Why to breed

Putting together ones life with the modern world.
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Thelithiz
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Why to breed

Postby Thelithiz » Thu Aug 18, 2016 4:34 pm

I don't mean to be annoying or stupid (again) with my questions, and I like children much, but: Why Should We Make Children At All?
What could be more selfish and cruel, than to follow that animal instinct? Or is it only an ultimate sacrifice? And being not having a child may be seen as a selfish thing by some people also... But what do you think about these things, of have you thought at all?
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RaktaZoci
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Re: Why to breed

Postby RaktaZoci » Thu Aug 18, 2016 4:38 pm

Interesting synchro here; my first post on the Finnish forum was quite similar to this one. :) I'll answer more thoroughly when I have a decent time..
die Eule der Minerva beginnt erst mit der einbrechenden Dämmerung ihren Flug.
-Hegel
Vanadís

Re: Why to breed

Postby Vanadís » Fri Aug 19, 2016 11:05 am

Well, sometimes you do not *make* children, they just happen ;) (Based on what I know about many occult friends who really did use contraception). I lived past 15 years with thinking I will never have kids. My reasons for that was quite materialistic: there's enough people in the world, I can give my inheritance to organization who works to safe the planet, new kids will eat the world's food and ragnarök happens etc. But I have had always cats. And they eat lots of meat. Big dog can actually make much bigger carbon pawprint than having a cityjeep (kaupunkimaasturi). I was also a Vegan before. Then I realized I do not want to safe animals in that way that in the Veganic world there would be no family farms and countryside with cows anymore. (No, I don't believe in Vegans who keep that amount of cows as a Vegan pets, that rare species like Lapland's cow would survive). I have been raised near animals and nice farms. It's okay to me.

I had also egoistic reasons for not having kids. And I think healthy egoism is ok, so I'm not saying it in a bad sense. I wanted to travel much and write books, make art and do things by myself. But I traveled over 10 years around the globe, I published my first book and learned much about living with a different mindset; mindset on sharing and growing together with brotherhood and people. I also came into RZ's family, where there was already a kid. That gave me whole new kind of perspective what is to live with kids. After having a baby I've been positively surprised how much it have been giving to my Great Work and changed me as a person. But I also think I find kids okay, because I'm closer to 40 than 30 years old, and I've done so much in my life without kids.

I also believe there's spiritual side, who is having kids and where they are "sended". For example in our case people start seeing visions or dreams about me having a baby, and I laughed so much onto their faces "not gonna happen, I'm using contraception" :D Luckily I was wrong. There's been so much laughter and funny moments after having kids. And I still have time to do my own stuff.

I really underline how my guideline (or yogic Niyama) in life is: Mind your own business. Do what Thou wilt. That's why I believe having kids or not is a personal choice. For me I'd say abortion is wrong and I would say it would be a murder, but for someone else it may be not wrong and I'm okay if my friend is doing an abortion and going to support them.
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RaktaZoci
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Re: Why to breed

Postby RaktaZoci » Fri Aug 19, 2016 10:35 pm

As a reference to my old post on the Finnish forum, which I mentioned, my goal was to raise this same question and inquire others opinions on it. Fosforos (atleast the older version) was quite strict on the matter of selfproduction and I'd recall some lines mentioning that the most selfish act that one could commit would be to produce a child to this world. As a father this obviously tickled my senses. I may be mistaken, but I have the feeling that the Blavatskyan theosophical doctrine had quite the similar tone to it(?) Hopefully Nefastos can ratify (or deny) my suggestion here, since he is much more of an expert on this field.

On the matter, personally, I have somewhat differing opinions. For the most part, I do agree that there are too many of us on this planet and we, as the human race, are depleting the Earth's recources far too fast. However, I do love my own children with all my heart and would fight for their life if need should arrise. I'd recall that when the subject was last discussed we came to an overall conclusion that to reproduce merely due to the HABIT of it as a natural function would be a bad thing, but then again, everyone does make their own choices in life (for the most part).

I agree with Vanadis on the idea that in some cases children are souls that are sent to you for a reason. This idea I believe came from Pekka Ervast (among others). The main focus here, is that these souls are sent to you so that you could serve them the best you can. Not to exploit or hurt them, but to show them the way in the name of love and ethics.
die Eule der Minerva beginnt erst mit der einbrechenden Dämmerung ihren Flug.
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Thelithiz
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Re: Why to breed

Postby Thelithiz » Wed Aug 31, 2016 11:42 am

Thanks! This was what I meant:
Nefastos wrote:Ihanteenani oli tyhjä maailma, johon kukaan ei enää syntyisi. Onneksi kuitenkin kykenin yhä enenevässä määrin oivaltamaan, että asia ei suinkaan ole näin yksinkertainen. Sielut kaipaavat niitä kokemuksia mitä syntymästä fyysiseen elämään saadaan, eikä karmisesti ole mahdollista sammuttaa planeettaa sen enempää ydintuholla kuin fyysisellä pidättäytymiselläkään, koska sielut haluavat syntyä & elää näissä rajoittumissa, jotka aivojemme tietopohjalla edustavat eksistenssiä sinänsä.
But how can we know it is so? How can we know if purpose of living is to ”fill the earth” and refine ourselves untill there is only one species or just one big awareness? I don't believe anyone knows, these are always matters of believing. May be the souls want and need to incarnate in order to make progress. It's a nice thought that souls are sent to us, but Who sents them then? Procreation is a deed, not refraining from it, right?

It may be a good and complete self-sacrifice to give to a child one's time, money, effort, body and health. To serve and raise someone for hope that he/she could have a better life. A way to serve others which gives our at least feeling of purpose. Of course a child may give joy and wisdom and transformation, and experiences that only a mother is able to have. Mother-child relationship must be the most tight and close bond that we can have.

As well it can be seen as self-sacrifice to spare the world from overloading, and save the soul(s) from agony of living. (Honestly I cannot say I would be actually grateful to my parents for their unthinkingness, though I try.) For my opinion there is too much people at the same time making war and so.

I think sex can be seen as a practice of becoming one (with other, weirdness, one's other sides) and so. And if from that becomes a child, it is like failing in that practice (from which we can come to "preservation of seed" what I did not meant). Instead of becoming one there only forms another separate lonely being tormented by contrarieties. But probably procreation is our purpose here. I'm just talking without knowing much of that :)

Besides there is already way too much children without a home or parents. Almost always I have wanted to give a home one of those. In that I don't see any shelfishness, and I'd spare myself from worse compunction. So I also think personally what to do. I'm afraid of all the pain and illness, death and shame, loss, work and all the sorrow and suffering which I would give a new human being. I doubt I could bear the responsibility and do I want to advance genes of mine. I have no money and I'd like to do something else first in my life (and soon I am too old). But what if I miss something out......
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Heith
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Re: Why to breed

Postby Heith » Thu Sep 01, 2016 10:32 am

As such is a personal decision, I will here only mention of my personal path.

I have decided already years ago that I will not reproduce. My reasons for this are mainly connected to my deep-ecology views (although back then I didn't know of such a movement), but I won't write more of that as it may be seen as political. For me the decision does not feel political, but rather ethical, and esoteric. I wish to leave no trace like that in the world, that someone continues with my genes here. I wish to disappear. It is the same thing when I go in the woods: I don't want that anyone can see that I was there, like I don't want to see that anyone was there. I long for a quite isolated lifestyle and solitude: it doesn't work if one has children.

I have heard a lot of comments for and against reproducing in the past x years, and I am sure you too have heard all of them. It's a very heated conversation sometimes, as the topic feels close to many people's heart.

Instead of focusing my energy on reproduction and raising offspring, I will focus that energy on my own spiritual/artistic advancement, and trying to improve those things and beings that I find to be meaningful. It's often said that raising children is the ultimate act of selflessness, and while I can well understand this argument, I think that to not reproduce can also be just that. One lets go of quite many things.

I find that intellectually speaking, reproduction in the current state the world is in, is never a choice that is done intellectually but always driven by an emotion and/or want. I loathe the idea of losing control of myself like that. But that is my temperament, and someone feels differently. That is fine. I don't care to convince anyone. There has been a few times that I have fleetingly thought of these things, and felt that want. But it's not my intellect speaking, only my biology. I choose not to fall prey to instinct.

My decision is made knowingly, joyfully, and with pride. I hope I will never disappoint myself in changing my mind on the matter.
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Nefastos
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Re: Why to breed

Postby Nefastos » Thu Sep 01, 2016 3:04 pm

Very good thoughts. Instead of nodding enthusistically to several different directions, I will add some lesser points.
RaktaZoci wrote:Fosforos (atleast the older version) was quite strict on the matter of selfproduction and I'd recall some lines mentioning that the most selfish act that one could commit would be to produce a child to this world. As a father this obviously tickled my senses. I may be mistaken, but I have the feeling that the Blavatskyan theosophical doctrine had quite the similar tone to it(?) Hopefully Nefastos can ratify (or deny) my suggestion here, since he is much more of an expert on this field.


Even more than in Fosforos, my anticosmic ideas were put bluntly in the first edition of Magna Mater (which was published with Fosforos in 2004 - I think you might have meant that). Some of that I fixed in the said book's second edition, since I felt that just stressing the Gnostic view point there wasn't going to help anyone, but would just add to the problems of separatistic dualism instead.

About the Blavatsky's ideas, she did not actually write about those things much, although she was a Buddhist, so her idea about trying to get everyone freed from material incarnation was of major importance. And since she considered herself as a he, just for a short period to be forced to live in a frail (as she saw it) female psychology, she didn't give much thought about procreation. Sex itself was evil – even the evil - for her, though.

RaktaZoci wrote:I'd recall that when the subject was last discussed we came to an overall conclusion that to reproduce merely due to the HABIT of it as a natural function would be a bad thing, but then again, everyone does make their own choices in life (for the most part).


That is the one I consider as the key point here, along with the use of the Triple Key, of course. (Meaning here, for example, giving the most honest trust and love to one's child, if such is had.) Habit and fear are the two most profane, most poor reasons to do (or not to do) anything at all.

Nefastos wrote:Ihanteenani oli tyhjä maailma, johon kukaan ei enää syntyisi. Onneksi kuitenkin kykenin yhä enenevässä määrin oivaltamaan, että asia ei suinkaan ole näin yksinkertainen. Sielut kaipaavat niitä kokemuksia mitä syntymästä fyysiseen elämään saadaan, eikä karmisesti ole mahdollista sammuttaa planeettaa sen enempää ydintuholla kuin fyysisellä pidättäytymiselläkään, koska sielut haluavat syntyä & elää näissä rajoittumissa, jotka aivojemme tietopohjalla edustavat eksistenssiä sinänsä.


I'll just add the translation of that older comment of mine:

"My ideal was an empty world, where no one would be born anymore. Luckily, I gradually came to understand that the thing was not so simple. Souls yearn after the experiences what can be gained from being born to physical life, and it is not karmically possible to extinguish the planet with nuclear destruction or physical abstinence, for the souls want to be born & live within those boundaries, which with the basis of knowledge of our brain represent existence itself."

Thelithiz wrote:Procreation is a deed, not refraining from it, right?


In a way I agree with you, but I also believe that all things done or undone are deeds i.e. choices that are made, whether consciously or unconsciously. There is no "neutral field", just different karmas to be chosen from & played out, be it well or poorly. And since sex is one of human being's basic needs, it can be even more easy to "procreate by leaving some thing (like contraception) undone" than procreate by choosing to do so. So either one - having or not having children - can be seen equally as a chosen deed.

Vanadís wrote:Well, sometimes you do not *make* children, they just happen ;) (Based on what I know about many occult friends who really did use contraception).


Indeed. I too am one of those "who really wanted to be born", in a way that is almost comical if I could relate the details here. It is even more comical when considering how I have always felt towards life in matter (that it is both absurd and absurdly painful, "eine Krankheit des Geistes", as said Novalis).
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
Vavrinec
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Re: Why to breed

Postby Vavrinec » Thu Sep 22, 2016 6:19 pm

I'm new to this forum & after reading many posts on this subject, I have a question concerning 'breeding'. In The Catechism of Lucifer it states, in Commandment 6, 'Purify the Lust, abandon formbreeding sexuality.' I understand these thoughts in Mr. Nefasto's books are not dogmatic ideas, but, doesn't that imply to have sex without producing a child? I would go further to add that as Gnostics, shouldn't that desire for sex be culled & put towards our lust for knowledge? Why would we want to be distracted from our pursuit of Truth? Doesn't that fulfill the 6th Commandment in the Catechism?
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Thelithiz
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Re: Why to breed

Postby Thelithiz » Thu Sep 22, 2016 8:45 pm

I've been thinking also that becoming adult (or old :)) means changing from reciever to caretaker of others. That one notices there are other people (and animals), younger or still in need of little support/advice. It kind of changes one’s whole perpective of world. At some point it is one's turn to be in a giving position, which is actually learning and growing as well. No matter is one a parent or not. And we are "made" to both recieve and give, only another of these is not possible.
Vavrinec wrote:Why would we want to be distracted from our pursuit of Truth?
Raising and making children may perhaps help us to find some truth. Also sexuality can be very instructive too. But as said, these don't have to be part of everyone's path.
And welcome to talk, V!
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RaktaZoci
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Re: Why to breed

Postby RaktaZoci » Thu Sep 22, 2016 9:41 pm

Vavrinec wrote:I'm new to this forum & after reading many posts on this subject, I have a question concerning 'breeding'. In The Catechism of Lucifer it states, in Commandment 6, 'Purify the Lust, abandon formbreeding sexuality.' I understand these thoughts in Mr. Nefasto's books are not dogmatic ideas, but, doesn't that imply to have sex without producing a child? I would go further to add that as Gnostics, shouldn't that desire for sex be culled & put towards our lust for knowledge? Why would we want to be distracted from our pursuit of Truth? Doesn't that fulfill the 6th Commandment in the Catechism?
I'll let Nefastos answer himself, since he will have a more clearer vision of the subject (being the author and all), but on a personal view I'd see this commandment in relation to the goal of purifying the creative impulse. In modern world the sexual drive has been harnessed to serve very material and hedonistic need, but if, and when, the essence of this impulse can be revealed it is one of the most powerful energies a human being can possess. Then again, with great power comes great responsibility, as we all have learned from Spider Man. ;)
die Eule der Minerva beginnt erst mit der einbrechenden Dämmerung ihren Flug.
-Hegel

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