Sex

Putting together ones life with the modern world.
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Segel
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Re: Sex

Post by Segel »

Thanks for your comment fra Nefastos, there is a lot to think about. Maybe I'll say something back to you here like in five years from now.
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Segel
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Re: Sex

Post by Segel »

Like magic, my eyes and hands gripped this finnish text from "Voice of the silence-commentary book" called "The importance of negative feelings in spiritual development", there was a scripture about "purifying" sexuality (please excuse my translation, i don't know if that text has been translated into english, the writing is in this edition at the end of the book, not in all editions, I think)
I don't know why I haven't read it before but I'm glad that I read it just now when the matter is timely right and question about this stuff is floating in my breathing air, so thanks for that as well fra Nefastos. I would recommend this text to anyone who's thinking about these things.
obnoxion
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Re: Sex

Post by obnoxion »

Segel wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:49 am
...
this finnish text from "Voice of the silence-commentary book" called "The importance of negative feelings in spiritual development"...
This is one of my favourite SoA texts.
One day of Brahma has 14 Indras; his life has 54 000 Indras. One day of Vishnu is the lifetime of Brahma. The lifetime of Vishnu is one day of Shiva.
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Re: Sex

Post by Kavi »

Nefastos wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:10 pm

So, the "danger" is always there, so it seems to be not very hard to understand that for some temperaments, it must somehow be made visibly present, maybe in a form of sadomasochistic play or such playful and fundamentally trusting form of an apparent dark side of erotics? I guess for me this need becomes satisfied simply by the fact that I know and have felt (and even constantly experiencing) that danger of a primal force that it has become as an integral part of the whole erotic play. The edge of the knife is present at all times, the sword of Damocles is hanging above in perpetual danger. Once again this comes back to that awe & terror of the omnipresence of God – who clearly is Satan, in the Old Testament and outside of it.
Personally, for me there is so much life, death and danger in sex at least when it becomes to states which people enter at the moment and after. The word Sword of Damocles describes this very well.
The whole idea of pulling out or consuming emergency contraceptive pills somehow work around probability of life.
Even if people seem to be the most responsible people ever these rational and calculative traits seems to vanish when two step inside the square called bedroom. There is so much of education around this topic about pregnancy that it would feel self-evident to act in safe way. But there seems to be unconscious need to experience this danger and the possibility of life.
Some kind of desire to play with death.
This kind of darker mystery in sex is very terrifying for me.
I associate "primal force" directly to these kinds of things too. There seems to be need to experience this primal force but at the same time desire or wish to kill the results of it in the aftermath.
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Zeraim
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Re: Sex

Post by Zeraim »

It has been fascinating to read this thread (and for example The Holy Trinity of Death, Sex & Satan). For me, during my teenage years, satanism became interesting probably mainly because of the guilt of sexuality. The guilt had became suffocating during the years of studying theosophy and yoga.

I admit that sexuality and love has played major part in my life and I might have even been bit controlled by them during different phases. Plus being polyamorous from childhood, they has also caused some problems, especially my earlier life.

It might be just me and my own shame & guilt, but for me consciously practising sexual/tantric practices have been necessary to get past of sexual obsessions during astral trips and lucid dreams (yes, sex still happens there too sometimes) and enable me to feel very profound experiences of love even without any desire for physical sex. And the practices have enabled me to sometimes have series of rising orgasms without ejaculation, sometimes even without touching - just experiencing a connection/merging of two consciousness.

Now I experience sex and passion as one of the greatest sources of inspiration, development and happiness. In my case I really consider sex as one of the most pleasurable, authentic and natural ways for my occult practice. I feel that sex can really change the perception and consciousness and our energetic body. It has provided very transcended experiences and I consider it one of the key factors for these first few steps I have been able to take on my path.

ps. Just for the clarification, I still have “normal physical sex” too.
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Peregrina
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Re: Sex

Post by Peregrina »

I find sexuality quite troublesome for many reasons: The incontrollable nature of it, the power over you your desire gives to the object of your desire, jealousy, the suffering of the lack of intimacy..
This issue with power has been my number one concern in recent years regarding sexuality, along with the questions of how to protect yourself from the negative suggestions a sexual energetic bond might transfer, or could erotic fantasies somehow pass some walls of subconscious and become suggestions and manifest themselves in physical reality.
Is it the intention that makes the difference between sexual fantasy and a visualisation for achievement?
What if your intentions are unclear and chaotic, could it lead sexual fantasies leaking to the spiritual practise side?
Or perhaps it's the fear of it that causes the very thing?
Just the mass of questions and no answers, as usual..
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Nefastos
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Re: Sex

Post by Nefastos »

Malja wrote:
Sat May 09, 2020 1:01 pm
I find sexuality quite troublesome for many reasons:

One common reason for the eighth cardinal sin of Despair (and the usual answer to it, one's badly chosen Pride not to tackle with the problematic questions at all!) comes from this heaviness of multilayered problems. There are so many different problems all heaped upon each other, that they finally seem to form one amorphous impossible opponent best left alone. This is where the analytic, kâma-manasic thinking is our best asset: to vivisect that shoggoth into its different basic principles & go through them one by one separately, as far as it is possible.

Malja wrote:
Sat May 09, 2020 1:01 pm
The incontrollable nature of it, the power over you your desire gives to the object of your desire, jealousy, the suffering of the lack of intimacy..

In this we already have several different parts to consider.

"The incontrollable nature of it": This is actually a very good demand of practice. I think I would be quite intolerable person, would there not have been such bringer of incontrollable aspect in my life. It would feel to be so great to be able to in control in one's life totally, but alas, that will never happen. Even an adept is a juggler of forces, not their omnipotent maker & controller. We will remain, absolutely, just a part of cosmos as a whole.

"the power over you your desire gives to the object of your desire": In the part above the Other was cosmos itself, and we know (do we?) that the cosmos as a whole is wiser than us. But in this part, where the Other is also just "someone other", a person with his or her own flaws, we'll have extra difficulty to deal with problems that are also that person's very personal shortcomings. This brings us also to a kind of karma yoga. Plus, it necessitates also a form of gnana yoga, to learn where that process of sexual relationship is mutually benefactory, and at what point it becomes too problematic to continue. Love would "conquer all", but that love would have to be very uplifting and beautiful kind of selfless love given to the process by both, and if one and/or other is too bound to his or her personal problems to "purify the lust" (to use the expression from the Catechism of Lucifer), the relationship is doomed, and the great solvent – love – cannot make it work. For that love would be lonely love, and fighting against "the fifth principle".

"jealousy": An animal trait that we must simply dissolve within us completely. This is one of those feelings out of which nothing good will come. It is similarly utterly bad feeling that the urge to violence or lie is; it must be wholly renewed in order to grow spiritually. Yes, it is understandable. But even for profanes, such a trait would create tremendous amounts of sorrow. Occultists cannot let themselves remain is such selfish emotions without slipping from the path of ascension. By this I don't mean we should remain unaffected in situations which belong to the area of jealousy. Rather, we should make those as situations of choice, where we either remain in relationship, or consider it ended, because our partner seems not committed enough. In case the partner is committed and we still feel jealous, we are asses. In case the partner is not committed and we remain in the relationship, likewise.

"the suffering of the lack of intimacy": Pretty much the same as 1 & 2 above. That is, we must consider if this is problematic because of our own neurotic need for control (in which case we must learn to leave this personal preference in the best ways possible), or is it because we actually have partners who do not respect these needs for intimacy in a way that would be uplifting. Perhaps our partners have been needlessly clumsy or selfish, perhaps we ourselves have been clumsy and selfish, and thus what could in other relationships be comforting and tender, has become a source of anguish. In that case, the problem is not sex itself, but having sex with wrong people. In that case one should ask from oneself: Why do I end up having sex with wrong kind of people? Why do I attract this kind of problematic minds? Can I do something differently, to find a person whose intimate touch would be blessing instead of a curse? This is, naturally, often a very long path. For what makes me sexually interesting to certain kind of people is a very subtle psycho-energetical message. Those are very hard to change. Yet that is possible.

Malja wrote:
Sat May 09, 2020 1:01 pm
This issue with power has been my number one concern

Yes, sex is very much connected to power. As one's own shakti, "the sex" (libido) really is very much the same as one's power reserve. But this is indeed the very reason why it must not be confused to power to affect other people. To use sexuality as a some kind of tool of controlling others is, sorry to say it bluntly, very black magic. Sexuality should be just the opposite: to release the power in one's self and the others.

Malja wrote:
Sat May 09, 2020 1:01 pm
in recent years regarding sexuality, along with the questions of how to protect yourself from the negative suggestions a sexual energetic bond might transfer

Coming back to the two-foldness of earlier questions. That is: is this really a problem of sexuality, or is this a problem of having sexual relationship with a wrong person?

Malja wrote:
Sat May 09, 2020 1:01 pm
or could erotic fantasies somehow pass some walls of subconscious and become suggestions and manifest themselves in physical reality.

As an occultist, I would definitely answer: yes, our astral feelings definitely affect our physical and psychological field. Opposite to how the profane mind thinks, these two kingdoms of physical & imaginative are not hermetically sealed from each other, but are in very intimate relationship, like the mother and the foetus. This does not mean that whatever we think is the same we would do in a physical world, but these do interact. Thus it might be wise to try to elevate not only one's physical sexuality to be kind & loving, but also do that to one's fantasies. This might demand some work and bridging of energies, so, a lot of time, once again. But this might be the best direction.

Malja wrote:
Sat May 09, 2020 1:01 pm
Is it the intention that makes the difference between sexual fantasy and a visualisation for achievement?

To a great degree, but not absolutely just so.

Malja wrote:
Sat May 09, 2020 1:01 pm
What if your intentions are unclear and chaotic, could it lead sexual fantasies leaking to the spiritual practise side?

Yes. But that is no reason to panic. Such work needs time and tenderness also towards oneself.

Malja wrote:
Sat May 09, 2020 1:01 pm
Or perhaps it's the fear of it that causes the very thing?

Exactly, or mostly so. That's the reason for cursive above.

Malja wrote:
Sat May 09, 2020 1:01 pm
Just the mass of questions and no answers, as usual..

With a carefully construced set of questions, we usually have half an answer already. Like said, the real problem would be to leave the amorphous monster grow within, because it seems too hard to wrestle with. That easily brings about the death of soul (i.e. of one's psychic integrity), whatever the problem.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Smaragd
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Re: Sex

Post by Smaragd »

Malja wrote:
Sat May 09, 2020 1:01 pm
The incontrollable nature of it, the power over you your desire gives to the object of your desire--
To see the positive side of this, isn’t it one of the most romantic things and something one could be eager to do for the loved one. It connects to the need for intimacy; "she" is the very nature of intimacy, and "he" approaching surrenders his sword on her lap. With wholesome striving (or in more laymen terms/ways of will to do good/well) from both, the surrender becomes a fruitful matrimony and not something where the given powers are left to rot away. It would be very important to create and find a vocabulary in the relationship where such energetic things can be discussed and understood. Ofcourse honesty and capabilities for self-reflection are must things also.
Nefastos wrote:
Sat May 09, 2020 2:47 pm

"jealousy": An animal trait that we must simply dissolve within us completely. This is one of those feelings out of which nothing good will come. It is similarly utterly bad feeling that the urge to violence or lie is; it must be wholly renewed in order to grow spiritually. Yes, it is understandable. But even for profanes, such a trait would create tremendous amounts of sorrow. Occultists cannot let themselves remain is such selfish emotions without slipping from the path of ascension. By this I don't mean we should remain unaffected in situations which belong to the area of jealousy. Rather, we should make those as situations of choice, where we either remain in relationship, or consider it ended, because our partner seems not committed enough. In case the partner is committed and we still feel jealous, we are asses. In case the partner is not committed and we remain in the relationship, likewise.
Sometimes jealousy takes less intense forms, that may reveal some expectations that have not been discussed and levelled with the partner. In these lesser forms it may very well speak of the need to discuss of what the relationship means to each other and how far should the borders of intimacy reach for both to feel comfortable and their expectations and views of a relationship respected/agreed upon. And indeed it might be that views on these things differs greatly, making it often a dividing question.
Malja wrote:
Sat May 09, 2020 1:01 pm
This issue with power has been my number one concern in recent years regarding sexuality, along with the questions of how to protect yourself from the negative suggestions a sexual energetic bond might transfer, or could erotic fantasies somehow pass some walls of subconscious and become suggestions and manifest themselves in physical reality.
Is it the intention that makes the difference between sexual fantasy and a visualisation for achievement?
Nefastos wrote:
Sat May 09, 2020 2:47 pm
Yes, sex is very much connected to power. As one's own shakti, "the sex" (libido) really is very much the same as one's power reserve. But this is indeed the very reason why it must not be confused to power to affect other people. To use sexuality as a some kind of tool of controlling others is, sorry to say it bluntly, very black magic. Sexuality should be just the opposite: to release the power in one's self and the others.
As fra Nefastos also agreed, yes intention, what about the other things? Well, the field of this may be very vast and trying to go in to specifics is easily a shot in the dark, but erotic fantasies and their consequences is something I’ve troubled my thoughts with quite alot, so I could try to look in to those. The problem has been that I can not fully escape the meanings a sexual fantasy takes. It can not be fully meaningless or ”profane”. The power goes somewhere whether we are to aim it or not. How does one go about releasing the power and not bind it to form? Isn’t all fantasies in a form and thus by being of erotic nature and loaded with sexual powers binding in nature? I’ve not yet come to the full answer with this, but one thing that seems like a half an answer is that I need to give the form a meaning that is not bound to control anyone or anything specific. But as a form, the erotic fantasy necessarily controls something, thus to make a form formelss, the fantasy needs to have a meaning that is more abstract and thus able to release the powers in to the flight of the spirit – an "ideal" above form, which then channels the powers further elevating them, releasing the body bound powers in to the ”air”. Which is very close to the free profane experience of sex apart from fantasies. I assume the elevation is in this abstraction?

Lets take a coarse example of one fantasizing in an effortless manner (the fantasy coming by itself, while the active part is finding its meaning) of ones partner in white night gown. One may be left on the surface level of her having the night gown on and actively fetishising the form in the color, ”it must happen like this”. This sort of thing easily feels suffocating and thus I take it to be negatively binding to form. To make it elevating could be, in my mind and interpretation, connecting the whiteness to my anima and thus the whole sexual dynamism (the whole relationship is soaked in more or less obviously) is potentially elevated in its interactions and physical sexual encounters on to intimate levels of the two souls. The otherness outside connects to the otherness inside. I know there are great big trap in these thoughts, and would advice to take my words with much caution. There are many things that can be overlooked here, and this is just something I’ve come up by myself so there’s no tradition observing these ideas found from my drunken idealism of romantic love.

Then there is the classic broken heart syndrome. Falling for someone half-consciously in such a way has equally negative effects if the trust placed for the partner is given in the blindness of love. I guess that is usually the only way there is anyway, but the precautions should propably happen before falling in love in the first place. I have had my share of disintegrated ways to approach relationships and sex, but on the quest for learning to truly love someone and burning to know what it truly is and what it really means, not coming down to mere crushes and lust, neighter purely the highest kind of love, I have found that the spark and romantic interest towards people, for me, is hidden in the potential the relationship hides for wholesome striving towards god. That is what largely creates the tensions that grasps me these days, or rather builds the rock on which the tension is able to appear. Thus falling in love is partly for me something that I have to allow myself to indulge in with the right person, and it asks for immense amount of trust towards the other. Falling is trusting, even if the trust leans on imperfections, as it should in the high idealism to find the true way into it.
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Nefastos
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Re: Sex

Post by Nefastos »

Smaragd wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 2:52 pm
Sometimes jealousy takes less intense forms, that may reveal some expectations that have not been discussed and levelled with the partner. In these lesser forms it may very well speak of the need to discuss of what the relationship means to each other and how far should the borders of intimacy reach for both to feel comfortable and their expectations and views of a relationship respected/agreed upon. And indeed it might be that views on these things differs greatly, making it often a dividing question.

You are absolutely right. With my very severe attitude against jealousy, I meant it as an emotion we'd haven given in; a feeling that controls us, instead of us noticing it and then starting to work from that ground. But when taken as an indication to discuss something, it can be very good thing to register, and act accordingly. Similarly to the two other very negative things I chose to side with this: feelings that push us toward violence and lying. In case we register such feelings but choose to use them as a fuel for more communication instead of less, such devils end up making us service. (Concerning the first, this would be open about the things that make us angry; concerning the second, this would be the often long process of unraveling those tangled masses of emotions & subtle facts that seemed to be better/easier to just pass by with a lie.) By jealousy as something altogether bad I meant accepting jealousy as a neutral or even good trait, which seems to be almost like a norm: people think it's a natural or even endearing feeling, a sign for caring about the other.

Jealousy is also much more than just a sexual thing. People who have gained some small portion of knowledge often refuse to share it with the others, feeling jealous for that tiny bit they have achieved. It's the same spasm of selfishness: "this is so dear to me that you cannot have it; I will barely let you glance upon it". There are temperaments that can only appreciate something they have that the others don't, because that makes them feel worthy. This is something I truly despise, for it is evil in its pettiest form, taken apart from all that could be beautiful and uplifting. (Our Finnish culture has a lot of this particular evil trait, to the degree that the mythological study even has a name for the superstitious principle behind it: "onnen vakioisuuden periaate".)
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Re: Sex

Post by lux ferre »

Today people when they talk about sex it is just One night stands sex is more that its truly if two people love each others they find deep beutiful connection and then it much more it felt like Time stop and there is only this beutifull moment. jealosy I dont understand because relationship sharing is caring if you can communicate your partner and solve all problemas and speak truth then the relationship will last and love two people never dies maybe I am just romantic person who truly belive love first sight and love is One of universe powerefull force
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