Sex

Putting together ones life with the modern world.
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Nefastos
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Re: Sex

Post by Nefastos »

lux ferre wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 8:36 am
maybe I am just romantic person who truly belive love first sight

This brings us an important question, the one about love in its "airy" and "grounded" types. The love that sparkles immediately between two persons when they meet or something happens that makes their two important principles meet, and love that has seen a lot and establishes itself like a fortress, or a temple. Both are also different forms of vulnerability accepted, of opening oneself.

It's true that much that is spoken of as "love" is actually astral infatuation, fascination that is based on dazzling play of energies. But I still wouldn't say that it is not love; it is just love that needs to go through different phases to reach its other elements as well. The airy love of magnetic fascination is pretty much the basis of Erotic unity, and that's a force of terrible power.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
Tulihenki
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Re: Sex

Post by Tulihenki »

Nefastos wrote:
Sat May 09, 2020 2:47 pm
"jealousy": An animal trait that we must simply dissolve within us completely. This is one of those feelings out of which nothing good will come. It is similarly utterly bad feeling that the urge to violence or lie is; it must be wholly renewed in order to grow spiritually. Yes, it is understandable. But even for profanes, such a trait would create tremendous amounts of sorrow.
This brings me about 10 years back in my life. Exact timelines and details are blurry, but anyway I was in a relationship with a woman. We both were fiercely jealous about each others. We were quite young and the whole relationship was like a fire uncontrollable. It needed only one attractive man or female who by passed us and were fighting and shouting that's it this is over etc. I remember well one fight where I started to feel really pressured anger that I have not felt before or after - like the world was diminishing and black anger and hatred was moving towards my girlfriend from inside me. Now that I think I believe that most horrendous acts has been done in that kind of emotions. Luckily that energy started to fade away quite quickly as I was able to walk away even that my girlfriend was trying to push and provoke me.

But now comes the interesting shift in energies and I simply don't remember how shortly it was after that incident. When we were having sex we started to tell fantasies about each other with other people - these fantasies were not very ethical as they related to married men/women, but our jealousy started to melt away and our life became more balanced. Anyway slowly fantasies eventually separated us in a romantic way and we continued as dear friends which we still are.

Maybe shifting energies to fantasising married men/women (I still has them) ain't a perfect thing, but in my heart I can live with them and I can choose how to live with these thoughts. Jealousy is a horrible beast. Not missing that one. It controls so much.
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Re: Sex

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I would like to offer one perspective for the problems mentioned (ie. uncontrollability, power of desire, jealousy and intimacy). This might not be a solution for others but I see it meaningful for me.

Personally I feel that it can be bit dangerous to consider some emotions as bad or something that should be avoided, especially if the emotion is strong. When one sees an emotion as something low, “animal” or unfitting for an occultist, it can lead to a tendency of pushing unwanted emotions deep within and never truly facing them. I think this is something that creates psychological problems and also later cause spiritual deviations in occult practices.

Many traditions hold stable, tranquil and clear mind in high esteem and have developed different techniques for obtaining single pointed concentration. Different meditative states are often considered as necessary for occult work. But it is not easy to obtain, or at least for me. Many, like me, find their minds constantly stirring, confused, full of thoughts etc. But if you observe closely the content of your mind, it less likely that the mind is really plagued with uncontrollable urges to think mathematical equations or other purely abstract thinking. Even when engaging in our never ending inner dialog, it is quite often sparked by emotions like frustration, jealousy, hatred, insecurities, etc.. Someone said/did/did not do something etc. or we failed to live up to our image of ideal images that stirred ours feelings which in turn made us think about all these. More we have these unresolved issues like jealousy, more there are things that triggers the storm of inner dialog. At least my own thinking/mind is way more “controllable” when my emotions are clear and when the emotions are conflicting or reflect earlier “bad” experiences the thinking becomes excessive and uncontrollable. And if the mind content is only abstract thoughts, they are more easily directed and slowly controlled.

Therefore I think one way an occultist can practice their mind is to confront the feeling straight on. Just immerse oneself with them either when they happen naturally or in case of traumatic emotions, artificially trigger them using imagination. When the emotion appears, just start observing them without analyzing them with words, for they are not thoughts with words but emotions with feeling. Just look at the emotion and feel it in your body, energy and “astral” body. Where does it feel and how does it feel. Just by bringing your whole consciousness to it, the feeling often starts to transform. It may become something else, or start moving to different location. If it transforms to an another emotion, these can be the actual emotions which are behind it or they can be the ways how you hide or compensate the feeling. This makes you, some times painfully, aware of your own dynamics. Sometimes you find out that behind the jealousy there might be insecurity, fear of loosing the another, fear of being inferior in sex/kissing/friendship etc., fear of being alone etc.
By understanding the dynamics, you might be able to approach the situation or emotion more freely. It is way easier to communicate with the other involved in the situation whey you know what and why do you feel like you feel. And by working this way, you gain more understanding of these “negative” emotions like jealousy and it may become just energy that no longer control your mind or need to be suppressed. I feel that this can help becoming free from the attachments to behavior/feeling patterns. I think this also eases our tendency of consider something inferior or superior to other and releases our constructs that prevent union.

And when we speak of sex, love, relationships, occult partnership etc., I think this is very important part of inner working for obtaining really intimate connection.
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Ave
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Re: Sex

Post by Ave »

Zeraim wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 11:57 am
And by working this way, you gain more understanding of these “negative” emotions like jealousy and it may become just energy that no longer control your mind or need to be suppressed. I feel that this can help becoming free from the attachments to behavior/feeling patterns. I think this also eases our tendency of consider something inferior or superior to other and releases our constructs that prevent union.


Yep. Owning my subconscious feelings, thoughts, drama etc. has helped me to break free from distructive patterns - for example the draining sexual relationship I was in. There is layers within layers, so it takes time and courage. And as soon as one has sighed in relief - one finds that there's more. Isn't that just grand.

Nefastos wrote:
Sat May 09, 2020 2:47 pm


"jealousy": An animal trait that we must simply dissolve within us completely. This is one of those feelings out of which nothing good will come. It is similarly utterly bad feeling that the urge to violence or lie is; it must be wholly renewed in order to grow spiritually. Yes, it is understandable. But even for profanes, such a trait would create tremendous amounts of sorrow. Occultists cannot let themselves remain is such selfish emotions without slipping from the path of ascension. By this I don't mean we should remain unaffected in situations which belong to the area of jealousy. Rather, we should make those as situations of choice, where we either remain in relationship, or consider it ended, because our partner seems not committed enough. In case the partner is committed and we still feel jealous, we are asses. In case the partner is not committed and we remain in the relationship, likewise.
Animal indeed. But I find my own jealousy kind of yummy though. I use it to widen the imaginative gap between myself and the lover, so that I can desire even more. But I find it crushial that I'll never allow myself to act out the jealousy in a negative way. I think that the sense of gap/friction is elemental in the process of closing the gap between particles. (Also, it's possible that my stand on jealousy has something to do with insecure attachment and so on, but I won't go there this time.)

Do you think that it's spiritually immature to fuel desire with jealousy? Is the emotion still selfish, even though it is used in order to reach love? I know that it's impossible for you to answer me personally. But in a general level, maybe?

Love= the space in which oneness is experieced, in between two separate particles
Desire = the vehicle by which we sense (and imagine) separation
If you want to reborn, let yourself die.
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Nefastos
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Re: Sex

Post by Nefastos »

Zeraim wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 11:57 am
Personally I feel that it can be bit dangerous to consider some emotions as bad or something that should be avoided, especially if the emotion is strong. When one sees an emotion as something low, “animal” or unfitting for an occultist, it can lead to a tendency of pushing unwanted emotions deep within and never truly facing them. I think this is something that creates psychological problems and also later cause spiritual deviations in occult practices.

This is wisdom. In those rare cases when I brand something as truly bad, I do not mean that it can be dealt with easily and with onesided tools. Rather, often much better way is to "use a splinter to remove splinter": to find some way to turn the negative into positive. This is one of the basic elements in my own Satanism. (Satanism = turning bad into good; using apparently negative for something positive.)

My words that were exceptionally strong in this aspect were meant to give a bit of a startle from that nowadays surprisingly common idea that jealousy is "good" by itself. It is not good, it is bad. But bad things do not go away by hiding them, or claiming that we are able to annihilate them just like that. Some we can; some we can't. Even though there are many "low, “animal” or unfitting for an occultist" characteristics in myself, they are also very often characteristics that help my process in many ways. Yet I wouldn't say that that makes them good per se. I still must face these problems every day & work them like they work me. Is it hard work even when it is a loving caress; a true Jaboc's wrestle.

A great example of this effort to use every means – also the problematic ones – to reach the best possible outcome was given by Tulihenki:
Tulihenki wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 7:51 pm
But now comes the interesting shift [---]
Maybe shifting energies to fantasising married men/women (I still has them) ain't a perfect thing, but in my heart I can live with them and I can choose how to live with these thoughts.

Like Blavatsky – even she, who was a paragon of one-sidedness in occult effort! – said about occultism: Good result can sometimes come through a bad channel. That is, if used wisely, even problematic things can be made to work for the process of ascension. Not by taking, not by leaving, but by working the energies.

Ave wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 2:18 pm
Do you think that it's spiritually immature to fuel desire with jealousy? Is the emotion still selfish, even though it is used in order to reach love? I know that it's impossible for you to answer me personally. But in a general level, maybe?

Why the occult way is said to be the one of the razor's edge is mostly just because these kinds of things are wholly dependent on the situation as a whole. Because of that, the answer can be exactly the opposite whether it is given on general level (yes, such play is immature) or on a specific situation (it can be benefactory). This is one of those things why the necessity of a guru has been so much stressed: it is extremely hard for oneself to see the point where one's intention is leading upwards even when the means seem to be extremely unorthodox & "of the left hand", and when one just says to himself that it is so, but actually he has just succumbed into temptation.

I would say it comes back to what fra Zeraim said above:
Zeraim wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 11:57 am
And when we speak of sex, love, relationships, occult partnership etc., I think this is very important part of inner working for obtaining really intimate connection.

So, plays of jealousy might be titillating in a good way, in case both players know the rules & want to play the same game. I.e., when they "connect intimately". (Even the seemingly most intimate physical contact can be everything but that.) But playing a game of jealousy with an unsuitable partner would create quite a lot of anguish & drama of evil result.

Ave wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 2:18 pm
Love= the space in which oneness is experieced, in between two separate particles
Desire = the vehicle by which we sense (and imagine) separation

Indeed! Now when we are talking about sexuality & energizing play between the sexual polarities (desire or kâma), we have so many different possibilities for either Good or Bad combinations, that it is impossible to say that something wouldn't work, ever, or something should work, always. These are not only archetypal but also personal & therefore multidimensional dynamics.

Yet I always say, like Cato, that unloving and dishonest attitude really should be destroyed.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
Mars
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Re: Sex

Post by Mars »

Zeraim wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 11:57 am
Therefore I think one way an occultist can practice their mind is to confront the feeling straight on. Just immerse oneself with them either when they happen naturally or in case of traumatic emotions, artificially trigger them using imagination. When the emotion appears, just start observing them without analyzing them with words, for they are not thoughts with words but emotions with feeling. Just look at the emotion and feel it in your body, energy and “astral” body. Where does it feel and how does it feel. Just by bringing your whole consciousness to it, the feeling often starts to transform.
This has been my daily meditation, or in some ways anti-meditation practice for a while now. Being someone who's very emotional and often controlled by their (negative) emotions things came to a point when I realised that the only option is to descend to hell, so to speak, and confront them head on. It can be extremely painful but all the more important.
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Re: Sex

Post by Ave »

Nefastos wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 3:16 pm

This is one of those things why the necessity of a guru has been so much stressed: it is extremely hard for oneself to see the point where one's intention is leading upwards even when the means seem to be extremely unorthodox & "of the left hand", and when one just says to himself that it is so, but actually he has just succumbed into temptation.


Yes, the human ability to delude himself is a bottomless pit. I realized a quite long time ago that having a guru would be highly beneficial to my spiritual progress. But finding a solid, "real life" guru was a dream that I never really sought after (I didn't believe that I'd find one - which propably was a mistake.) I settled for the usual "everyone/ everything is your guru" -approach. And this sort of got me into a deluded mirrorhouse type-of-an experience. But in the mirrorhouse one is forced to really lean on his own inner wisdom... and I have no clue where I stand with that one, hahhaha (in reality I'm scared - hence the laugh).

(Sorry for lending your color, tried to erase it but didn't succeed.)
If you want to reborn, let yourself die.
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Cerastes
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Re: Sex

Post by Cerastes »

Ave wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 9:42 pm
Nefastos wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 3:16 pm

This is one of those things why the necessity of a guru has been so much stressed: it is extremely hard for oneself to see the point where one's intention is leading upwards even when the means seem to be extremely unorthodox & "of the left hand", and when one just says to himself that it is so, but actually he has just succumbed into temptation.


Yes, the human ability to delude himself is a bottomless pit. I realized a quite long time ago that having a guru would be highly beneficial to my spiritual progress. But finding a solid, "real life" guru was a dream that I never really sought after (I didn't believe that I'd find one - which propably was a mistake.) I settled for the usual "everyone/ everything is your guru" -approach. And this sort of got me into a deluded mirrorhouse type-of-an experience. But in the mirrorhouse one is forced to really lean on his own inner wisdom... and I have no clue where I stand with that one, hahhaha (in reality I'm scared - hence the laugh).

(Sorry for lending your color, tried to erase it but didn't succeed.)


This is indeed very difficult.
There was a time when I was fooling myself about my hidden motives precisely because I thought that with my field of study, I know it better and I don‘t need anyone to teach me. Well, that went wrong. It‘s one thing to understand the theory, written down by a great mind like Freud, Watzlawick or Adler. But it‘s a completely different thing to see through your own shadows because naturally we tend to hide away from uncomfortable truths.

As a child I was often told that demons lie to people and act as if they wanted to help but in the end they only do damage because they don’t tell us what they are really up to. Of course that’s that typical Catholic satanic panic but in a way it refers to the subconscious mind. For example a tiny bit of self-hatred, fear or doubt that all people have, might lead a person into a completely wrong direction. A tiny bit of jealousy might cause a person to harm someone. I know relationships in which a person completely destroyed the self-confidence of the partner, just because there was a subconscious fear of loss. I’d say most evil in this world is done because people don’t understand their own motives.

The guru thing is of course problematic too because very few people are able to be a guru without hidden motives of power, domination, money, ego or whatever. Maybe the one who does not want to be a guru and sees it as a burden is the best guru. The good news is that I found that writing those things down in a forum like this with thoughtful, nice and well-educated people is a good way to reflect and get external reactions from different mindsets.
“Granny Weatherwax was not lost. She wasn't the kind of person who ever became lost. It was just that, at the moment, while she knew exactly where SHE was, she didn't know the position of anywhere else.”
(Terry Pratchett, Wyrd Sisters)
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Nefastos
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Re: Sex

Post by Nefastos »

Speaking of jealousy & gurus in the same passages, you wouldn't believe the amount of problems esoteric teaching faces in this particular regard.

Since my own personal shortcomings lie in other parts of my psyche than in jealousy, it has been a shock to notice how huge a problem this thing is in practice. Jealousy of intimate occult teaching most likely surpasses jealousy in matters of sexual love. It would be a long thread of its own just to list these problems, but should I do that, I'll bet you'd see better my point why jealousy should just be killed off in the budding whenever possible. It is a constant problem to face jealousy in students because of some other student's apparently more intimate connection with esoteric guides, to face esoteric guides' jealousy of the circles they guide, to face one's partner's jealousy on occult protegees, &c. &c. Because jealousy is so little spoken about in a pejorative manner, most people actually never stop to think whether they are acting in extremely bad way; they take it as natural.

Like you sor Cerastes so aptly put it:

Cerastes wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 10:46 pm
I’d say most evil in this world is done because people don’t understand their own motives.

After one admits that "Alright, I am jealous of you, could you perhaps take it as a form of affection, while I try not to succumb to that alluring feeling of intimacy as a possession" – in that point a great battle has already been won. People can take whatever stance they together see as best. But most often we do not even notice our own selfish emotions as negative & destructive. And that is the point where the black dragon rages & tears hearts apart.

Ave wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 9:42 pm
I settled for the usual "everyone/ everything is your guru" -approach.

&
Cerastes wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 10:46 pm
The good news is that I found that writing those things down in a forum like this with thoughtful, nice and well-educated people is a good way to reflect and get external reactions from different mindsets.

I too tend to think that it is usually best to find one's guru in some more abstract context, by being open with one's shortcoming and thus finding balance in a good social context that is interested in all-encompassive development. Since there's no Official School For Verified Wise Gurus to be found, it would be most likely that one's occult teacher would be some kind of madman or, in the better scenario, some kind of a one trick pony for spiritual problems.

In this month's chapter of our Psychology and Alchemy reading group, the author passingly mentions how in his patient's mind his own position as his doctor in psychology (soul-doctrine) and the patient's inner principle of intelligence, dreamt as Mephistopheles, practically become as one. This is exactly how things happen in all guru systems: one's inner genius & the outer genius of the psychopompic master or teacher become as one, or at least their outlines get very blurry. The guru system has not gone away altogether, but is seen e.g. in such psychological treatment. And even though such a system is more safeguarded than an occult student's relationship to one's guru, it is still extremely flammable and subtle. Not every doctor of psychology is a giant of understanding and empathy, plus having a well-balanced mind free of unilateral approaches.

Ave wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 9:42 pm
(Sorry for lending your color, tried to erase it but didn't succeed.)

No problem. It can be done by simply leaving out all "color=#" parts of the text.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Re: Sex

Post by Cerastes »

Nefastos wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 12:51 pm
Not every doctor of psychology is a giant of understanding and empathy, plus having a well-balanced mind free of unilateral approaches.
Sometimes I tend to think that psychological knowledge may even be a hindering when it comes to real empathy because it is a way to flee from emotions.
It‘s like an occultist who knows every book on occultism but has absolutely no occult progress.
Of course that‘s not true for everyone, only for people who have the tendency to escape in intellectualism. In fact, one of the most genious doctors of psychology I know is terrible with people. I still like him, he is brilliant but apart from transferring intellectual information, he has no idea how to react properly in social situations so people don't like to be around him.
-
Another possibly way to gaie somthing positive from jealousy is that it can be a good marking point for a insecurity of some sort.
For example I never was jealous in a relationship. My lack of jealousy was even called naivety from friends because I don‘t like to control anyone and I don‘t care if my partner is visiting a female friend over the weekend, for example. But I can be very jealous and envious regarding my older sister who is extremely skilled and talented in everything. So obviously there is an insecurity in my own skills I can work on.
But hardly anything is as hard to admit as ugly, greedy jealousy.
“Granny Weatherwax was not lost. She wasn't the kind of person who ever became lost. It was just that, at the moment, while she knew exactly where SHE was, she didn't know the position of anywhere else.”
(Terry Pratchett, Wyrd Sisters)
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