Sex

Putting together ones life with the modern world.
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Nefastos
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Re: Sex

Postby Nefastos » Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:49 am

Cerastes wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 8:04 pm
How is the demand for sexual abstinence justified in theosophy?


How long answer would you like? :lol: This question was both the question of my youth as said, and also an important part of both of my bachelor's and master's theses.

In a nutshell: There was the quite long Victorian tradition of shame right in the culture, and a very long Gnostic, Neoplatonist, Rosicrucian &c. esoteric tradition of regarding all kind of sexuality as profane and opposite to occult process. Blavatsky's own Tibetan tantric tradition held monastic values of celibacy in high esteem. In her Esoteric instructions it is stressed many times that the "sexual centers" are used only by dugpas i.e. black magicians, who are personifications of all evil and corruptness. Blavatsky also didn't consider herself as a woman, but disdained women as inferior to men. (So Faxneld's claim to make her an early feminist is actually quite problematic, or then feminism means something political which is opposite to actual appreciation of womanhood.)

Cerastes wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 8:04 pm
I know this only from Catholicism and the Catholic Church is the best proof of what perversion the required sexual abstinence can lead to.


Exactly. It would be so great if they would approach these subjects of actual horrible problems more and leave to lesser notice the problematic condemning of contraception &c. But this is utopia as we know.

Cerastes wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 8:04 pm
I believe that there simply can not be a set up of collective rules that are valid for all and the most important thing is to find an own way that is not linked to shame or guilt.


That is very true. As said, one's temperament makes it extremely hard for us to see the differing points of our fellow men (and women), regarding this subject most of all. Having learned this, I try to remember that many things that for me seem to be wholly impossible, can be the best possible and most enjoyable for many others. This also has been clarified to me in the years of the Star of Azazel: I have learned from my sisters and brothers that many approaches to sex that I wouldn't have dreamed might work, let alone help in one's occult process, can be optimal – for some temperaments, in some situations. All you need is love, I guess!

Cerastes wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 8:04 pm
Indeed, you are obviously not a very Finnish Finn. :)


I keep feeling that I am here only for a small trip, to do some work for my masters "back home" in Italy and India :lol: Of course, should I ever actually move there, in this body at least, I would most certainly find that there is much more Finn in me that I have been able to admit.

Cerastes wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 8:04 pm
I always had the feeling of somehow not belonging to the culture I’m born in. (I’m not even sure if this is the right planet or galaxy). Therefore, I enjoy traveling to other countries to observe different cultures because the high variety of temperaments is somehow comforting and it makes me feel a little less like an Alien.


Theosophical occultism teaches that not only the souls migrate from another planets (although this takes tremendous amounts of time), that it is, under some extremely rare circumstances, possible for a soul to move from another form of evolution to another: e.g. for an elemental spirit to be born as human. Personally I see that all of us are actually amalgams from all the different kingdoms of nature, though; so it is more about what part is at the top at the moment, so to say. Here's a song for you!

Cancer wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:32 am
I've had an imaginary female "alter ego" for a long time, also independently of sexual fantasies, and can't quite even remember how "she" came to be. She has a name and a kind of parallel life on the reverse side of mine. Sometimes I fancy myself, as the concretely gendered being I am during waking hours, as a dream she is having of herself as male.


Before I came to see more clearly some very masculine traits of mine (with the help of an understanding woman, of course!), I sometimes joked that I am a "lesbian born in male body", for I loved so much the femininity both in myself & in the others, but had hard time being with men & appreciating what I considered as masculine behaviour. These things often boil down to personal experiences, naturally... I had had the luck of seeing many more wise & strong women than men. Brotherhood has helped me much in this, also: I have seen that there are many wise & loving men.

Since I enjoy playing role playing games and especially the creation of characters in them, I have noticed that the games which demand violence (like almost every single video game RPG there is) are much easier for me to play as a female character: It is in most cases uncomfortable for me to fight even in a game, but in case I have been given a possibility to create an alter ego who is female, such an "outward tenderness" (as I see the archetypal femininity) makes it more fun.

Cancer wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:32 am
While most of these thoughts are light-hearted (or distractedly deep in the manner of song lyrics), I’ve at times felt very frustrated with — even disgusted by — the concept of masculinity. Unable to sleep, I just spent the night trying to formulate a long and personal post about the causes and manifestations of my misandry (...)


I would be very interested to discuss misogyny & misandry (and their opposites) in another thread about genders, if you and/or others ever feel so inclined.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Insanus
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Re: Sex

Postby Insanus » Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:54 pm

Cerastes wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 8:04 pm
Insanus wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:45 pm
I used to be very interested in this "purely physical" years ago and (partly accidentally) managed to turn the usual psychoenergetical associations on their heads: intimacy and warmth caused me great distress (I remember taking a warm shower feeling like bugs crawling on my skin) and many self-destructive things caused the feeling of peace and relaxation. Even "physical sex" was without any so-called physical pleasure, just distance. In those days I remember "feeling" emotions without emotions as some sort of pressures and intensities in the subconscious/and/or/body. I don't think this fakirism did any good for any kind of development. but it taught me anything can be sexualized and the experience of de-sexualized sex sort of proved (to me) that physical sex also needs to be sexualized in order to be sex.
I can understand this quite well but it would have caused me difficulties to formulate it so clearly. It feels a bit like the emotions of another person you are able to notice them, but do not –really- feel them. For a while I avoided every psychological closeness to the world and this kind of disconnectedness creates a horror on it's own. The act of physical sex in this state of mind was more like a sports activity.
There's also another side to this coin. I don't think this state of disconnectedness is always "lost" as much as it is just simply extremely aggressive in some way. "Sex" is never sex. The creation of certain horror can be secretly a very passionate thing even when it's not conscious. Maybe they are passions "beyond the pleasure principle" like Freud put it, and dissatisfaction, pressure, inner emptiness and so on are (or at least can be seen as) also sexual even though they don't bring pleasure, energy or anything generally considered "positive". Sometimes I feel like forced abstinence is the "dirtiest" form of sexual perversion because it sacrifices intimacy and union for lack of them and takes secret pleasure in rejecting that pleasure. This is also very interesting and mysterious in my opinion, especially contrasted with the idea that desire implies lack. To desire lacking of something might be to focus and purify the desire itself and to "desire desire" actually gets expressed in disinterest, which perhaps is the reason why even bored or inexpressive looks can be extremely seductive. Hmm, this is getting weird.
Myrkky sattuu siihen jolla on haava.
obnoxion
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Re: Sex

Postby obnoxion » Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:25 am

Nefastos wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 12:33 pm
obnoxion kirjoitti: ↑I gingerly connect sexuality with the dark side of Christ

How does Monick see Christ, exactly? Can he be likened to the "inner master" of ours, and thus seen at the source of para-sexual (manasic or magical) energy?
I doubt I can say how he sees Christ exactly. What he tells in his book is his inner development from mostly irreligious (his father was a mason, but that was always very secretive) home in a small prevalently Lutheran community to Episcopal Priest, then to a Jungian Analyst, and lastly ending up a sort of Gnostic. The idea of Christ is in a flux, and I must stress I am not yet finnished with the book.

This practically life long process begun when as a young man in the seminar, his teacher tells him that Grunewals's Christ is marked with Syphilish. The idea of Christ having on him the markings of a venereal disease hits him like a lightening, and becomes a slowly working but eventually life changing event. Encounters with Grunewald's Christ help facilitate this process of transpersonal fantasy, that seems to me to be examplary of Gnostic "conversion" that incorporates instantenous and the gradual aspects of the process.

Perhaps I can answer more fully when I'm done with the book. But already I feel it is healing book; the sort of book one can really only grasp by reading it.
One day of Brahma has 14 Indras; his life has 54 000 Indras. One day of Vishnu is the lifetime of Brahma. The lifetime of Vishnu is one day of Shiva.
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Cancer
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Re: Sex

Postby Cancer » Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:07 pm

Insanus wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:45 pm
[...] I don't really like even the word "sex(uality)": it's commonly too weighted towards instinct and genitals and all the normative stuff to really point at the phenomenon accurately. I feel this is at least one of the reasons why we see the LGBT+ list grow and grow, and new genders arising constantly: the need to see sexuality in "materialistic" paradigm kind of thinks that the water changes because of a new bottle. Maybe it's over-simplification -I don't want to be blunt or provoke anyone unnecessarily- but I really liked Zizek's point that human sexuality is simply the "+" in LGBT+.
I think this thought as such points in the right direction. It could be used as a theoretical basis for the actual widening of the understanding of sex and gender. It is however worth stressing how important just the "growing list", the constellation of concrete identities, is in this process. Any one person can't channel the whole spectrum of sexual and gender expression; there are always preferences, limits. Because of this, the abolition of harmful norms must happen by introducing alternative ones, little by little. (Constant) questioning of ones gender / sexuality is of course fun and even vital for individual development - but only as long as it's done voluntarily, from within rather than without. And the latter is still what mostly happens to e.g. gay and trans people: they experience unceasing pressure to confirm to something alien. So the high suicide rates etc. are no big wonder. Like, imagine every new person you meet potentially thought your attraction to women is disgusting / a "phase" / endlessly funny. Considering the beautiful & articulate things you write about your experiences of sexual dissociation and self-destructiveness, I guess something similar might actually have happened to you.

(I don't know how much of this is self-evident, by the way. It took me a really long time to get a grasp of LGBT+ issues, so I thought this brief discussion might not be completely useless.)
Nefastos wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:49 am
Since I enjoy playing role playing games and especially the creation of characters in them, I have noticed that the games which demand violence (like almost every single video game RPG there is) are much easier for me to play as a female character: It is in most cases uncomfortable for me to fight even in a game, but in case I have been given a possibility to create an alter ego who is female, such an "outward tenderness" (as I see the archetypal femininity) makes it more fun.
Masculine violence does indeed carry some extreme baggage, even in fiction. Perhaps it feels more instinctual, and therefore less often justified by circumstance or cause, than violence committed by women (who are assumed to have good reasons for doing something supposedly against their nature). I also like playing as female characters in violent (that is, almost all) video games. In real life, it's quite difficult for me to trust any man who I know to be especially capable of violence: I always feel that the only purpose of that kind of training is to assert power over others.
Nefastos wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:49 am
I would be very interested to discuss misogyny & misandry (and their opposites) in another thread about genders, if you and/or others ever feel so inclined.
Why not. It could be nasty, though :cry: Or maybe not on this forum. Essayist and fellow misandrist Antti Nylén once wrote that there seems to be something aggressive about his trade as such. I always think of that when anger and abhorrence turn into inspiration for writing.
Tiden läker inga sår.
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Re: Sex

Postby Insanus » Wed Jun 19, 2019 4:32 pm

Cancer wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:07 pm
Nefastos wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:49 am
I would be very interested to discuss misogyny & misandry (and their opposites) in another thread about genders, if you and/or others ever feel so inclined.
Why not. It could be nasty, though :cry: Or maybe not on this forum. Essayist and fellow misandrist Antti Nylén once wrote that there seems to be something aggressive about his trade as such. I always think of that when anger and abhorrence turn into inspiration for writing.
I'm also interested.
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Re: Sex

Postby Cerastes » Wed Jun 19, 2019 4:56 pm

Cancer wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:32 am
Not a bad choice. My preferred kink is Swedish, though.
Swedish sounds somehow cute and Norwegian sounds like people are singing.
The best thing about Finnish is that the word „ja“ is used so often. For German ears it sounds like Finns always agree with everything.

Insanus wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:54 pm
There's also another side to this coin. I don't think this state of disconnectedness is always "lost" as much as it is just simply extremely aggressive in some way. "Sex" is never sex. The creation of certain horror can be secretly a very passionate thing even when it's not conscious. Maybe they are passions "beyond the pleasure principle" like Freud put it, and dissatisfaction, pressure, inner emptiness and so on are (or at least can be seen as) also sexual even though they don't bring pleasure, energy or anything generally considered "positive". Sometimes I feel like forced abstinence is the "dirtiest" form of sexual perversion because it sacrifices intimacy and union for lack of them and takes secret pleasure in rejecting that pleasure. This is also very interesting and mysterious in my opinion, especially contrasted with the idea that desire implies lack. To desire lacking of something might be to focus and purify the desire itself and to "desire desire" actually gets expressed in disinterest, which perhaps is the reason why even bored or inexpressive looks can be extremely seductive.
Dissatisfaction as a passion?
Hmm, that actually sounds quite plausible, because in fact, every human need can be „used“ this way. The more we wander down the Maslow pyramide, the more obvious this gets. There are people who stop eating and feel a satisfaction by dissatisfying this physiological need. Could it be that this kind of satisfaction is more like a self- vampirism? In other words the energy that causes (sexual) tension is taken from the own body, soul, spirit while, for example, a healthy love-life is creating a tension with the outer world by keepting the state of connectedness?
In this case the desired desire would be an internal process that may as well be linked to Freuds Thanatos.

Nefastos wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:49 am
How long answer would you like? :lol: This question was both the question of my youth as said, and also an important part of both of my bachelor's and master's theses.

In a nutshell: There was the quite long Victorian tradition of shame right in the culture, and a very long Gnostic, Neoplatonist, Rosicrucian &c. esoteric tradition of regarding all kind of sexuality as profane and opposite to occult process. Blavatsky's own Tibetan tantric tradition held monastic values of celibacy in high esteem. In her Esoteric instructions it is stressed many times that the "sexual centers" are used only by dugpas i.e. black magicians, who are personifications of all evil and corruptness. Blavatsky also didn't consider herself as a woman, but disdained women as inferior to men. (So Faxneld's claim to make her an early feminist is actually quite problematic, or then feminism means something political which is opposite to actual appreciation of womanhood.)
Great, so you are the right person to bombard with questions about this? :D
This is an interesting topic because I find it very important to understand the cultural and historical context. That women were considered sexus sequior I think was normal at this time. In Catholicism I was taught that Satan tries to use sexual (lust) feelings to seduce a man into sin, by using the woman as a medium that triggers those feelings. So women are basically a tool of Satan. Actually being a tool for Satan was very helpful for a positive view on Satanism but I suppose this is not the result my grandma was hoping for.
I wonder how so many different cultures and religions all came to the conclusion that sex is evil/satanic/profane/black magic and where this was rooted in. Do you think this emerged with the rise patriarchy?
Insanus wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 4:32 pm
Cancer wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:07 pm
Nefastos wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:49 am
I would be very interested to discuss misogyny & misandry (and their opposites) in another thread about genders, if you and/or others ever feel so inclined.
Why not. It could be nasty, though :cry: Or maybe not on this forum. Essayist and fellow misandrist Antti Nylén once wrote that there seems to be something aggressive about his trade as such. I always think of that when anger and abhorrence turn into inspiration for writing.
I'm also interested.
#Metoo
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Nefastos
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Re: Sex

Postby Nefastos » Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:30 pm

To hear is to obey: Misogyny & Misandry thread.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Re: Sex

Postby Tulihenki » Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:18 am

First I say that I'am a man and bisexual.

I have been battling with my sexuality all my life more or less because it's passionate nature has constantly teared me different directions - never settling or never ending it's fire. I remember when I was 10-12 years old every night before I went to sleep I thought how would I feel kissing girls of my class. Since that time I have used my imagination a lot in similar visions. When I was a teenager classmates turn to celebrities. Also when I was a teenager I was trying to suffocate my interests to boys. Sadly I don't remember those things very clearly: how I thought to suffocate and why.

Before I go too chatty I'll get to the point or area that has been tearing me. When I'm with a woman I feel very traditional man: I'm protective, safe and my masculinity arises. Feels like my whole body is more straight and uplifted. I excersises more, my ideas may be more harsh especially when it comes to politics. I get radical ideas that I don't wanna get but they come and so on.

Then there comes different phase occasionally and that happens if I'm interested in some man or anyhow think more men in generally: I become sort of fierce woman, full of fire and passion, my body is acting differently as I don't wanna lift heights at all but I wanna stretch and be more cat like with my moves. I wanna seduce men, especially married ones, some kind of whore-aspect takes me, but I have not been with married men - only dreaming. I'm more sensitive and my political ideas turns away from harsh things. I become more understanding and loving while being very erotical.

Now that I look this text it is astonishing that I'm actually in quite good balance when it comes to working and generally life in society. I think that I can learn lot with this phase alternating but I see also possibilities of downfalls.

I'll gladly take advises or book recommendations.
obnoxion
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Re: Sex

Postby obnoxion » Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:48 pm

Tulihenki wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:18 am
Now that I look this text it is astonishing that I'm actually in quite good balance when it comes to working and generally life in society. I think that I can learn lot with this phase alternating but I see also possibilities of downfalls.

I'll gladly take advises or book recommendations.
I fail to see the problem here. The two tendencies seem reamrakably complementary. (And the erotic shiftiness of the politics seem to correspond quite nicely to my own idea of the phenomenon - that there actually is no such thing as politics.)
Erotic whims tend to be combustable by definiton, don't they? And erotic passions generally don't form obstacles to leading a reasonably adult life.

Unless your situation cause you suffering or serious fear of loosing control of your life...?
One day of Brahma has 14 Indras; his life has 54 000 Indras. One day of Vishnu is the lifetime of Brahma. The lifetime of Vishnu is one day of Shiva.
Tulihenki
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Re: Sex

Postby Tulihenki » Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:51 pm

obnoxion wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:48 pm
Tulihenki wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:18 am
Now that I look this text it is astonishing that I'm actually in quite good balance when it comes to working and generally life in society. I think that I can learn lot with this phase alternating but I see also possibilities of downfalls.

I'll gladly take advises or book recommendations.
I fail to see the problem here. The two tendencies seem reamrakably complementary. (And the erotic shiftiness of the politics seem to correspond quite nicely to my own idea of the phenomenon - that there actually is no such thing as politics.)
Erotic whims tend to be combustable by definiton, don't they? And erotic passions generally don't form obstacles to leading a reasonably adult life.

Unless your situation cause you suffering or serious fear of loosing control of your life...?
Luckily no such fears or even suffering right now. I have been suffering because of my sexuality, but I feel that not anymore. I'm not usually very rational focused person but maybe I try to analyze here too much and seek problems.

But I'm glad I posted that message. I was hesitating a little bit. Hard to find right words and very personal area. Thanks for your post!

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