Challenges in the Star of Azazel's International Presence

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Polyhymnia
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Re: Challenges in the Star of Azazel's International Presence

Post by Polyhymnia »

I very much appreciate this thread, and I do have a few thoughts. They are kind of muddied, and I'm fumbling a bit to figure them out, but they've been bouncing around in my head for some time now.
Nefastos wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:03 am Outside Finland, there are extremely few possibilities for meetings, and loneliness of the members must make hard to feel the shared spiritual, astral & ideal presence.


Absolutely this is true, but I do believe we've been doing our best with our resources, as challenging as it is. Last year Silvaeon and I did travel a long ways to spend a short but sweet time together, which was wonderful. We wanted to do it again this year, but the state of the world didn't permit it. We even went as far as a few of us international brethren tentatively planning a trip to Finland for 2021, but again, so much right now as uncertain. But in Phanes we do try to keep checked in with each other, especially on important days. Perhaps it's my imagination which has always been healthy and active, but I seldom do anything without feeling the collective energy of the SoA. It's as natural to me as breathing. Whether this phenomena is extrinsic or intrinsic, I welcome it fully, for this is an important reason why I'm able to continue without feeling too desolate.
Nefastos wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:03 am
There have been no new English publications for some time, which also might make one feel the association thin. Even though the Unseen Fire III is in the process of making, brother Smaragd has been extra busy in translating English articles and important correspondence, and English translations of books have been waiting editing for some time, these things are like distant echoes from the depths until their publications will be achieved. One must be carefully tuned indeed if one is to hear what happens in the English part of SoA under the vast & mostly silent waves.


One reason for a drop in my forum activity is also due to editing for UFIII, as well as editing brother Smaragd's finished translations, and finding the balance is sometimes very difficult. I am hopeful that soon the fruits of labour will be visible.
Nefastos wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:03 am
It sometimes seems a bit weird to visit this English forum & see mostly us Finns talking here with each other. Is there really not in this wide & nowadays magnificently open world more interest for this approach of uniting occultism that seeks ascension instead of thrills & magic spells, pictures of one's altar & what new grimoires we have shopped lately? Is the occultism today really that shallow? Or are there some other challenges, more acute, that I have not taken seriously enough? That is, can I do something more, or should you, dear reader, do something more? For I believe that our cause is wise and important, and should receive more dynamic response.


I agree, but I am so grateful for those who choose to communicate on this forum in English with those of us who cannot speak Finnish. I can't always participate, because the subject matter is sometimes so out of my element that I can barely grasp it, but the fact that it exists for a time in the future when I can come back to it with more knowledge and understanding is very comforting to me. I do think that the world of occultism is saturated in many parts with superficiality, which is one of the reasons why the SoA is so very dear to me. I think the biggest challenge lies within the shrouds of occultism in itself. When things are hidden, it is up to the specific individual to decide how far through the veil they want to go. Our world is plagued with vanity and ego, and nothing exemplifies that more than social media, so unfortunately a hashtag search on the occult will bring forth a paltry amount of beneficial occult information, and an entire universe of occult fashion and makeup tutorials, etc. Some would argue that the occult world has no place on something like social media, but I would say that using those channels wisely could help be a piece of the puzzle to rising to this challenge.

Nefastos wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:03 am
Do you have any other approaches, or thoughts, questions, suggestions to share?
I have visions of many beautiful things. Lodge Phanes is starting to bloom as we find our footing, and I think some of the things we have in the works will send some beautiful veins into the world and hopefully reach others like us with a little more ease. We have talks of a music cell once UFIII has been completed, and I think that will be very fruitful in many ways.
"Limited love asks for possession of the beloved, but the unlimited asks only for itself." -Kahlil Gibran
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Re: Challenges in the Star of Azazel's International Presence

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Aquila wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 2:39 pm

This questions is intended to everyone who might want to answer: what do you think is needed and what kind of international presence is expected? What is the best way to work on it?
I think a broader, yet meaningful reach is a good goal, but I know that I would be worried about alienating members who have been here much longer than I. Boreas mentioned a Facebook ad, but I have a feeling that something like that wouldn't go over well. What do you guys think about asking these questions in the Finnish forum? Do you think some of our brethren there may have some ideas? Some may not want to waste energy on international matters, but what we choose to do on the international side will most likely affect in some ways the Finnish side, since we are part of the same whole. Do we have members who oppose reaching more people? Are we equally yolked in that way?
Aquila wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 2:39 pm
Don't get this wrong but I think one of the problems is that doing something does not always feel rewarding. Work leads to more work, and that work leads to others being more inactive because someone else is already doing it and then the ones doing the work get tired. The age-old challenge we have. One side of this challenge is that people think the expectations are so high that they are not able to reach them. Within this problem is hidden some of the negative and positive aspects of individualism vs. the collective which is in the heart of many challenges of our time. I think we need a different kind of system in the background and longevity in keeping it rolling. With our website and blogs, or whatever our channel of publishing online is, we should aim at "making a name" which might sound superficial but it doesn't have to be so because we shouldn't be afraid to harness some our ambitions and skills in work that can be beneficial to many. With making a name I mean publishing writings that are credible, intelligent, interesting and highly addictive in quality content :) If we want to further our international presence we just have to do it by ourselves, stay constant and not abandon the blog/website at some later point as it might take years to build. Making this work demands that more people are working behind the same goal and giving their ideas to articles, writing and publishing. When there is a goal that we share and ways to work on them, things get more rewarding by themselves as you get the feeling of being successful in what you do = feeling that you have grown and learnt during the work that you have done. The work itself becomes our teacher. Naturally little positive push is needed to help oneself and others to start the work. To help that we need to have a plan of how to do these things and what kind of system, channels etc. are needed to further the process in a way that things don't end up in the usual results. To prevent only repeating the same pattern that we have went through many times, a change in thinking is needed as much as sheer will to do something.

That is, indeed, the cycle. I think right now specifically times have been extra challenging for pretty much every human, in one way or another, and the consequences of these extra challenging times are manifesting themselves in ways we all feel. I think a large amount of us are just trying to keep our heads above water, but the time will come to breathe easy again, and perhaps people will return with renewed energy. I think you have very valuable ideas, Aquila. In the future perhaps we can look at other mediums, as well. I see things like podcasts and blogs being valuable for many people (not for me, personally, since I have one of those brains that can't absorb auditory information without a visual or musical component, so people talking at me is not for me) and who knows what new marvels technology will bring in the coming years. I am dedicated to consistent effort, even if the task is mammoth, and even (especially) if the pace is slow.
"Limited love asks for possession of the beloved, but the unlimited asks only for itself." -Kahlil Gibran
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Re: Challenges in the Star of Azazel's International Presence

Post by Silvaeon »

Lots to touch on, and the conversation already moves too fast for me to keep up with, so I'm inevitably going to miss some things, but - some thoughts:


Nefastos wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:03 am It seems that our international presence has once again downshifted recently. Many members outside Finland have either left, or succumbed into silence or inactivity. New people outside Finland enter the forum (or, as far as I know, the lodges) only rarely.
This is definitely the case, and I won't argue too much against it. Inactivity has definitely been and to some degree still is a challenge on the international side. But part of the way this is seen (or rather, activity is not seen) is due to the current structure we're working in. Now that we are functioning as independent Lodges, the international side is doing just that, and a lot of our activity is happening behind the closed doors of the Lodge, so to speak. I have no contact with any other Lodges, so I can't bear witness to how they function or what they are up to - although I know they are certainly still active. I think its partly just a matter of the closed off nature of things now. At least on my end of things, my priorities have had to shift, which means putting the time and energy I have for online communication into the Lodge itself, which leaves less, or as it is, basically none left for the public forum. Speaking just for myself, I'm always in awe of how much some others are able to output, and all the ongoing conversations and efforts here on the English side are certainly read and appreciated - I just have very little to ability to add to them myself on-top of the other responsibilities.
Nefastos wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:03 am
The main reason would surely be the distance. In Finland we have many possibilities to meet & be active more easily, because there are so many members that most people find at least somebody who share one's own approaches and make association more natural. Outside Finland, there are extremely few possibilities for meetings, and loneliness of the members must make hard to feel the shared spiritual, astral & ideal presence.
This is also certainly part of the challenge. I think new international members come expecting to find that camaraderie and community readily available, and then have difficulty activating when that is not necessarily the case because we as international members are spread quite thin as it is. Much remains left to the individual. And in the case of Phanes, it's been a slow process of learning who we are as a Lodge, so it's not exactly a ready-made structure that one would be joining. It's all very much a work in progress and one that requires time and patience, for better or worse. And indeed, those chances to meet with someone are extremely rare - I'm lucky to have had a few of these opportunities which I'm incredibly grateful for, but it just as easily could not have happened. I'm lucky and thankful for the friends and connections I've made here, but I didn't necessarily join the SoA seeking those things. I joined because I was moved by the literature, and I agree with the philosophy and goals and wish to contribute to sharing them as much as I can. I think for potential new members, the ideals need to be reason #1 for wanting to join. Everything else should be secondary.
Nefastos wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:03 am
One by one our English speaking members & guests have dropped somewhere, which makes the meaningful conversation & uplifting experiences more & more difficult for those few who remain, like our precious sisters Polyhymnia & Cerastes. It is so much easier for us Finns to make Finnish content, and the international part should by now be able to more active. Yet it seems to walk only with very uncertain, hesitating steps.
A lot of the time right now, the "somewhere" is just within the Lodge. First it was quite a shock to sort of get thrown together into the international Lodge during the initial structural change, and then another shock to lose the members forum, which really made us (me? I can't speak for anyone else) feel closed off from the rest of things. So it's just been a matter of having to adjust to all these continuous changes, and as a result it's been a bit of a slow and difficult process to get things going. But they are indeed starting to get going. I can't deny that it's been uncertain and hesitating on my end, but I sort of inherited this leadership position due to necessity and it is far out of my general comfort zone, so I'm just trying to navigate it as best I can, which admittedly is often not very well. But all of that said, while there is still room for a lot of improvement, which I hope and believe we can get to, Phanes as a whole is actually more active right now than it ever has been.
Cerastes wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:11 am On the long run we might need more international members to keep this going. In enjoy working in Lodge Phanes there have been many good ideas lately and the members are more active than before. But as you can see, there is little time for forum activity.
Just quoting Cerastes here as she put it more succinctly than all my ramblings above.

Regarding the public forum activity, as I mentioned before, I really am in awe of some members ability to consistently output at a high volume. For me, my time and energy is so limited, and there are only very small windows which I am able to post in. Plus it takes me forever to gather my thoughts enough enough to write anything, that it is often just not realistic for me to communicate regularly in this manner. It's just the reality and downside of internet communication in my case. I do wish the rest of my life was less demanding, leaving more time for discussions on here, but it is what it is. So I really am appreciative of anyone that does find and take the time to write regularly. Hats off to all of you.
Nefastos wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:40 pm
Aquila wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:53 amStruggling with other people's activity is also something that is very stressful and makes things more difficult.

Sadly, this is an enduring paradox in our work, the ever-looming Fifth Principle.
Underlining Aquila's sentiment here. When I first found myself having to lead Phanes, I struggled with member's inactivity and it weighed on me a lot. Trying to push against it and create ways for people to activate caused me a lot of stress, when my attempts were met with seeming uninterest. But this was not necessarily the way things needed to be. Anyone who I would consider more on the inactive side of the lodge right now has expressed their wish to remain in the Lodge and aligned with the SoA, and there are just varying life circumstances, personal challenges, whatever it may be, that lead to bits of silence, even if lengthy. I don't feel like it's my place to push too much against this and demand anything more of the members than they are able to put forward at any given time. We all have our demons to deal with and we do what we can. Right now Phanes has 11 members, and I think 60% of us are fairly active, the other 40% still wishing to remain, and I think things will bounce back as situations allow and as the Lodge continues to figure itself out.

Nefastos wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:40 pm
Cerastes wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:11 amThe problem at hand ist that there is so much interviews and media presence in Finnland and almost none in international media. Sure we have wonderful books like Fosforos and CoL but not everyone gets their hands on them.

Yes... The first part will demand its time, like it did in Finland. The second faces (like I have said) very bizarre ongoing problems with editors & artists. But like obnoxion said, these will sort themselves out at some point, should we keep trying. One more challenge for the English publications is that the brotherhood's number one publisher in Finland is mostly interested in Finland's own occult scene, so it would require extra work to find a good publisher that has logistics ready outside Finland
I've probably mentioned it before, but I think Anathema would be a great vehicle for English language publications. Of course I have no idea what the logistics of that would actually look like, but it really fits in my mind. I would like to start at least investigating the publication side of things with Protogonos, but I am hesitant and uncertain there once again, as I'm coming in blind. But we'll see how UFIII unfolds. What English language books are awaiting editing right now? I know Writings on Magic has been on the table for some time with a generally inactive member right now, and I have no knowledge of it's status. But maybe we can re-asses and re-assign that if necessary. Is there anything else awaiting the right workers?

Aquila wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 2:39 pm This questions is intended to everyone who might want to answer: what do you think is needed and what kind of international presence is expected? What is the best way to work on it?
I think this is the key question: What is expected? From my point of view right now, Phanes is working on projects, we're taking small and organic steps to figure out who we are as a Lodge, and those not able to or who just aren't participating right now have expressed their wish to remain in the Lodge. That's all I can expect of anyone right now. But I'm curious to see how others may answer this question.

Apologies if all of this sounds defensive or anything from me. I don't mean to be. The international side certainly has it's challenges and it's issues. I just feel like we're trying here! :lol: But I am glad for the conversation. The desire to do more, and to do better, bodes well for the future - even if there are a lot of growing pains and challenges right now. All the ideas presented so far sound like good ones to me. Thanks to Nefastos for bringing up the questions and to everyone offering suggestions so far.
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Re: Challenges in the Star of Azazel's International Presence

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I am very grateful that you have took time to answer this so thoroughly & quickly, and most of all, in public, which is not very natural to many people. But I reason that it actually saves a lot of time to go through most discussions in public, since in that way people outside the brotherhood, in the other lodges &c. see the situation extremely clearly. It also saves time ultimately, since we do not need first to discuss & then to inform, which drains a lot of reserves, but the information is available instantly.

What you told here as the Phanes guide, brother Silvaeon, puts much of my mind to rest. You tell me that there is a lot going on in the Phanes, even if it does not always show to the public side. In that case, perhaps we should actually ponder Boreas' suggestion of some trumpeting about our inside activity in the SoA, so that people would know that there are indeed possibilities for activity not only in the Finnish side, but in the international lodge(s) as well. Perhaps not right now, but at some not too far point in the future.

You asked about the books in need of editing. The Demons' Cube (aka. Writings on Magic) new alpha translation is the only one that is ready for that, as far as I can quickly recall. Then at some point Fosforos should be re-published; it would not need editing, it would need art. And actually, when all the other things – editors, artists, publisher – are ready, it is not hard for me to start translating my other texts quickly. I alpha-translated D.C. in just few weeks. And it really seems that I should continue doing that kind of work myself, since all the translations made by other people have been in so great need of editing by myself that it has been easier for me to create a new translation from a scratch than to start commenting those word by word. (Sorry about this, all you people who have translated my books. Just say, if you can: "Damn authors & their hubris!!") But that is not as hard as it sounds, when there is a good, easy relationship going on with the editor & the publisher. When the first very demanding steps of Graal grades system have been taken after the Winter Solstice, I should be able to dedicate myself to that kind of work. Especially if you in Phanes can help me finding the channels for this work.

Polyhymnia wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 5:16 amI think a broader, yet meaningful reach is a good goal, but I know that I would be worried about alienating members who have been here much longer than I. Boreas mentioned a Facebook ad, but I have a feeling that something like that wouldn't go over well. What do you guys think about asking these questions in the Finnish forum? Do you think some of our brethren there may have some ideas? Some may not want to waste energy on international matters, but what we choose to do on the international side will most likely affect in some ways the Finnish side, since we are part of the same whole. Do we have members who oppose reaching more people? Are we equally yolked in that way?

I am not sure if some people's minds have changed in the more recent lodge-based society, but in the past many brethren were strongly against any presence in the social media; I always got the impression that most members in Finland considered their occultism "holy" in a way that it should not be brought closely together with things that were considered (and often indeed are) shallow. Personally I do not see dualism between forms that are shallow and the core that is deep, but rather I see pitiful shallowness in mentality that tries to appear very deep or, more often, "above things and not caring". O dear Satan how common that is in our low self-esteem country...
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Re: Challenges in the Star of Azazel's International Presence

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Polyhymnia wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 5:16 am
Aquila wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 2:39 pm
Don't get this wrong but I think one of the problems is that doing something does not always feel rewarding. Work leads to more work, and that work leads to others being more inactive because someone else is already doing it and then the ones doing the work get tired. The age-old challenge we have. One side of this challenge is that people think the expectations are so high that they are not able to reach them. Within this problem is hidden some of the negative and positive aspects of individualism vs. the collective which is in the heart of many challenges of our time. I think we need a different kind of system in the background and longevity in keeping it rolling. With our website and blogs, or whatever our channel of publishing online is, we should aim at "making a name" which might sound superficial but it doesn't have to be so because we shouldn't be afraid to harness some our ambitions and skills in work that can be beneficial to many. With making a name I mean publishing writings that are credible, intelligent, interesting and highly addictive in quality content :) If we want to further our international presence we just have to do it by ourselves, stay constant and not abandon the blog/website at some later point as it might take years to build. Making this work demands that more people are working behind the same goal and giving their ideas to articles, writing and publishing. When there is a goal that we share and ways to work on them, things get more rewarding by themselves as you get the feeling of being successful in what you do = feeling that you have grown and learnt during the work that you have done. The work itself becomes our teacher. Naturally little positive push is needed to help oneself and others to start the work. To help that we need to have a plan of how to do these things and what kind of system, channels etc. are needed to further the process in a way that things don't end up in the usual results. To prevent only repeating the same pattern that we have went through many times, a change in thinking is needed as much as sheer will to do something.

That is, indeed, the cycle. I think right now specifically times have been extra challenging for pretty much every human, in one way or another, and the consequences of these extra challenging times are manifesting themselves in ways we all feel. I think a large amount of us are just trying to keep our heads above water, but the time will come to breathe easy again, and perhaps people will return with renewed energy. I think you have very valuable ideas, Aquila. In the future perhaps we can look at other mediums, as well. I see things like podcasts and blogs being valuable for many people (not for me, personally, since I have one of those brains that can't absorb auditory information without a visual or musical component, so people talking at me is not for me) and who knows what new marvels technology will bring in the coming years. I am dedicated to consistent effort, even if the task is mammoth, and even (especially) if the pace is slow.
Yes, things have lately been more draining than usually and like you and fra Silvaeon also said, we are working in lodge Phanes with small steps and with the resources that we have. It's a process that takes time and has to be done with patience.

What I suggested was basically a medium (for publishing articles, commentaries, maybe even books etc.) that would be either "loosely" related with the fraternity, like Viides Askel is, or just a group of members who would be interested in writing articles in English and publishing them on our already existing website. The first option would be more freer to have a larger scope and the other option would demand tighter concentration on the issues that the SoA is dealing with. It's nothing to hurry about but I wanted to bring it up as an example of what could possibly be one of the directions in the future.
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Re: Challenges in the Star of Azazel's International Presence

Post by Mars »

About raising awareness...

I'm not a member but as someone who's gained so much from the SoA and Nefastos's books I'll chime in nonetheless. I personally know a few (Finnish) people who are aware of the SoA either through the website, articles in Finnish media or radio interviews. They might not write in the forums or join the brotherhood, but they still at least know about it. So the possibility of an influence is there. What happens after that depends on the individual, of course, but the key point is that they are aware, and if they are aware it's possible to be touched by the teachings. This invisible work that the SoA does to me is the most important thing even though it might not show to the outside world in any way.

In raising awareness, things like videos or podcasts etc. can be of an enormous help. It doesn't mean that the whole breadth of the teachings of the SoA could or should be condensed to a ten minute video, but they are tools that can be utilized in these times. I don't know much about the international occult scene, but I suspect that the spectres of Crowley et al. still loom large. Still, in this sinking world there must be people who are seeking for lifeboats.
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Re: Challenges in the Star of Azazel's International Presence

Post by Silvaeon »

Nefastos wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 8:31 am I am very grateful that you have took time to answer this so thoroughly & quickly, and most of all, in public, which is not very natural to many people. But I reason that it actually saves a lot of time to go through most discussions in public, since in that way people outside the brotherhood, in the other lodges &c. see the situation extremely clearly. It also saves time ultimately, since we do not need first to discuss & then to inform, which drains a lot of reserves, but the information is available instantly.
I can definitely see the truth in is. In my experience also, on the few occasions that I've talked to potential new members, it does take quite a bit of energy to talk with them about how things are very much a work in progress on the international side, only to have them lose interest. So in this regard, it is very good to have this information viewable to anyone. In this, there is great potential to be a part of building something beautiful, if one is patient and willing to join in the process. If one is just wishing to join and take part in something "ready-made" with simple steps to follow, perhaps it would be best to look elsewhere at this time.

Nefastos wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 8:31 am
Polyhymnia wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 5:16 amI think a broader, yet meaningful reach is a good goal, but I know that I would be worried about alienating members who have been here much longer than I. Boreas mentioned a Facebook ad, but I have a feeling that something like that wouldn't go over well. What do you guys think about asking these questions in the Finnish forum? Do you think some of our brethren there may have some ideas? Some may not want to waste energy on international matters, but what we choose to do on the international side will most likely affect in some ways the Finnish side, since we are part of the same whole. Do we have members who oppose reaching more people? Are we equally yolked in that way?

I am not sure if some people's minds have changed in the more recent lodge-based society, but in the past many brethren were strongly against any presence in the social media; I always got the impression that most members in Finland considered their occultism "holy" in a way that it should not be brought closely together with things that were considered (and often indeed are) shallow. Personally I do not see dualism between forms that are shallow and the core that is deep, but rather I see pitiful shallowness in mentality that tries to appear very deep or, more often, "above things and not caring". O dear Satan how common that is in our low self-esteem country...
I have really mixed views about social media presence. On the one hand, it is definitely a powerful tool with the potential of reaching many people. But it indeed often feels like it is shallow and cheap. I've had some success using facebook groups like "rare occult books" for example to sell our publications as an individual when working as Protogonos Dist. The same goes for instagram, but I really struggled with using that platform. I definitely sold a handful of books as a result of that presence - but being as it so image-based in ways that seek quick gratification, I really had to consider how I could try and play into that without cheapening what we're trying to do. I think and hope that I managed to do a decent job in that regard, but it is definitely a challenging and slippery slope and one that I didn't particularly relish being responsible for. Being used as a tool for selling publications I think is a reasonable use of the platform, but something like an official Star of Azazel facebook, or facebook ads would feel really quite bizarre to me, and not something that I would personally like to see. Some avenue of trumpeting down the road is a good idea though, and with the eventual manifestation of new publications, and something like the blog idea Aquila has brought up, I think things could start to grow again.

Nefastos wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 8:31 am You asked about the books in need of editing. The Demons' Cube (aka. Writings on Magic) new alpha translation is the only one that is ready for that, as far as I can quickly recall. Then at some point Fosforos should be re-published; it would not need editing, it would need art. And actually, when all the other things – editors, artists, publisher – are ready, it is not hard for me to start translating my other texts quickly. I alpha-translated D.C. in just few weeks. And it really seems that I should continue doing that kind of work myself, since all the translations made by other people have been in so great need of editing by myself that it has been easier for me to create a new translation from a scratch than to start commenting those word by word. (Sorry about this, all you people who have translated my books. Just say, if you can: "Damn authors & their hubris!!") But that is not as hard as it sounds, when there is a good, easy relationship going on with the editor & the publisher. When the first very demanding steps of Graal grades system have been taken after the Winter Solstice, I should be able to dedicate myself to that kind of work. Especially if you in Phanes can help me finding the channels for this work.

Perhaps you could reach out to the brother who's been working with the Demons' Cube and touch base on it's status, or if you prefer I could do the same. Hopefully it moves forward in the shadows, or things can be re-assessed. I do hate to see things sitting too much when they are able to be worked on. It might be a little too much to take on right now with UFIII underway, but after that I'm sure one or two of us could try and take it on if necessary. I think Fosforos being re-published and available would be pretty huge as well. There certainly appears to be a demand for it, judging by the prices I've seen some people pay for it online. Unfortunately I have no real solution or skill contribute to the art and publisher situation - but perhaps once a publisher falls into place, art could as well. Do you think Anathema is worth continuing to consider or contact? They create really high-quality books (certainly from the physical perspective, and more often than not, the content as well in my experience) and have an existing readership and reach. It wouldn't be hard for me to send off an e-mail through Protogonos to them just to gauge if there is any interest, if you would like.

Aquila wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 10:01 am What I suggested was basically a medium (for publishing articles, commentaries, maybe even books etc.) that would be either "loosely" related with the fraternity, like Viides Askel is, or just a group of members who would be interested in writing articles in English and publishing them on our already existing website. The first option would be more freer to have a larger scope and the other option would demand tighter concentration on the issues that the SoA is dealing with. It's nothing to hurry about but I wanted to bring it up as an example of what could possibly be one of the directions in the future.
I do think this is a very good idea. On the book side of thing, perhaps with a lot of time and learning on my end, Protogonos could become the English version of Viides Askel. I won't deny there's a lot of hesitancy and uncertainty on my end about it, as I would be learning everything involved from scratch, and it's overwhelming to consider from a financial perspective as well. But it is something I want to be as open as possible to. But starting on a smaller scale with a blog of some sort, either under the Protogonos banner or something else we create under Phanes, could be a really great way to start as well.

Mars wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 11:13 am About raising awareness...

I'm not a member but as someone who's gained so much from the SoA and Nefastos's books I'll chime in nonetheless. I personally know a few (Finnish) people who are aware of the SoA either through the website, articles in Finnish media or radio interviews. They might not write in the forums or join the brotherhood, but they still at least know about it. So the possibility of an influence is there. What happens after that depends on the individual, of course, but the key point is that they are aware, and if they are aware it's possible to be touched by the teachings. This invisible work that the SoA does to me is the most important thing even though it might not show to the outside world in any way.
The awareness is a really good point. I think I managed to sell something like 50 books to an English audience (which both feels like not a lot, and also quite an achievement to me). Out of all those attempts to raise awareness, only one member joined the SoA as a result. But there certainly must be more ripples in awareness that I am not necessarily aware of, and it's something I do want to keep trying to build, while continuing to treat everything as sacred as it is.
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Polyhymnia
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Re: Challenges in the Star of Azazel's International Presence

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Silvaeon wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 8:30 pm Out of all those attempts to raise awareness, only one member joined the SoA as a result. But there certainly must be more ripples in awareness that I am not necessarily aware of, and it's something I do want to keep trying to build, while continuing to treat everything as sacred as it is.
If I'm not mistaken, that member was me! And I think it's important to note that I found Protogonos through instagram while searching for some occult curios to purchase for my collection. The rest, as they say, is history. I think putting out the blog under the Protogonos or Phanes banner is a really excellent idea, and we can perhaps share member's artwork over the already existing Protogonos instagram or even look at creating one for the latter if that's the route decided upon. I think Instagram is an excellent tool for sharing esoteric art, since one can decide how much they want to reach via hashtags and algorithms, or let things exist to be found through more occult channels, for those seeking out specific things. I think it's one of the best ways to get information out there without cheapening it in the process. Perhaps we should continue with specifics in the Phanes members area, not to drive this discussion underground, but to check in with all existing Phanes members on their thoughts on the matter. Or if the Phanes brethren feel comfortable contributing here, thoughts here would be most welcome. I wouldn't want to move forward on a project so public without it sitting well with all of our members.
"Limited love asks for possession of the beloved, but the unlimited asks only for itself." -Kahlil Gibran
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Re: Challenges in the Star of Azazel's International Presence

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Once again, and not for the last time, thank you everyone for so much discussion on these matters! Outsider opinions are very welcome also, Mars.

If you consider starting a blog, I can only say what I have learnt by hard experience: Take one person and bound him or her with oaths of perdition to add content in monthly (or whatever) basis in case no one else will write anything. Do that again (perhaps with a different person) every year or half year or so. For people will always first say that they can produce something, at some point, and most likely they will never do that. For we always have something else in our lives: things are going too bad, or too good, or too mediocre. Blogs that only start to die soon and those that are written extremely seldom give – in my opinion – worse impression than no blog whatsoever. This is one of those many things that would require long term commitment.

Silvaeon wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 8:30 pmI have really mixed views about social media presence. On the one hand, it is definitely a powerful tool with the potential of reaching many people. But it indeed often feels like it is shallow and cheap.

I don't disagree. Personally I haven't had Facebook account for years since I got really tired of its social sandbox undercurrents, and Instagram I use strictly for seeing pictures of buxom women. Yet at the quite recent past when we thought about the possibility for opening a physical bookstore in Finland, I was ready to embrace the fearful responsibility of updating both of these medias regularly, because that would then have been part of the Work. I can think about doing that later also, in case there would be an actual need, and actual plan.

Silvaeon wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 8:30 pmPerhaps you could reach out to the brother who's been working with the Demons' Cube and touch base on it's status, or if you prefer I could do the same.
&
Silvaeon wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 8:30 pmDo you think Anathema is worth continuing to consider or contact? They create really high-quality books (certainly from the physical perspective, and more often than not, the content as well in my experience) and have an existing readership and reach. It wouldn't be hard for me to send off an e-mail through Protogonos to them just to gauge if there is any interest, if you would like.

Thank you very much, brother. I will answer to these parts of your message by personal mail, since they deal with other persons who might not want themselves discussed in public.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Re: Challenges in the Star of Azazel's International Presence

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Nefastos wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:30 pm

If you consider starting a blog, I can only say what I have learnt by hard experience: Take one person and bound him or her with oaths of perdition to add content in monthly (or whatever) basis in case no one else will write anything. Do that again (perhaps with a different person) every year or half year or so. For people will always first say that they can produce something, at some point, and most likely they will never do that. For we always have something else in our lives: things are going too bad, or too good, or too mediocre. Blogs that only start to die soon and those that are written extremely seldom give – in my opinion – worse impression than no blog whatsoever. This is one of those many things that would require long term commitment.


One idea that could help us overcome this would be to spend some time perhaps in a preparatory phase where we write and keep a collection of articles and develop a content delivery schedule. This would alleviate the pressure and hopefully combat some of that mental dragging of the feet that can occur when one has taken on a large task. This is a practice that I have found very helpful with my own business endeavours.
Nefastos wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:30 pm
and Instagram I use strictly for seeing pictures of buxom women


:lol:

This is as good a reason as any to use the platform. I have an art profile as well as a personal profile, and I find the former is a really nice way to merge the sacred and the mundane in my life. I post various photographs and art projects, link to video projects and songs I work on, and almost all are directly related to my sacred life. I don't feel having it exist in this way cheapens it, but I'm also not trying to do anything other than allow it to exist.
"Limited love asks for possession of the beloved, but the unlimited asks only for itself." -Kahlil Gibran
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