Incel - personal perspectives

Putting together ones life with the modern world.
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Nefastos
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Re: Incel - personal perspectives

Post by Nefastos »

Peregrina wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 4:46 pm
Luckily I can't run from this challenge anymore :D

Yes, and yes! :lol: Kind like what brother Smaragd said --

Smaragd wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 8:45 pm
making an effort to lift the swamp monster out many times enough would eventually make words enough.

-- I don't know if the words can ever be actually enough, but words (a lot of words, different discussions, and most of all, ongoing discussion with oneself & possible partner/s) are definitely needed to advance in this particular maze. It takes turns, life changes, and one hopefully always discovers both new depths & new horizons in the occult Self and Other.

The extremely occult & psychological challenges that is one's romantic & erotic relationship with others is something that can rarely be cast in anything absolutely solid. Maybe with extremely lucky karma – or slow temperament – that might be possible. So I think that the problem is not any particular model of relationship per se, but the possibility to take things as granted too easily. "I like this so it must be right for me", or "this is how my life has gone so this might be how things are", or "this is how my moral teachings go so this is how I must bend myself, however it feels intuitively" are all quite wrong. So, good luck with your quest! In case polyamoric relationships work better than it seems to me, so much the better. The Master knows I'd personally have enough love & semen to give to several partners, if I (and them) could learn to see that as ideal. But as for now, I still tend to think the model of monogamy as the most uplifting one. We shall see!
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Nefastos
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Re: Incel - personal perspectives

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Kavi wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 12:26 am
I have to apologize for I re-read the chapter and forgot that Afsaneh is referring to earlier study and book by Fatima Mernissi "Beyond the Veil". Nevertheless I might be quite a bad candidate to talk about this topic but I leave a citation just for interest.
p.132
"Fatima Mernissi’s Beyond the Veil (1975) offered a bold proposition about the structural work of the veil in Islamic societies.
Mernissi argued that Christianity and other Western philosophical traditions, including Freudian psychoanalysis, presumed a passive female sexuality.
Islamic doctrine, on the other hand, was based on the assumption of an active female sexuality.
If it is not contained and controlled, this powerful force would cause social chaos (fitna) and threaten men’s civic and religious lives.
The veil and the closely related institutions of gender segregation are the mechanisms through which Muslim societies contain and control female sexuality.
This proposition is predicated on the heterosexual presumption that active female sexuality is eternally searching for a phallus.
If it were not, institutions of gender segregation would hardly contain and control it.
Quite the contrary! Moreover, if we do not assume the naturalness of heterosociality, any more than the naturalness of heterosexuality, if we consider heterosocialization as a social achievement, a learned performance, then we need to radically rethink the veil and gender segregation as institutions for regulation of heterosociality and prevention of unlicensed heterosexuality"

I started to read The Thousand and One Nights, in Waldemar Brögger's humongous edition. This more (even though not quite) complete version of the original tales delightfully retains the tales' strong erotic aspects. Reading the famous frame of Sheherazad who goes on telling the tales in which people tell new tales, and so on, your quotation came to my mind, Kavi. For this frame tale of the Thousand and One Nights (or The Arabian Nights) goes like this:

* * *

There is a king (a qaliph) who is going to meet his brother, also a king. But he forgets something when leaving, and returns instantly, finding his queen having sex with her black slave. Qaliph draws his sword and kills both. When arriving to his brother, he is sad until finding out that this other king's queen behaves exactly in the same way, also having sex with her black slave at the first instant the king himself is gone. He is consoled, but the second qaliph tells that they should leave their kingdoms until they can find a person even more miserable than they are. When they are travelling, they meet a djinni who has sealed her wife into a chest under seven locks, and who keeps this chest in the bottom of the ocean. But when he is asleep, the woman from the chest instantly demands sex from the two kings, or else she will have the djinni kill them both. The kings obey, and leave. Also the second king is now consoled, since even the djinni, who was more powerful than they and made extreme measures to guard his wife, was not able to do that. The qaliphs head back home, and also the second one kills both his wife & servants who might be able to have sex with her. After this he makes his vizier to bring him each night a new wife, who in the morning gets killed, in order not to be able to cheat him. And the thousand and one nights are the nights his new wife number 109 575 (after 300 years of killing each wife after one night) tell the qaliph tales in order to keep herself alive. After this she is pardoned, having borne three sons to qaliph during these three years.

* * *

So yes, it is clear that also this view "was based on the assumption of an active female sexuality", and the utmost horror of it. The fear of woman seems to be the man's fear of power (of otherness). To me as a man from very matriarchal family line this sounds extremely absurd, but I guess it wouldn't be so absurd should my family be patriarchal. How these psychological pressures are played out can be intensely pleasurable, but it is miserable to see how easily they bring about physical & psychic violence. And I do not mean violence from any particular religion or gender towards others, but the different forms of violence in all the different cultures, sexual archetypes, and so on.

Now when we live the time where criticism is so extremely strong and often praised form of communication, it is however easy to forget how long strides we have got away from open violence in the last centuries & even decades. Yes, there are people who still glorify it, but it is less & less a law, and more & more an atrophying remain from a more animal state of man.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Re: Incel - personal perspectives

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I think what is fascinating in this story too is that while King has all the worldly power and there is lingering threat that he can order an execution, yet Sheherazade is able by staying as active person to spare herself by telling stories forever and becoming Queen.

I should read these stories as well. I found once grandma's old children's book that told these different stories and it was interesting to find part where book tells about Aladdin's uncle who is actually not his uncle but a magician who has studied over 30 years of occultism and black magic and wants to retrieve the lamp.
This idea of someone pretending to be your uncle is very much like from nightmarish dreams.
7&8
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Peregrina
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Re: Incel - personal perspectives

Post by Peregrina »

Smaragd wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 8:45 pm
Each time I give words to these things, they seem to get some of that mud off. To some it seems like words are a burden themselves and I understand the heaviness coming from words not being enough, and thus having some unnecessary mass on them, but it seems like these perspective might be about the same thing coming from two different directions: words not being enough is the muddyness of expression, and making an effort to lift the swamp monster out many times enough would eventually make words enough. The more occult things we are nearing the harder it seems to give words to them, but I guess everything will have some more or less perfect expression before the whole world is lifted back into non-existence.
Do you think more with pictures or with feelings than with words?

Nefastos wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:52 pm
So I think that the problem is not any particular model of relationship per se, but the possibility to take things as granted too easily. "I like this so it must be right for me", or "this is how my life has gone so this might be how things are", or "this is how my moral teachings go so this is how I must bend myself, however it feels intuitively" are all quite wrong. So, good luck with your quest! In case polyamoric relationships work better than it seems to me, so much the better. The Master knows I'd personally have enough love & semen to give to several partners, if I (and them) could learn to see that as ideal. But as for now, I still tend to think the model of monogamy as the most uplifting one. We shall see!
Yes, we must have some guidelines in order to navigate in this messy state of existence, because we don't have enough capacity to evaluate every situation seperately, though it would be ideal if we could.
Well, romantic/sexual relationships are so big part of our lives, that perhaps they should be one of the things that should be evaluated separately.
Or at least from time to time, I don't think it's beneficial to evaluate every moment of relationship - continuum (I detected a possibility for neurotic overfocusing here) :D
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Insanus
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Re: Incel - personal perspectives

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I also think of polyamory as sort of an ideal. Or perhaps it's more precise to say that I think the way we (read: I) tend to try to control and regulate our emotions and drives to fit in a form of a relationship meaning a set of rules about who you can have sex with and what you are allowed to feel around others has more to do with certainty and safety of the relationship than it has with it's participants no matter what the actual emotional/sexual content is.
The idea of relationship that we have or don't have is a bit alienating, not direct enough. Polyamorous relationship could obviously have the same problem.
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Re: Incel - personal perspectives

Post by Smaragd »

Insanus wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 1:35 pm
I think the way we (read: I) tend to try to control and regulate our emotions and drives to fit in a form of a relationship meaning a set of rules about who you can have sex with and what you are allowed to feel around others has more to do with certainty and safety of the relationship than it has with it's participants no matter what the actual emotional/sexual content is.
The idea of relationship that we have or don't have is a bit alienating, not direct enough. Polyamorous relationship could obviously have the same problem.
For me it’s not so much even about the participants, but the connection that the sexual drive as one part of it is urging me to create. Ofcourse the connection is not detached from the participants, but the will for this wholesome connection is there before I know or have even met a particular individual I see potential to create this connection with. Having such ideas of a relationships can indeed be alienating and I’ve personally failed in relationships partly because of this. It’s the same problem generally with idealism: it has potential to alienate you from the masses who are going to different direction or at least have a large detour in their path to the same direction, while I must choose my individual path. For me monogamous relationships would execute similar ideas within the context of romantic relationship. It’s almost impossible thing, but the need to live meaningful life drives me there, eventhough it might look like insanity given the age we live in. I don’t see it an answer to the problems at all to give up ideals because the ideals also have potential for negative effects. It’s again the same old reactionary mistake.

So there is the area of ideal that hopefully is creating the largest possible potential for the base of the relationship, then there is the area of lower entities that is either alienated from the ideal or if Love can be found, they are the very steps the individuals in the relationships are able to walk towards each other and the ideal, if the philosophy of the ideal is sound to support each others spiritual attainment in the first place. The ”control and regulation” of our emotions points the ideal where such control is no more an act of obsessive (or possessive) regulation, but something meaningful and romantic. If it is seen as control and regulation, then I understand the individual need for polyamory and ofcourse have no problem if somebody other need to approach things in that way. I know the appall towards polyamory is often almost purely fear based, and those who straightforward attack towards that idea are often far from meeting the monogamous ideals I hold myself. But I also believe that somewhere in the back of their minds they have some better understanding the deeper layers of the anger, and thus the anger and resentment is not just fear and small mindedness but a distant echo of what their monogamous relationships could be, and perhaps is at times. Similarly the certainty and safety of monogamous relationships can be seen as something super weak and small minded, but actually in this weakness and safety I see very high potential for actual direct experience and reaching towards love.
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Re: Incel - personal perspectives

Post by Smaragd »

Peregrina wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 9:20 am
Smaragd wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 8:45 pm
Each time I give words to these things, they seem to get some of that mud off. To some it seems like words are a burden themselves and I understand the heaviness coming from words not being enough, and thus having some unnecessary mass on them, but it seems like these perspective might be about the same thing coming from two different directions: words not being enough is the muddyness of expression, and making an effort to lift the swamp monster out many times enough would eventually make words enough. The more occult things we are nearing the harder it seems to give words to them, but I guess everything will have some more or less perfect expression before the whole world is lifted back into non-existence.
Do you think more with pictures or with feelings than with words?
So it seems. It may change according to situations and the sort of objects that spark up the process, but generaly it goes something like this:
1. Some interaction moves objects to my mind.
2. I seek intuitively the most potential connections to it. Here feelings are often the indicators of potential (this is why our words tell alot of our own self and the psyche).
3. I might start seeing images or some happenings in my mind relating to the subject.
4. I try to come up with words to describe the thing, the spirit by the feelings and thoughts connecting to them. Often times longer chains of thought distract me from the initial image or thought I wanted to express and it's hard to clean the idea from all the mud and other tangents I want to express.
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