.

Not long ago I actually wrote an essay about grimoires, & brought up this question about the "magic item value" of the said books, which is not a recent thing, but goes centuries - or millennia - back in time. Of course, the whole world, culture, and our approach to occult (by which I actually mean, occultism's approach to us) has changed much in past decades & perhaps most of all in the recent post-internet years. Whatever the era, I think true knowledge can never be brought with money. Even by giving books away free, we can't make others digest actual esoteric knowledge; and neither can be keep it away from the "wrong" people by making barricades which money could unlock. The question is complicated, with no precise right answers in my opinion. Rather, it's about different tastes & situations of life. Still interesting, and discussable.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Benemal
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Re: book of sitra achra standard edition

Postby Benemal » Fri May 30, 2014 9:22 pm

If I was rich, I would buy ridiculously expensive books, but being poor (by my country's standards), 55 € is an expensive book. It is a priority, so it doesn't matter if I have to eat just oatmeal because I don't have money for pizza. I've got this thing, that I believe I need and it's a beautiful object also without gold leaf and goat skin.
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Re: book of sitra achra standard edition

Postby swordofapostasy » Fri May 30, 2014 9:52 pm

Vritra wrote:Well,

I prefer to buy a well made quality product. I buy hardcovers and sometimes deluxe editions.....i can appreciate the craftsmanship and that in combination with amazing content of the book makes the book to me something precious to keep.

Also, as a publishers myself....i believe in that high quality written works should be housed in a tome equal to its contents. I think it is a token of respect and appreciation from the publisher to the author who has worked so hard to write the manuscript and who then delivers something interesting and worthy. Housing the work in a beautiful and durable tome makes it a true work of art that can last for many years.

About the 2nd hand market: although i don't 'agree' so much with some of the asking prices of books which are sometimes brand new. I do see that it sometimes does create extra exposure for some books. I have discovered great books via the 2nd hand market of which some i didn't know they exist.

I think with any business and goods there will always be people who try to speculate with any product to make more money....be it in jewelry, rare punk vinyl records, watches, books etc.

:)
I agree very much with this actually, and if I had the money I would be all over these books, I don't think you overprice your books at all, given the craftsmanship that goes into them.

I am just speaking as a poor person with a real hunger for authentic spiritual and magical knowledge. How frustrating it is to see something amazing like some of these works come out and not be able to even read them let alone own a copy!
I live fairly hand to mouth, my money goes to food and bills and that's about it and that's fairly normal here in the U.S. for alot of people.
Besides, it's just a matter of time before most of this material ends up online anyway, I know Catechism of Lucifer and The Book of Sitra Achra can both be gotten for free online if you know where to look. Eventually someone will scan a copy and make a pdf and it'll be everywhere.
Because that is the future: all information will ultimately be held in common by the people one way or another, which makes sense because all art and knowledge belongs in the commons where it can do the greatest amount of benefit possible, so as I see it why fight the inevitable?
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Re: book of sitra achra standard edition

Postby Nefastos » Sat May 31, 2014 10:50 am

swordofapostasy wrote:Because that is the future: all information will ultimately be held in common by the people one way or another, which makes sense because all art and knowledge belongs in the commons where it can do the greatest amount of benefit possible, so as I see it why fight the inevitable?


I don't think it's necessarily so straightforward as that. There are people crazy enough to make art or write without compensation (& I know what I'm talking about here, having done just that for fifteen years), but because those people also must do something for the living, it becomes harder & harder if they are not compensated for their work - thus injuring greatly their possibilities to create. Isn't it quite selfish if one just wants the product for free, without considering what it means for those actually making those things? Most odd it becomes when we're talking about spiritual things. It would be an abominable thought for a true devotee to think that one practically lives on the expense of one's guru, saving one's money for personal use while his teachers live in poverty. Even if the latter would like to make that kind of sacrifice for the humankind, those students who would tolerate that kind of unjustice are, because of that naivety or selfishness, unable to actually realize the teachings.

Even more complicated it comes regarding the publishers & those kind of workers, who are usually not so much putting their own artistic/ideological energy in use than they are making that possible for other people. Authors can be fanatics who do not consider living for anything, but what about the publishers? One can't expect them to live & work on holy spirit alone; mostly it is not their own religious fury carrying them, and it really shouldn't, either.

Free knowledge & free art is a nice idea for the consumers, but it's a terrible idea for the artists, authors, & the people who help in the matter of production & distribution. That's why I think a wider range of possibilities is all that's needed: expensive books for customers who are willing to pay for the item value, inexpensive for those who simply want to study. And quite likely if not certainly that widening of possibilities will happen too over time, when the Left Hand Path occultism is no longer a small niche market. It has expanded tremendously already, in a matter of very short time. I expect that kind of trend to continue.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Re: book of sitra achra standard edition

Postby swordofapostasy » Sat May 31, 2014 10:53 pm

By and large Fr. Nefastos I agree with you (as usual,lol).

Free knowledge & free art is a nice idea for the consumers, but it's a terrible idea for the artists, authors, & the people who help in the matter of production & distribution.
In a capitalist society you are correct, and unfortunately that's the world we live in, for now. But as global capitalism crashes, as it must given that it is built on infinite growth when there is only a finite amount of resources to feed it, we as humans will be forced (provided we survive our own attempts to destroy ourselves) to reorganize along more sustainable lines. Ideally this would be along anarcho-communistic lines but who knows what could rise from the ashes of the current paradigm.

I kind of wish there would be a return to the older way of "paying" for things, especially when it came to wisdom held by a master: usually service of some type was needed or some other way to show you were "worthy" of the master's teaching. Now it just seems that whoever happens to hold the cash gets whatever they want. But therein we see again the problem of capitalism: the need to commodify all things, even spiritual and artistic creations.
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Re: book of sitra achra standard edition

Postby Nefastos » Sun Jun 01, 2014 10:02 am

swordofapostasy wrote:But therein we see again the problem of capitalism


Capitalism certainly has its flaws, but so do all the political agendas. Because the problem is in not in a specific outer structure, it's inside people. Switching to socialism, for example, would bring equal number of different kind of problems. This is one of the reasons why politics are the only actually forbidden subject in the Star of Azazel (see the Book of Gateways, p.48): we see that things cannot ultimately be changed by operating on the circumference (by the society's outer rules, that is), but only from the center (by our innermost, mostly unseen individual choices).

swordofapostasy wrote:I kind of wish there would be a return to the older way of "paying" for things, especially when it came to wisdom held by a master: usually service of some type was needed or some other way to show you were "worthy" of the master's teaching. Now it just seems that whoever happens to hold the cash gets whatever they want.


Call me a fanatical idealist in this, but I think that's actually how it's working even now. As I wrote above, I believe simply getting hold to some book can give one no benefit, & neither can teaching be withheld only because someone is poor. Like Eliphas Levi said, the needed books tend to come to one who is ready. And likewise, people not worthy of teaching cannot understand while reading something that's beyond their spiritual possibilities. Actually I think that people with more money often get more easily distracted from their study, & their money can actually hinder their occult advancement. They might have great books collected in their bookshelves, but they never put enough energy to actually digest all that wisdom. Poor people often have less distractions and more spiritual backbone to concentrate on that which is essential.

Internet most likely already encompasses enough actually, juridically free material (like the old sacred texts with no copyrights) to get anyone enlightened. :)
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Re: book of sitra achra standard edition

Postby Spinos » Wed Jun 04, 2014 2:58 pm

I agree alot with what Nefastos has written, what I reacted to mostly and one of the main reasons I signed up in this forum was actually this The Book of Sitra Achra-thread here with the “Entitled” people demanding cheap and free books, information, teachings and all else, crying over how poor they are while sitting on the internet day in and day out, living lives that actual poor people only could dream about…

Such people knowing so little about personal sacrifice and dedication haven’t even the slightest chance to benefit from anything related to Hard Initiatory Work as I have experienced it and in their hand any esoteric book will become nothing but fuel for the “Mental Masturbation” we discussed in the other thread.

Cool with new things to talk about on the Internet? Is that why such people want books? Not to practice but in order to have something new to bitch and moan about, or to pose with? That seem to be the driving force behind the majority of the visible “book collectors” nowadays…

Funny enough that book (TBoSA) was available for many (6?) months for pre-order and during that period I had big personal problems, no money, quit my job, was almost homeless as I drastically changed my family situation, had problems with old enemies that could have ended with people getting shot and still I managed to get a book on my own by just simply putting aside and saving the money needed.

I could have asked my mentor and he would have fixed a book for free for me, but why should I when I could work for and sacrifice a little bit for it so that I in the end could get it on my own and feel that I at least deserve to own it?

The book was available for many months, so it is bullshit that “Ixaxaar print so few books that they are impossible to get and they sell out too fast”.

The book was announced 1 year before it was published and pre-order was open for some months, so it is not a valid argument at all and a joke in itself.

If people are interested in these things they will keep themselves informed, if they have access to internet, and they will always know long in before hand when a new book is coming, that is how I keep myself informed and make sure to get what I want when it comes to these kinds of things.

Those lacking even that amount of interest have NOTHING to gain from such books anyway and have therefore also nothing to cry about.

Funny enough the same people are the ones collecting the PDFs of all these books, never paying for any of them, and still they ask for cheap books.

Same people use the books only to copy “cool” pictures and symbols from to post on their websites, but from what I have seen seldom do they put anything to actual practice (as they lack interest/drive).

Still they cry for more, for free books or for something simple and cheap. This "McDonald's Fast-food mentality" is really pathetic.


If you think, like what is posted in this thread, that it would be great with a personal relationship with a teacher and to exchange “favours” or “goods” instead of money I wonder how cheap you think you could earn the teachings of any teacher when you now think 70EUR is too much to pay for a hardbound and rare book?

These are not books that I buy randomly just because I like to spend money, if I buy books like this it is because I believe they are important to my spiritual and magical progress and in such case what is circa 70EUR if you have months to gather the money in order to make the purchase?

Invalid excuses from people that believe they are Entitled and that all things should come to them free of cost and without sacrifice.

If one doesn’t value the teachings enough to shut up and pay the price of a book (not talking about any deluxe editions here) it is better to spend the money on something else more fulfilling, like maybe McDonalds or beer...

The second-hand market is something else and also a joke, but that hasn’t anything to do with the writers and distributors of these kinds of books. That is a “collectors market” and not a Practitioner’s Market.

Practitioners will keep themselves informed and strike while the iron is hot.

That people feel *entitled* to all information and all teachings is insanity. Such arrogance breeds only amongst parasites and soft spoiled sub-humans that need to become awakened by experiencing real hardships…

You are entitled only to what you make yourself deserving of.

Funny also that people feel it is okay to steal from a spiritual mentor and then expect to benefit from his or her teachings and the spirits through whom such teachings have become manifested.

Atheistic materialism is the root of this kind of thinking…
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Re: book of sitra achra standard edition

Postby swordofapostasy » Wed Jun 04, 2014 10:59 pm

Spinos wrote:I agree alot with what Nefastos has written, what I reacted to mostly and one of the main reasons I signed up in this forum was actually this The Book of Sitra Achra-thread here with the “Entitled” people demanding cheap and free books, information, teachings and all else, crying over how poor they are while sitting on the internet day in and day out, living lives that actual poor people only could dream about…

Such people knowing so little about personal sacrifice and dedication haven’t even the slightest chance to benefit from anything related to Hard Initiatory Work as I have experienced it and in their hand any esoteric book will become nothing but fuel for the “Mental Masturbation” we discussed in the other thread.

Cool with new things to talk about on the Internet? Is that why such people want books? Not to practice but in order to have something new to bitch and moan about, or to pose with? That seem to be the driving force behind the majority of the visible “book collectors” nowadays…

Funny enough that book (TBoSA) was available for many (6?) months for pre-order and during that period I had big personal problems, no money, quit my job, was almost homeless as I drastically changed my family situation, had problems with old enemies that could have ended with people getting shot and still I managed to get a book on my own by just simply putting aside and saving the money needed.

I could have asked my mentor and he would have fixed a book for free for me, but why should I when I could work for and sacrifice a little bit for it so that I in the end could get it on my own and feel that I at least deserve to own it?

The book was available for many months, so it is bullshit that “Ixaxaar print so few books that they are impossible to get and they sell out too fast”.

The book was announced 1 year before it was published and pre-order was open for some months, so it is not a valid argument at all and a joke in itself.

If people are interested in these things they will keep themselves informed, if they have access to internet, and they will always know long in before hand when a new book is coming, that is how I keep myself informed and make sure to get what I want when it comes to these kinds of things.

Those lacking even that amount of interest have NOTHING to gain from such books anyway and have therefore also nothing to cry about.

Funny enough the same people are the ones collecting the PDFs of all these books, never paying for any of them, and still they ask for cheap books.

Same people use the books only to copy “cool” pictures and symbols from to post on their websites, but from what I have seen seldom do they put anything to actual practice (as they lack interest/drive).

Still they cry for more, for free books or for something simple and cheap. This "McDonald's Fast-food mentality" is really pathetic.


If you think, like what is posted in this thread, that it would be great with a personal relationship with a teacher and to exchange “favours” or “goods” instead of money I wonder how cheap you think you could earn the teachings of any teacher when you now think 70EUR is too much to pay for a hardbound and rare book?

These are not books that I buy randomly just because I like to spend money, if I buy books like this it is because I believe they are important to my spiritual and magical progress and in such case what is circa 70EUR if you have months to gather the money in order to make the purchase?

Invalid excuses from people that believe they are Entitled and that all things should come to them free of cost and without sacrifice.

If one doesn’t value the teachings enough to shut up and pay the price of a book (not talking about any deluxe editions here) it is better to spend the money on something else more fulfilling, like maybe McDonalds or beer...

The second-hand market is something else and also a joke, but that hasn’t anything to do with the writers and distributors of these kinds of books. That is a “collectors market” and not a Practitioner’s Market.

Practitioners will keep themselves informed and strike while the iron is hot.

That people feel *entitled* to all information and all teachings is insanity. Such arrogance breeds only amongst parasites and soft spoiled sub-humans that need to become awakened by experiencing real hardships…

You are entitled only to what you make yourself deserving of.

Funny also that people feel it is okay to steal from a spiritual mentor and then expect to benefit from his or her teachings and the spirits through whom such teachings have become manifested.

Atheistic materialism is the root of this kind of thinking…
I kind of feel this is directed at me and some of my arguments here and perhaps there is some misunderstanding. I don't even remotely feel that I am "entitled" to ANYTHING in this world, I have fought for every single thing I have and I do not expect to be handed a free book.

I am utterly anti-materialistic, so much so that I have vowed to stay monetarily poor even if I had the chance at material fortune. I am so anti-materialistic that I view buying and selling works of sacred spirituality that should be labors of love as a profane attempt at the commodification of spirituality. That is not to say that I don't believe artists shouldn't be rewarded for their work, credit should be given where it is due after all.

I am willing to provide any service I am capable of in fair trade for what I want. I am simply recognizing the reality that we as a society will inevitably move towards a more communal existence as the current system fails because that is the only sustainable and beneficial way to operate a society.

So there's no whining going on here, just a discussion on prices and availability of these types of texts. 70 euros may not seem like much to you for what is arguably a priceless item, but that's roughly $100 which for a low income citizen in the midwest U.S. is pretty damn hard to come by.

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