Why to breed

Putting together ones life with the modern world.
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Heith
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Re: Why to breed

Post by Heith »

Vavrinec wrote:I understand these thoughts in Mr. Nefasto's books are not dogmatic ideas, but, doesn't that imply to have sex without producing a child?
While indeed let's hear what the author says -if I understand correctly, the Catechism is quite an old text, and sometimes Nefastos rephrases his texts in ways that they are more easily understood by the reader- still of that particular part I too read it as you interpret it. I think that he means that we should not reproduce just out of "habit" or because it is expected of us.

Welcome to the forum Vavrinec, I hope to hear more posts from you!
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Thelithiz
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Re: Why to breed

Post by Thelithiz »

I thouht also that purifying the impulse means liberation from eternal pursuit of pleasure, which is natural at some point but often exaggerated and results only frustration and emptiness, since just pleasure cannot be the goal of life... but let's let Nefastos explain Himself ;)
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Nefastos
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Re: Why to breed

Post by Nefastos »

Oh my, I only now noticed here's a question addressed to me particularly in this discussion. (To make sure your questions reach the individual member you have questions for, please use this forum instead.)
RaktaZoci wrote:
Vavrinec wrote:I'm new to this forum & after reading many posts on this subject, I have a question concerning 'breeding'. In The Catechism of Lucifer it states, in Commandment 6, 'Purify the Lust, abandon formbreeding sexuality.' I understand these thoughts in Mr. Nefasto's books are not dogmatic ideas, but, doesn't that imply to have sex without producing a child? I would go further to add that as Gnostics, shouldn't that desire for sex be culled & put towards our lust for knowledge? Why would we want to be distracted from our pursuit of Truth? Doesn't that fulfill the 6th Commandment in the Catechism?

I'll let Nefastos answer himself, since he will have a more clearer vision of the subject (being the author and all), but on a personal view I'd see this commandment in relation to the goal of purifying the creative impulse. In modern world the sexual drive has been harnessed to serve very material and hedonistic need, but if, and when, the essence of this impulse can be revealed it is one of the most powerful energies a human being can possess. Then again, with great power comes great responsibility, as we all have learned from Spider Man. ;)


Brother RaktaZoci and his friendly neighbourhood mentor are right, the "Commandment" (let us keep in mind that the CoL is foremostly a parody of the Lutheran Catechism) concerning sex & use of the creative force is about transmutation & piety that are needed when we use any great & subtle forces within ourselves.

To answer in brief to the question I underlined from Vavrinec's post:

It can, and is supposed, to be read in both ways. For many people, leaving the petty, selfish, hedonistic "lust" as a motivating principle of sex does not necessitate asexuality. For example, I am much into sex myself, and see erotic way of thinking, feeling, and being in an intimate relationship as sacred. When done right, it is the opposite of "selfishness", and teaches sacrifice, love, warmth, creativity, and helps one to both open up and (which is at least as important) to share & widen one's psychic energies.

The question of eros vs. occultism demanded much of my time in my youth (because of the Blavatskian teachings I started my own studies), and after that, because of the brotherhood &c. I have had a tremendous possibility to talk with many different people about sex, intimacy, magic & the practices of ascension. Thus the answer is basically: Different people do have very different erotic energetical natures (essential principles which are not only psychological), and thus the only demands we can make about one's sexuality are the ethical ones:

1) If one begets children, that is kind like a superior sacrifice, which must be done with utmost care. When one has children, then the children necessarily come, must come, first. This can be the greatest asset or the greatest hindrance for one's occult studies, and also something similar for the world.

2) From an occultist it is demanded that he transmutes his energies: separate channels must be put under holistic use, and under love, all should be ultimately collected into one sacred living. It is wholly up to the person does this – in this instance – "purifying of lust" include lessening or even leaving sexuality completely out, or should it be about making sexuality something that is not "form-breeding", i.e. that does not add into chaotic tumult in worlds both microcosmic (his own process) and macrocosmic (the already over-populated planet). Sex can be used without drawing energy down from the sacred uses, begetting children can be used as a dharmic, virtuous way of life. As a matter of fact, for the most of us either one of these two – or both – are better practices than asexuality. It is much more common that asexuality means that someone's erotic channels are locked or blocked, instead of being "ascended" by complete love and/or magic. BUT there really are all types of people, and sexuality is one of the deepest root energies with which we work, so one should be extremely careful not to make demands from it, either from oneself, or from the others. Of course, finding such an equilibrium to both follow one's own path concerning Eros and at the same time being faithful to the Triple Key (of ethics & strive for ascension) is often hard. But such is the life of an occultist.

Even though my answer was not so brief after all, this is just scratching of the surface of this vast & extremely interesting subject.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Cerastes
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Re: Why to breed

Post by Cerastes »

Thelithiz wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2016 11:42 am
I long for a quite isolated lifestyle and solitude: it doesn't work if one has children.

I have heard a lot of comments for and against reproducing in the past x years, and I am sure you too have heard all of them. It's a very heated conversation sometimes, as the topic feels close to many people's heart.

Instead of focusing my energy on reproduction and raising offspring, I will focus that energy on my own spiritual/artistic advancement, and trying to improve those things and beings that I find to be meaningful. It's often said that raising children is the ultimate act of selflessness, and while I can well understand this argument, I think that to not reproduce can also be just that. One lets go of quite many things.

I find that intellectually speaking, reproduction in the current state the world is in, is never a choice that is done intellectually but always driven by an emotion and/or want. I loathe the idea of losing control of myself like that. But that is my temperament, and someone feels differently. That is fine. I don't care to convince anyone. There has been a few times that I have fleetingly thought of these things, and felt that want. But it's not my intellect speaking, only my biology. I choose not to fall prey to instinct.

My decision is made knowingly, joyfully, and with pride. I hope I will never disappoint myself in changing my mind on the matter.
This made me smile because I was about to write almost the same thing.
I never found a logical argument to reproduce and for some reason I'm just not into children as much as other women. Eveyone told me this is going to change when I'm in my 30s. So far it didn't. The only reason to get a child would be the fear of regretting my decision one day when I'm to old to get pregnant and ending up jealous and frustrated. That is a horrily egoistic and poor reason to get a child, so I won't.

In the other hand I know some extremly destrucive and selfish persons who turned their lifes around for the better when they got an unplanned child.
“Granny Weatherwax was not lost. She wasn't the kind of person who ever became lost. It was just that, at the moment, while she knew exactly where SHE was, she didn't know the position of anywhere else.”
(Terry Pratchett, Wyrd Sisters)
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Heith
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Re: Why to breed

Post by Heith »

Red Bird wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 9:14 pm
Heith wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2016 11:42 am
I long for a quite isolated lifestyle and solitude: it doesn't work if one has children.

I have heard a lot of comments for and against reproducing...
This made me smile because I was about to write almost the same thing.
I never found a logical argument to reproduce and for some reason I'm just not into children as much as other women. Eveyone told me this is going to change when I'm in my 30s. So far it didn't. The only reason to get a child would be the fear of regretting my decision one day when I'm to old to get pregnant and ending up jealous and frustrated. That is a horrily egoistic and poor reason to get a child, so I won't.

In the other hand I know some extremly destrucive and selfish persons who turned their lifes around for the better when they got an unplanned child.
I began to read your post and the quoted part seemed awfully familiar to me. So I checked, and I wrote that but instead the forums claim Thelithiz had. Very strange! On this I've corrected the author to be me. It's good to spot these things as our forums may still be acting a little weird.

My opinion on the matter of reproducing is still the same as before, two years after I wrote the quoted post. I can well understand what you mean by these kind of comments that people make "you will change your mind", like one would be a undeveloped being incapable of understanding what is best in life. I'm quite bored with this kind of comments and find them to be extremely impolite and completely tactless. I also find that it is very difficult to get unbiased information from doctors when one inquires about the procedure and possible side effects of sterilization. Let's just say that I am thankful for every year that I am older that the possibility of getting pregnant becomes smaller, regardless of how careful one is.

As to your comment to "not into children as much as other women", I'd say that the majority of the women I know either do not want a child, or feel undecided on the matter. But perhaps this is due to what kind of people I know more than anything.
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Cerastes
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Re: Why to breed

Post by Cerastes »

Yes, I was actually quoting you.
Well...the forum moves in mysterious ways.
-
Unfortunately a lot of people see children as a social decision, not as a private choice. My grandma told me it is the woman’s duty to society and a lot of older people here still secretly think like that. I do have some close family members that are really angry at me for this decision and because I refuse to answer questions about the reasons. Answering those questions would imply that I owe an explanation to the questioner. So my reaction is mostly grumpy and sarcastic. I would never ask a man why he doesn't get his girlfriend pregnant either. That would be equally unacceptable.

Okay, enough complaining about society for today.
There are only ~ 15 years to go until menopause. :mrgreen:
“Granny Weatherwax was not lost. She wasn't the kind of person who ever became lost. It was just that, at the moment, while she knew exactly where SHE was, she didn't know the position of anywhere else.”
(Terry Pratchett, Wyrd Sisters)
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Malja
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Re: Why to breed

Post by Malja »

Speaking for myself, I think it´s better to leave the reproduction to those who are more capable of providing a good life to their offspring. Especially considering the environmental situation.
This view is based on a quite narrow, common sense perspective to life and perhaps I use it to justify my own "selfish" reasons why not to have children.
But since I have no idea how my dharma relates to having children, I must base my decisions about procreation to this mixture of common sense and "selfishness".
And because I don´t know about anyone else´s dharma either, I don´t judge the decisions others make concerning reproduction.

I believe unconditional love is the deepest yearning in all of us and having children is probably the most simple, though perhaps not easiest way to experience that.
Yet I´d like to believe that it´s possible to experience unconditional love by learning to love yourself and this is my goal.
By focusing on loving myself instead of spending lots time, effort and money in parenting, I can avoid all the risks of reproduction, including giving my children any ugly inheritance.
About so called selfish reasons, considering how I lack energy and focus in my everyday life, I don´t expect having children would make the situation any better.
Therefore I believe parenting would be a serious hindrance to my endeavors and I´m not particularly happy about the possibility that I might end up being tied to a disabled or otherwise very challenging child to the rest of my life.
And of course there is the possibility that in case of separation, I´d be also tied to the child´s father and his future spouses the rest of my life.
Challenges make you grow, yes, but you can at least try to choose your battles.
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Re: Why to breed

Post by Ave »

Malja wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 2:17 pm

Therefore I believe parenting would be a serious hindrance to my endeavors and I´m not particularly happy about the possibility that I might end up being tied to a disabled or otherwise very challenging child to the rest of my life.
And of course there is the possibility that in case of separation, I´d be also tied to the child´s father and his future spouses the rest of my life.
Challenges make you grow, yes, but you can at least try to choose your battles.
This kind of realism/pragmatism is important when one is pondering the possibility of breeding. Parenting is -like you wisely stated- a serious hindrance, among other things.

My intuitive answer to the "Why to Breed" - question would be: "There's no reason." But that rings true only on the general level, for the reasons are very subjective and intimate even.

I've been given the answer to the "why" only after I became a mother. As a maiden I had no clue about the why, I just wanted to be impregnated, body and soul. I never been so serene as I was carrying my first child. I loved being pregnant and giving birth. The parenting part of the journey is the the soul-birth of the mother and the child, and it requires a deepest down dive to the unknown waters of collective, familiar and individual sub-consciousness. Not all rainbows and sunshine there, I must tell! Being a parent has a huge transformative potential...

Being a parent is a gift that keeps on giving - and a toll that keeps on taking.
I wasn't planning to share my personal beliefs about life and death with my children for long time (not until they'd ask, if they ever would...). But my oldest child started asking these questions as a 5 yo. Things like "when are you going to die", "when I'll die", "what happens when one dies" etc. Answering her, I was forced to answer myself the way I never done before.
If you want to reborn, let yourself die.


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Boreas
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Re: Why to breed

Post by Boreas »

I was quite selfish before I had my children. Alas, the marriage ended quite unhappily, but being a father has made me grow as a person very much, and my daughters are the one bright thing in my life. By loving my own daughters has made me love children universally. It is a horrible world they are inheriting.

To be honest thought, I couldn't bear family life and routines, it has consequences that almost forcibly makes one to adapt to bourgeois "ordinary life" which is not for me. Even going to school parent nights is horrible, so I'm very content of being a weekend father with less family responsibilities. I'm not that good in supporting them and their mother financially either, it's a good thing that they manage well in their New family life with a good step dad. The only real reason I Started my own business was to be able to support them, and that also ended up horribly with me being hospitalized and ending up with a huge monetary dept.

I look forward very much when my daughters come into teen age and start to think themselves more, so I can start telling them honestly my own worldview and thought of the world, thus far I have only tried to love them unconditionally and support all their endeavours. My only real fear is that they inherit my illness.
The torch is known to every living man by its pale, bright flame; it always burns where princes sit within.
Ave
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Re: Why to breed

Post by Ave »

Boreas wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:23 am
To be honest thought, I couldn't bear family life and routines, it has consequences that almost forcibly makes one to adapt to bourgeois "ordinary life" which is not for me.
Yes, this has proven to be a quite of a challence also to myself! Being a divorcee has provided me the opportunity to lead a kind of a double life: the one being a life of a devoted mother. And the one being a life of an adventurous woman. Ofcourse these lifes leak into each other, but the mother has always the last say. I've also come to the conclusion that having children has tamed me a bit - and in my case that's only a good thing.
Boreas wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:23 am
Even going to school parent nights is horrible,
As my oldest child is entering the larger society I have - for the first time - realized that I'll have to make friends with certain kind of conformity. I don't want my child to suffer because her mother is "a freak". For the first time, I've pondered that does my lifestyle hinder my children from "fitting in". It's regarded normal that families have TV:s, other electronics, trampolins, massive amount of toys etc. Jung stated that "to be normal is the ideal aim for the unsuccesfull." Yet this truth - among other truths - has to be hidden from the children (until they are gradually mature enough to encounter them).
Boreas wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:23 am

so I'm very content of being a weekend father with less family responsibilities. I'm not that good in supporting them and their mother financially either, it's a good thing that they manage well in their New family life with a good step dad. The only real reason I Started my own business was to be able to support them, and that also ended up horribly with me being hospitalized and ending up with a huge monetary dept.

I look forward very much when my daughters come into teen age and start to think themselves more, so I can start telling them honestly my own worldview and thought of the world, thus far I have only tried to love them unconditionally and support all their endeavours. My only real fear is that they inherit my illness.
You appear to be truly a loving father, your children are lucky to have you! I'm not aware what kind of illness you are facing, but I hope you'll find console. I've also feared having a bad influence on my children, as I'm loaded with heavy light and darkness. Only time will tell what will the overall toll of my parenting on my children. I've been told being a good mother, but I'll never quite get over just how bad a good mother can be.
If you want to reborn, let yourself die.


https://matkamerenpohjaan.blogspot.com/
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