Sex

Putting together ones life with the modern world.
User avatar
Nefastos
Frater
Posts: 3433
Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 10:05 am
Location: Helsinki

Sex

Postby Nefastos » Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:29 am

While talking about the possibilities of different kinds of relationships, sodalis Obnoxion expressed some good thoughts about the possibilities of relationships that seemingly work without sex, and discussion branched a bit. Leaving that another thread mainly for discussing about different belief systems – as in religious or philosophical approaches – how about we talk more about sexuality in general here?

In my own White aspect working, which works under Venus, sexuality is very important part of the work. It gives great possibilities, it presents great challenges, and like Pekka Ervast said, it makes possible the lowest hells and highest heavens for a human being. And I am pretty sure he meant also, if not mostly, the sublimated and not evident physical forms of sexuality.

While Obnoxion said that seemingly sexless relationship can be a very positive experience, I side here with sister Cerastes and say that personally I have found that idea as non possumus, impossible (to this day, that is). The psychoenergetical temperaments vary, and this particularly is one of the topics where different types have hard time trying to understand the types very unlike them; because regarding sex, things are not only psychological or only physical, but both. This energetical aspect is the one of "linga" (literally "phallic") principle in our sevenfold constitution, which works through our dense physical bodies, and which is partly psychic and magical in nature.

How do you see sex in you life, or life in general? Is it a meaningful part of your occult lives, or do you consider it as profane?
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
obnoxion
Sodalis
Posts: 1768
Joined: Tue May 25, 2010 7:59 pm

Re: Sex

Postby obnoxion » Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:55 pm

Good to see that you already got the topic up, fra Nefastos! I was planning to start this topic with a somewhat lengthy quote. Now I think I will share it anyway, but I will not discuss it unless it sparks interest. It is from Eugene Monick's "Evil, Sexuality, and Disease in Grunewald's Body of Christ" (Spring Publications, 1993, pages 29 - 30).

Before the quote, I want to share another Monick's idea which I share; that "...sexuality ranges far beyond explicit physical intimacy" (ibid. page 32). Now, I would argue that the actual genitalia would in such a case have central and energetic role to play, but rather as a vital symbols (sort of psycho-physical correspondences to electrical conductors) than physical mediums of intimacy. As examples of such relationships I would mention the many romantic relationships among the pre-teens, and the romantic relationships among the elderly.

Anyway, here's the quote on sexuality that I mentioned earlier. I think it is wonderfully put, but, please, do ignore it if it doesn't seem like anything interesting. It is from the pen of a Jungian analyst, so that should give you an idea of the context:

Human beings need a close and living connection with their sexuality. I gingerly connect sexuality with the dark side of Christ because Christian tradition so places it, when Christ and sexuality are connected at all.The influence of Christianity, whether or not one follows it, has unconsciously permeated the attitudinal air of Western society... Human sexuality as instinct is basis of and inseparable from creativity, intimacy, and ecstasy, all of which, in their permutations, are simultaneously concrete and metaphoric. Sexuality opens into transcendence, to the "more than human", to the divine. It is, as [Mircea] Eliade has written, a hierophany, a manifestation of the sacred. That is its power.

Sexuality is obviously as threatening as it is promising. Revealed in the desirous sideward glance, the fleeting, half-hidden glimmer of interest, the suggestive remark, the inkling of desire is the suggestion of raw desire. Sexuality is loaded with implication even in its tiniest hint of presence; the continuum from titillation to abuse is intimated in every erotic hint. Instinct's darkness manifests itself in sexuality in a spectacular and terrifying manner. Instances of sexual brutality, selfishness, drivennes and hurt, of lives empty, stunted, and shattered are so omnipresent in life that no reader will need an examole in this work. The issue is connecting this kind of evil with the presence of the divine.
One day of Brahma has 14 Indras; his life has 54 000 Indras. One day of Vishnu is the lifetime of Brahma. The lifetime of Vishnu is one day of Shiva.
User avatar
Polyhymnia
Soror
Posts: 181
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:20 pm

Re: Sex

Postby Polyhymnia » Sat Jun 15, 2019 10:07 am

obnoxion wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:55 pm


Human beings need a close and living connection with their sexuality. I gingerly connect sexuality with the dark side of Christ because Christian tradition so places it, when Christ and sexuality are connected at all.The influence of Christianity, whether or not one follows it, has unconsciously permeated the attitudinal air of Western society... Human sexuality as instinct is basis of and inseparable from creativity, intimacy, and ecstasy, all of which, in their permutations, are simultaneously concrete and metaphoric. Sexuality opens into transcendence, to the "more than human", to the divine. It is, as [Mircea] Eliade has written, a hierophany, a manifestation of the sacred. That is its power.
This quote very much speaks to me. I have lived the last three decades very much disconnected from my sexuality, but I think I grew up this way because I was born and raised under the heavy influence of Christianity. I was never taught of a "dark side of Christ", therefore I never thought of its possibility. I'm very much intrigued by sex as a gateway to transcendence, but my disconnect makes that path very unclear. I was aware of sexuality from a very very young age, but I think it was just repressed so aggressively and often that as I grew older, all sexual feelings were accompanied by feelings of guilt. This followed me into my teen years where I tried my hardest to use sex as a tool (along with drugs and alcohol) to fill what was empty inside of me. That guilt was further cemented by a couple of aggressive sexual acts that happened against my will along with my parents never accepting the fact I'm attracted to both males and females. In the other thread I commented I could imagine a physically sexless relationship, and this is true. The physical act of sex is just not something I've ever been truly comfortable with because I've never been able to shake the negative feelings attached.
Sex and I have a complicated relationship. I'd like to try and heal so I can learn how to incorporate it into my magical life, but I feel it's a long road. I start counselling hopefully in the fall with a local sexual assault centre, so I suppose this is the very beginning of this part of my journey. I'll be following this thread in depth to read all your insight and wisdom from your own personal experiences. Thanks for allowing me to be vulnerable.
"Limited love asks for possession of the beloved, but the unlimited asks only for itself." -Kahlil Gibran
obnoxion
Sodalis
Posts: 1768
Joined: Tue May 25, 2010 7:59 pm

Re: Sex

Postby obnoxion » Sat Jun 15, 2019 11:02 am

Polyhymnia wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 10:07 am
I start counselling hopefully in the fall with a local sexual assault centre, so I suppose this is the very beginning of this part of my journey. I'll be following this thread in depth to read all your ins
There must be a massive need for such work, because from my experience such traumas are surprisingly prevalent and deeply destructive. As it happens, I've met with numerous people with sexual traumas in my adult years, and before that I could never have imagined how terrible and long-lasting effects it can have. At its worst, it reminds me of a paradox of a murder where the victim is still sort of left alive.

So this brings to mind the second paragraph of the longer quote in my previous post. Sexuality is threatening, and what is a glimmer in one eye, might be felt like a buther's knife to other. Because in mere innuendo is included the beauty and pleasure, the collective and private guilt, the selfishness and the abuse - and the transcendence, even the theophany.

Now, to summarise what I wrote in the previous discussion that got deleted by my misunderstanding, I related my sexuality to the Prince's song "Kiss" from 1986, especially the first lines: "You don't have to be beautiful to turn me on". What I mean is, I can get excited by almost any adult person, but I stongly prefer females. And so sexual tension is not for me a must in a relationship, because that I can conjure up (at least for my self). I feel I could be in a sexless relationship, and by that I mean a relationship without intercourse and such. Of course there should be some kissing and huging and that sort of things.

I find there is a bunch of things that are equally or more pleasurable than an orgasm, and as I am perfectly able to provide one for myself, the prospect of sexual gratification is not high on my list when meeting people. In teenage it was different, because back then I was driven for the experience. I have been very happily married with children for almost ten years now, and I feel I am living the best years of my love life right now. My wife has nothing to do with my spiritual interests, and that has been just fine.

I tend to idealize the concept of interfaith marriage, and I think that religious backrgound has close ties to sexuality. I think one would be wise not to introduce unnecessary impossibilities to prospect romances, because they take away from the inner openess.

For me, sexuality is also a deeply spiritual metaphor, a primal dynamic. So I prefer to express my spirituality in gendered expressions. I see this language as rather being tied to the symbolic propensitieses of the physical genitalia, than to cultural stereotypes.
One day of Brahma has 14 Indras; his life has 54 000 Indras. One day of Vishnu is the lifetime of Brahma. The lifetime of Vishnu is one day of Shiva.
User avatar
Cerastes
Soror
Posts: 195
Joined: Fri May 25, 2018 10:31 pm

Re: Sex

Postby Cerastes » Sat Jun 15, 2019 5:20 pm

For me, sex in a relationship is very important, a high sexual tension as well as the physical act. In fact, I do not even necessarily want a relationship but renouncing sex would be very difficult in the long run.
(I'm well aware of how horribly unromantic the sounds)

Anyway sexual tension creates a wonderful creative, powerful drive and I would not want to miss this. As I developed spirituality more and more, sexuality turned from a purly physical act to a energetical link between the physical and spiritual. Interestingly the kind of person who I’m sexually interested in changed too. Still I’m highly selective with my partners, because there are very specific traits that attract me sexually and others just don’t. In rare cases, even a good book can create a sort tension that almost feels sexual. I always thought that whoever wrote such a book must have put a piece of him/her into this that somehow attracts me. And -even if it sounds weird- there are really attractive words, especially in foreign languages. Spanish has a lot of sexy words for example.
Polyhymnia wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 10:07 am
I was aware of sexuality from a very very young age, but I think it was just repressed so aggressively and often that as I grew older, all sexual feelings were accompanied by feelings of guilt. This followed me into my teen years where I tried my hardest to use sex as a tool (along with drugs and alcohol) to fill what was empty inside of me. That guilt was further cemented by a couple of aggressive sexual acts that happened against my will along with my parents never accepting the fact I'm attracted to both males and females. In the other thread I commented I could imagine a physically sexless relationship, and this is true. The physical act of sex is just not something I've ever been truly comfortable with because I've never been able to shake the negative feelings attached.
I believe if guilt is too present in childhood, people tend to turn out very self-destructive. Sex can be extremely (self)-destructive and at the same time it can be uplifting. A high potential can always act in both directions and I’m sorry to hear that it went the wrong way for you.
It requires a lot of strength to talk openly about this and most people never manage to find that strength. I wish you all the best for your recovery.
“Granny Weatherwax was not lost. She wasn't the kind of person who ever became lost. It was just that, at the moment, while she knew exactly where SHE was, she didn't know the position of anywhere else.”
(Terry Pratchett, Wyrd Sisters)
User avatar
Nefastos
Frater
Posts: 3433
Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 10:05 am
Location: Helsinki

Re: Sex

Postby Nefastos » Sun Jun 16, 2019 12:33 pm

Sexuality is such a cornucopia that I don't wonder that the discussion grew into several interesting directions at once.
obnoxion wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:55 pm
I gingerly connect sexuality with the dark side of Christ

How does Monick see Christ, exactly? Can he be likened to the "inner master" of ours, and thus seen at the source of para-sexual (manasic or magical) energy?

obnoxion wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:55 pm
Human sexuality as instinct is basis of and inseparable from creativity, intimacy, and ecstasy, all of which, in their permutations, are simultaneously concrete and metaphoric. Sexuality opens into transcendence, to the "more than human", to the divine.

It has been customary for many a tradition – as well as the lack of tradition, the path of profanity as expressed by the Church of Satan, for example – to see in sex mostly the carnal, animal aspect of man. I consider this to be a bit strange, since without the uplifting, spiritual or at least astral Fascination, there wouldn't be much left of the glamour of sex. If we take it only as a physical act of flesh, such a macabre dance is likely to produce more body horror or boredom than anything else. To get the "purely physical" pleasure, much non-physical is often needed. Of course, orgasm or ejaculation (which to me are quite different things) can be attained by purely physical means, but that is something I mainly do not consider as much "sex" as some mechanical bodily function. (We may compare to pain: What would pain be, without fear which wants us to avoid it? Just an abstraction, and thus no pain at all. I consider pleasure the same way: what is pleasurable in pleasure is not physical sensation, but its energetico-astral counterpart. Thus all physical comes back to the mind substance or chitta qualities of linga sharîra.)

Polyhymnia wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 10:07 am
...use sex as a tool...

Although you didn't mean this, it also brought to my mind the much talked "sex magic". As discussed in my little book Kybelen vaunut (The Chariot of Kybele), I wrote about using sex as a tool in magic, to accomplish something else, as a harmful thing. Rather, all sexuality is magical and all magic is sexual, but in a way that it is sacred and should be held as such. In every sexual union, it is a play of Shiva and Shakti. Even in homosexual unions, the polar pairs remain sublimely present. And in heterosexual sex, it is not said at all that the male would always be Shiva and the female Shakti: our polarities are swapped all the time in titillating ways.

I think that using sex as an instrument for something else is in most cases very frightful thing to do; similar of using one's adoration of God as instrument for something else. Still, there are always exceptions. For example, I do not think that making either of these as one's profession would necessarily be a harmful thing – the world needs both priests and prostitutes, at least as long as we are so far from being perfect beings and not in need of such mediators and helpers of the sacred.

Cerastes wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 5:20 pm
For me, sex in a relationship is very important, a high sexual tension as well as the physical act. In fact, I do not even necessarily want a relationship but renouncing sex would be very difficult in the long run. (...) Anyway sexual tension creates a wonderful creative, powerful drive and I would not want to miss this.

As I have said elsehwhere, I consider it one of my greatest blessings and most awful curses at the same time that this tension is present all the time. There is never actual rest, not a moment of leisure, but all is fire & action, since this demanding presence of (sexual & mystical) awe is constant. This creates many consequences. For example, in a relationship I feel the constant need of active observation of another: it can be romantic physical tenderness, sexual union or play, deep talk, or hopefully, all of these. It is very strange for my temperament to see pairs who never seem to kiss passionately, or debate about thousand philosophical things, or who even seem slow to smile to each other. Heh; this is one of the many reasons I love to visit Italy: when coming there, I instantly see people embracing, kissing, fighting (sometimes with love, sometimes without). It is energetical, there is beautiful friction which is so important aspect of this "universal sex". The Finnish slow and sombre attitude seems as something very strange indeed. Of course, it has its very good parts, like solemn honesty.

When I was younger all the occult & religious teachings I tried to live through absolutely demanded sexual abstinence. This created a hell for me; the feeling of constant burning, since I tried to kill out or at least calm down my inner fire and could not. Many people seem to be able to live without sex, but just in a few days I become a psychic wreck and cannot sleep anymore. The feeling is very physical (as well as psychological & astral), and I consider that this is what Plato meant when talking about some people "who are like trees laden heavy with fruit, and thus in constant state of frenzy, because of the exuberance of seed formed in their spine". That depicts accurately how I have felt every day during all my life ever since puberty.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
User avatar
Ave
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2018 6:15 pm
Location: Hämeenlinna/ Tampere

Re: Sex

Postby Ave » Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:26 pm

Very interesting, thank you for sharing you all. Like Obnoxion, I regard sex as deeply spiritual metaphor. To me it's also also an act of divination played out in flesh and blood.

Monicks quote lead me to think about the heaven and hell in sex. And why I have had my share of both. It's the potential of heaven that paves the way to the hell. I think that people intuitively know the divine potential of sex, and if that potential is left un-actualized it feels (and it is) like hell. "Bad" sex is the opposite of divination at this mundane level. The opposite of divination is the experience of substantial and infinite separateness. "Bad" sex has very earth-bound flavour to it, indeed. But can one also make good use of "bad" sex spiritually? I think so. To really desire heaven, I have to roam hell. To know crace, I have to be fallen away from it.

(I don't know where I lay.)
If you want to reborn, let yourself die.


https://matkamerenpohjaan.blogspot.com/
User avatar
Insanus
Frater
Posts: 926
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2010 7:06 am
Location: Helsinki

Re: Sex

Postby Insanus » Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:45 pm

Nefastos wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 12:33 pm

It has been customary for many a tradition – as well as the lack of tradition, the path of profanity as expressed by the Church of Satan, for example – to see in sex mostly the carnal, animal aspect of man. I consider this to be a bit strange, since without the uplifting, spiritual or at least astral Fascination, there wouldn't be much left of the glamour of sex. If we take it only as a physical act of flesh, such a macabre dance is likely to produce more body horror or boredom than anything else. To get the "purely physical" pleasure, much non-physical is often needed. Of course, orgasm or ejaculation (which to me are quite different things) can be attained by purely physical means, but that is something I mainly do not consider as much "sex" as some mechanical bodily function. (We may compare to pain: What would pain be, without fear which wants us to avoid it? Just an abstraction, and thus no pain at all. I consider pleasure the same way: what is pleasurable in pleasure is not physical sensation, but its energetico-astral counterpart. Thus all physical comes back to the mind substance or chitta qualities of linga sharîra.)
Well said. I used to be very interested in this "purely physical" years ago and (partly accidentally) managed to turn the usual psychoenergetical associations on their heads: intimacy and warmth caused me great distress (I remember taking a warm shower feeling like bugs crawling on my skin) and many self-destructive things caused the feeling of peace and relaxation. Even "physical sex" was without any so-called physical pleasure, just distance. In those days I remember "feeling" emotions without emotions as some sort of pressures and intensities in the subconscious/and/or/body. I don't think this fakirism did any good for any kind of development. but it taught me anything can be sexualized and the experience of de-sexualized sex sort of proved (to me) that physical sex also needs to be sexualized in order to be sex. That's also why I don't really like even the word "sex(uality)": it's commonly too weighted towards instinct and genitals and all the normative stuff to really point at the phenomenon accurately. I feel this is at least one of the reasons why we see the LGBT+ list grow and grow, and new genders arising constantly: the need to see sexuality in "materialistic" paradigm kind of thinks that the water changes because of a new bottle. Maybe it's over-simplification -I don't want to be blunt or provoke anyone unnecessarily- but I really liked Zizek's point that human sexuality is simply the "+" in LGBT+.
Myrkky sattuu siihen jolla on haava.
User avatar
Cerastes
Soror
Posts: 195
Joined: Fri May 25, 2018 10:31 pm

Re: Sex

Postby Cerastes » Mon Jun 17, 2019 8:04 pm

This is a very interesting discussion.
Nefastos wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 12:33 pm
When I was younger all the occult & religious teachings I tried to live through absolutely demanded sexual abstinence. This created a hell for me; the feeling of constant burning, since I tried to kill out or at least calm down my inner fire and could not. Many people seem to be able to live without sex, but just in a few days I become a psychic wreck and cannot sleep anymore.
How is the demand for sexual abstinence justified in theosophy?
I know this only from Catholicism and the Catholic Church is the best proof of what perversion the required sexual abstinence can lead to.

I believe that there simply can not be a set up of collective rules that are valid for all and the most important thing is to find an own way that is not linked to shame or guilt.
As I’m naturally more drawn to the left hand path I never took the concepts of sexual abstinence into consideration but I tried to turn sex into something purely physical, which is almost the same.
Nefastos wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 12:33 pm
For example, in a relationship I feel the constant need of active observation of another: it can be romantic physical tenderness, sexual union or play, deep talk, or hopefully, all of these. It is very strange for my temperament to see pairs who never seem to kiss passionately, or debate about thousand philosophical things, or who even seem slow to smile to each other. Heh; this is one of the many reasons I love to visit Italy: when coming there, I instantly see people embracing, kissing, fighting (sometimes with love, sometimes without). It is energetical, there is beautiful friction which is so important aspect of this "universal sex". The Finnish slow and sombre attitude seems as something very strange indeed. Of course, it has its very good parts, like solemn honesty.
Indeed, you are obviously not a very Finnish Finn. :)
I always had the feeling of somehow not belonging to the culture I’m born in. (I’m not even sure if this is the right planet or galaxy). Therefore, I enjoy traveling to other countries to observe different cultures because the high variety of temperaments is somehow comforting and it makes me feel a little less like an Alien.

Insanus wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:45 pm
I used to be very interested in this "purely physical" years ago and (partly accidentally) managed to turn the usual psychoenergetical associations on their heads: intimacy and warmth caused me great distress (I remember taking a warm shower feeling like bugs crawling on my skin) and many self-destructive things caused the feeling of peace and relaxation. Even "physical sex" was without any so-called physical pleasure, just distance. In those days I remember "feeling" emotions without emotions as some sort of pressures and intensities in the subconscious/and/or/body. I don't think this fakirism did any good for any kind of development. but it taught me anything can be sexualized and the experience of de-sexualized sex sort of proved (to me) that physical sex also needs to be sexualized in order to be sex.
I can understand this quite well but it would have caused me difficulties to formulate it so clearly. It feels a bit like the emotions of another person you are able to notice them, but do not –really- feel them. For a while I avoided every psychological closeness to the world and this kind of disconnectedness creates a horror on it's own. The act of physical sex in this state of mind was more like a sports activity. It was very destructive (not only self-destructive as I'm a probably more outgoing in temprament) and it sure left it's scars. For this reason I agree with you. This is nothing I would take into consideration for spiritual development or any other kind of development.
“Granny Weatherwax was not lost. She wasn't the kind of person who ever became lost. It was just that, at the moment, while she knew exactly where SHE was, she didn't know the position of anywhere else.”
(Terry Pratchett, Wyrd Sisters)
User avatar
Cancer
Posts: 235
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 5:45 pm
Location: Helsinki

Re: Sex

Postby Cancer » Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:32 am

I often feel an excess of sexuality, almost to a disturbing degree. I get turned on by and — if you'll allow such a metaphor — as people of several genders. To categorize a bit, there is at least a very strong tendency in me to regard men from what I feel could be the viewpoint of a straight woman. I've had an imaginary female "alter ego" for a long time, also independently of sexual fantasies, and can't quite even remember how "she" came to be. She has a name and a kind of parallel life on the reverse side of mine. Sometimes I fancy myself, as the concretely gendered being I am during waking hours, as a dream she is having of herself as male.

While most of these thoughts are light-hearted (or distractedly deep in the manner of song lyrics), I’ve at times felt very frustrated with — even disgusted by — the concept of masculinity. Unable to sleep, I just spent the night trying to formulate a long and personal post about the causes and manifestations of my misandry, but it would have become endless and made me feel exposed. So I’ll settle for saying that I’ve ended up equating masculinity with insensitivity to the degree that these days even a specifically masculine intelligence often seems like stupidity to me.
Cerastes wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 5:20 pm
In rare cases, even a good book can create a sort tension that almost feels sexual.
Oh yes! A book lover never goes alone to bed.
Cerastes wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 5:20 pm
Spanish has a lot of sexy words for example.
Not a bad choice. My preferred kink is Swedish, though.
Tiden läker inga sår.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest